Thoughts on ATI/NVidia, 5850/5870....

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: gorobei
waiting for juniper and better/custom cooling from xfx or sapphire.

Speaking of custom cooled versions, here is a pic of the Vapor-X cooled 5870. Looks pretty 'industrial' to me.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Extrem1st
$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

We need these guys to make some money, if they don't make money then they can't fund R&D on next-gen products to the level needed to make them as awesome of a product as we'd like them to be. ASP's to date have been borderline non-profit for both companies. That isn't sustainable.

 

[error8]

Originally posted by: Extrem1st

$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

Imagine yourself as being the head of AMD and your company managed to put onto the market the first dx 11 card and the fastest single GPU card. Now, would you sell the card to a very low price, to help the poor gamers, or would you charge more for it, just because you can? Hard call, huh?
This is marketing and it's the way it works. Now we'll have to wait for Nvidia's GT300, to start seeing price drops all over the place, but until then, AMD will do anything it like with prices, because there is no competition at this time, unfortunelly.

 

[error8]

*dp

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Extrem1st
$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

We need these guys to make some money, if they don't make money then they can't fund R&D on next-gen products to the level needed to make them as awesome of a product as we'd like them to be. ASP's to date have been borderline non-profit for both companies. That isn't sustainable.

Yeah, he's bellyaching about something so trivial, I also don't remember anyone saying it was definitely going to be $299

Besides, there's the 5850 which is $259, $40 less than that $299 price point for the 2nd fastest GPU on the market. Of which, when the 4870 debuted it was a distant 2nd to the GTX280. So pay $379 now for the fastest GPU, or $259 for the second fastest, whereas back during the 4800 launch it was pay $649 for the fastest GPU, or $299 for the second fastest.

Price/performance of these parts is right in line with what the 4800s offered when they came out. If $259 is still too much you can always find a 4890 for ~$170 or a 4870 for ~$130-150.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Extrem1st
$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

We need these guys to make some money, if they don't make money then they can't fund R&D on next-gen products to the level needed to make them as awesome of a product as we'd like them to be. ASP's to date have been borderline non-profit for both companies. That isn't sustainable.

Yeah, he's bellyaching about something so trivial, I also don't remember anyone saying it was definitely going to be $299

Besides, there's the 5850 which is $259, $40 less than that $299 price point for the 2nd fastest GPU on the market. Of which, when the 4870 debuted it was a distant 2nd to the GTX280. So pay $379 now for the fastest GPU, or $259 for the second fastest, whereas back during the 4800 launch it was pay $649 for the fastest GPU, or $299 for the second fastest.

Price/performance of these parts is right in line with what the 4800s offered when they came out. If $259 is still too much you can always find a 4890 for ~$170 or a 4870 for ~$130-150.

I was going to wait for a 5850, but I'm about to pull the trigger on a Sapphire Vapor-X 4890 for $151. I'll take the $100 savings over the performance increase - the Vapor-X 4890 overclocks right around GTX 285 speeds, so I should be good for a while.

 

[flexy]

$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

relatively cheap for being the top of the top high end card ATM.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: error8
It doesn't matter what case you have and how long it is. If you want to buy the card it seems silly that the case will stop you from doing it. Cut the hard drive cages, put the drives somewhere else or just get a longer case, it's just as simple as that. There are countless of cheap cases that have the airflow and possibilities to "shelter" a 5870 long card. And I don't know, but putting everything else inside a newer case, it's just pure fun. I would love doing it.

I hate it because of exactly that problem. See, my case is SO tight that i cannot even "just take the motherboard out. Its literally impossible to easily grab the mobo and "pull it out", there is not even room for the fingers to grab the board.

The last time i did it (for reapplying thermal compound) i had to lift the board grabbing it at the CPU cooler to even get the board out - what's bad enough.

A simple operation just like switching SATA port or replacing a card turns out a 2hr operation - not because i am a moron who cant replace a simple card, but it takes forever to squeeze a connector back in on the side. It took me literally 30min to simply try to plug the SATA connector back in.

The GTX275...it took me about 30mins because i was convinced first it wouldnt fit...but then it "somehow" fit in the case by lowering it down in the case at some odd angle and turn it once it was inside.

It was also a "fun" experience to replace my PSU once (because it blew up)...on the pic you can see there is a steel-bar which made it literally impossible to just pull out the PSU w/o entirely removing the whole board...

Since i did NOT want to remove the board just to replace the PSU (using the hardcore method with the CPU coler as "handle")....i already did some case "hard mod" with pliers and tools and removed that bar....which at least enabled me to pull out the PSU.

Sorry..OT..but yes...people check your cases before you get such monster cards, otherwise you MIGHT be in for some surprises.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: Kakkoii

Originally posted by: tommo123
why would CUDA matter now? can't you run openCL on any DX11 GPU? physics is also a part of DX11 right?

Lol, "physics" is not a part of DX11. DX11 introduces a new DirectCompute API, that allows you to use DX11 to do general computing on a GPU's shaders. So through this, you could port a physics engine to DirectCompute, and have it run on the GPU, like PhysX does.

Here's to hoping nvidia ports PhysX to DirectCompute or OpenCL. Although I highly doubt it.


And CUDA has gained a lot of ground in other industries apart from gaming. So it still matters for many others who aren't just gamers:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home.html

Yes i wish video encoding developers will (hopefully) jump on the OpenCL bandwagon since propriety stuff like CUDA is always bad - would be a huge plus for ATI/AMD.

not using the power of a $300-$400 video card which makes it possible to encode 20x faster...or things like ray tracing etc..etc... ----> huge potential.

 

[lopri]

I was initially disappointed at the pricing, but now that the review is out and the details are known I think the price of 5870 is very fair. As a matter of fact it is the lowest MSRP I can remember for an indisputable performance leader, which also sport a major next gen API and has fixed almost all short-comings of previous gen products.

From $379 it may go up or down depending on supply and demand. Let's hope the supply will improve and price will come down sooner or later. Compare this to, say, Intel's CPU pricing ($300, $500, $1000) which doesn't move regardless of demand, and I am glad that we have a strong competition in GPU market.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Extrem1st

Originally posted by: flexy
*) early benchmarks look impressive, but tell me the number of people who run 2560x 8AA 16AF....respective the nr. of people who own displays who can even take such a resolution...

*) $399 is actually surprisingly cheap....wonder how much NV wants for their DX11 cards

*) DX11 is not getting interesting for a few months ----> expect even more price drops. Dont tell me graphics cards get more expensive....usually they DONT

*) You will laugh, but i really started to <3 CUDA on my 275, and together with lack of "3d Vision" i think the lack of CUDA seriously sucks for the ATI cards.

I just encoded a few videos to H264 with 60-70 FPS, about 20x speed of normal CPU based encoding..it just fricking rocks. There is still potential since CUDA development/support is still in early stages...would just hate to get a new DX11 ATI card and not have CUDA ;(

(I know there is an ATI equivalent...but i dont know how many codecs/apps support this)

F.

$399 is not cheap, it was suppose to be $299, but AMD wanted to price gouge, screw you AMD.

You wouldn't happen to be affiliated with Nvidia, would you? It seems like a few of new members joined lately just to bash the 58x0 launch...

 

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
You wouldn't happen to be affiliated with Nvidia, would you? It seems like a few of new members joined lately just to bash the 58x0 launch...

There's a new generation of ATi cards launching. Obviously there's no chance new people join AT forums to express their opinion on it... :disgust: Be it positive or negative? Let's start asking people who have a few posts only but glorify the new cards if they're affiliated with AMD, shall we?

 

[yacoub]

What's REALLY annoying are the handful of fanboys who are jumping down his throat for noting the well-known pricing discrepancy, particularly given even the Anandtech article noted the discrepancy (iirc) of the original pricing anticipated of $199 and $299, and the launch pricing actually being $259 and $399 for the two cards respectively.

 

[MarcVenice]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: IlllI

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Here's a thought. I'd love to upgrade to the HD 5870, but I just realized that at 11 inches long, it probably won't fit in my case.

thats what she said!

I like it when people avoid buying 400$ videocards, just because they don't fit into 40$ cases. Very smart indeed.

Uhhh Antec's P182/P183 is not a $40 case. 11" cards are difficult for a lot of cases that also feature removable drive cages.

Also to the guy saying do you need all your drive cages? I have 2TB of storage thanks to my Raptor 74gb, Seagate 320, WD 640gb, WD 1TB. Sure I can go out and snag a new $300 WD 2TB drive but seriously? Let me use my old drives first.

Convert a 5.25" drivebay to a 3,5"-drivebay ? Voila ...

Even if your not awed by the new cards power, at least consider the fact what it's doing to the prices of other videocards. In europe a HD 5850 now costs less then 200 euro's. Cheapest GTX 285 is selling for 265 euro's ! The GTX 285 would have to drop to 165 euro's to be competitive.

Same for the GTX 295, selling for 385 euro's, HD 5870 selling for 285 euro's. GTX 295 would have to drop roughly 100 euro's to be competitive. Although the GTX 295 is slightly faster, it uses more power and of course lacks dx 11...

 

[n7]

The funny thing is that i'm a longtime 2560x1600 user, but i'm not getting this right away, if at all.

Don't really need an upgrade for the games i play.

Eyefinity, or more specifically, the ability to simultaneously run more than two displays (without needing Matrox/2 cards/CF or SLI sandwich cards), is very much of interest to me though.

Just will be waiting for pricing to settle down, or for a game that makes me want more performance.

 

[machineheadg2rr]

When I first read about eyefinity I thought to myself where the heck am I getting money for 2 more monitors, I can barely afford the card. Although it showed off the horsepower the new amd cards have, it just seemed like an overpriced gimmick. But then the other night I gave it real thought, and although i have not yet tested it, I think it is possibly a big upgrade to the overall gaming experience if games are written to take advantage of it. Now we just need lcd prices to keep dropping.....

 

[justinmdeq]

I think the radeon 5870 is a complete success. I do like ATI alot, but thats only because all of my friends were and still are idiots over the years. 5 of my friends are hardcore gamers just like me, but they had complete and utter blind faith that Nvidia was superior in every way to ATI cards, for YEARS. I liked Nvidia too, but over the years ive build computers with ATI cards and benchmarked just to show them that they were wrong sometimes. I finally got 2 of my friends to actually read reviews on websites before purchasing a card from now on, and they got ati cards for thier respective price points ( 4870 and 4890 ). Anyways, I am not an ATI fanboy, because I do like Nvidia alot. Alls im going to say here is that the 5870 launch is incredible, and im not dissapointed one bit. Performance at 30%???? That is a joke, look at more reviews than just 1 website, and you will average about 40%. Add overclocking for another 5-7%, and BOOM, you virtually have a 50% improvment. Plus people obviously dont understand, these are BETA drivers. In a month or 2, we WILL see at LEAST 10% or possibly more improvement, its GOING to happen. I had a 4870 before my computer got stolen by my ex, and I would have never imagined the performance improvements I got after time with that card. Not to mention you get DX11 support, which is a big deal, and eyefinity. This is the most impressive launch ive seen ATI do in a long time. Honestly, I really hope Nvidia comes out with a nice card line to fight ATI with, and I hope the top of the line single card doesnt cost $600. We as consumers can only benifit.

- Why cant we just all get along??? /wink

 

[yacoub]

So did these numbers prove true?
http://images.dailytech.com/ni..._large_5800%20comp.JPG

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: yacoub
So did these numbers prove true?
http://images.dailytech.com/ni..._large_5800%20comp.JPG

You'd really have to go through and find each game and the settings used in various review sites.

The Crysis Warhead bar looks accurate.
The Far Cry 2 bar looks accurate.
The Prey 4xAA bar looks accurate, no idea about the 8xAA bar
The Call of Duty 4 bar looks close, possibly exaggerated
The CoD WaW bar looks conservative, actually.
The ET: Quake Wars bar does not look accurate.


This is just a sample. If you really want to know, then do some work! For reference I have been using numbers to estimate the performance from the Anandtech, Xbitlabs, and Techpowerup HD5870 reviews.

 

[Imported]

With the cards with 1xHDMI, 2xDVI, 1xDisplayPort.. could I theoretically run 4 screens? I'd love to be able to run three 24" LCDs and also connect a 42" LCDTV.

 

[Munky]

I thought the 5870 launch was a success, both from the card's technical perspective, and because it was an actual hard launch. The price is reasonable too, especially compared to what Nvidia charged for their new gen card when they were first to market. Good job AMD!

 

[heyheybooboo]

ATI/nVidia is a lot more vicious than Intel/AMD. Amirite ??? :laugh:

I spent the morning plowing through the AT article ---- great job as always though kinda snarky in some places.

Best I can tell the HD5870 length is 10.5 inches - same as the GTX275. So the poster saying 'check your case' and '11 inches' just ain't right.

What I think as something way less than an early adopter who does not game: AMD is holding something back. The HD 5870 costs $100+ less than the GTX295 and they just didn't want to 'go there'. They seem to be fighting this battle on price points, I'm guessing, to fight for more market. Good for AMD they got some Dell OEM business.

I think the HD 5870 is positioned against the GTX285 (and it seems from checking prices this AM has succeeded in knocking down '285' prices $30 or so). My best guess is the 5870 will settle in between $290-$340 when all the 'new' wears off and that we will see 1) a 'higher binned' HD 5890; and/or 2) a HD5870x2 positioned between the GTX295 and GT300 (if we ever see it --- LOL) to put a real 'squeeze' on the GTX295.

When the HD 5850 rolls at $260 (and settles at $190-$220) the GTX 285 & 275 get the squeeze from Juniper (starting at $220 and dropping to $160-$180) AND the HD 4890s (dropped now to $170 or the 4870s creeping below $140).

2 x 4870s at $300 versus 1 HD 5870 at $300 seems about right to me (but like I said I'm no gamer over here).


And the guy going on with CUDA ""20x speed of normal CPU based encoding"" needs to show us the facts or STFU. Feel free to show us that unedited Bada-bust LQ 320x240 test that does not come close to your inflated bull ....

nVidia's own website notes "" Up to 11X Faster H.264 Video Encoding "" with the $500 Elemental Accelerator, $800 Quadro graphics board and $700 Premiere Pro CS4.

And if you look at the chart at the bottom of the page you can see how much fudge is in that "" Up to 11x "".

 

[bimmerboy]

just took a look at newegg and 5870 just came and took a dump on gtx 285's price bracket.

edit:

was looking at another post in this thread referring to crysis and i removed it as it wasn't pertinent to my response

 

[yacoub]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Best I can tell the HD5870 length is 10.5 inches - same as the GTX275. So the poster saying 'check your case' and '11 inches' just ain't right.

If the card is 10.5" you will need 11" to comfortably install it so it's not wedged in there.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Here's a thought. I'd love to upgrade to the HD 5870, but I just realized that at 11 inches long, it probably won't fit in my case.

My wife almost didn't marry me for that exact same reason...

edit: damnit, IlllI, you beat me to it!!