Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

[DCal430]

So looks like the Supremes might hear a case on Affirmative Action this session, wondering what everyone thinks.

IMHO I think affirmative action has no place in our society. Their is no reason why one person should get preferential treatment over another group, simply based on race and that is what AA does. Why should a wealthy African American get preferred treatment in college admission over a Southeast Asian American from a poor family. I do think economic background should be considered though, those who overcame poverty and what not should have that taken into account.

 

[shortylickens]

My thoughts are: Its the genesis of more trolling than intellectual debate on any given forum.

 

[SheHateMe]

Lets see, you don't provide information about the case. Then, you immediately go into how bad it is, in your opinion.

Provide context, please.

By the way, Affirmative Action is not simply based on race. Get your facts straight, please.


Actually, nevermind, this thread is doomed anyway. Wait until the usual suspects get here.

 

[Moonbeam]

Racial disparities

See also: Racial inequality in the United States

When it comes to identifying issues that create and contribute to ongoing wealth inequality in the United States, it is also important to observe issues that surround the disparity in wealth between different racial groups. There are many factors involved, but inheritance might be the most important factor. Direct transfer of unused wealth/resources from a parent to a child provides them the opportunity to pay off debts and increase equity.

Inheritance therefore takes on a special meaning when considering the wealth gap between blacks and whites in today’s world because it can directly link the disadvantaged economic position and prospects of today's blacks to the disadvantaged positions of their parents' and grandparents' generations. According to a report done by Robert B. Avery and Michael S. Rendall, one in three white households will receive a substantial inheritance during their lifetime compared to only one in ten black households.[28]

This relative lack of inheritance that has been observed among African Americans can be attributed in large part to factors such as- unpaid labor (slavery), violent destruction of personal property in incidents such as Red Summer of 1919, unequal opportunity in education and employment (racial discrimination), and more recent policies such as redlining and planned shrinkage. To put it succinctly a relative lack of accumulated wealth can be attributed in large part to Racism in the United States.[citation needed] Other ethnic minorities, particularly those with darker complexions, have at times faced many of these same adversities to various degrees.[29]

 

[xBiffx]

After clicking on the link in the OP I can definitely see where he is coming from.

At least its in the right sub-forum. That's an affirmative action.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The answer is "it depends". When there was institutionalized discrimination then there was merit to the idea. Now we still have problems but they tend to be more individual in nature, and the idea that one is "entitled" has caused a lot of headaches. Higher education has fits with this.

 

[DCal430]

Lets see, you don't provide information about the case. Then, you immediately go into how bad it is, in your opinion.

Provide context, please.

By the way, Affirmative Action is not simply based on race. Get your facts straight, please.


Actually, nevermind, this thread is doomed anyway. Wait until the usual suspects get here.

I am talking about Race based Affirmative Action here, that should be clear.

Fact is Affirmative Action has a detrimental affect on impoverish Asians, which is why our population in colleges increased in California after 209 passed.

 

[shortylickens]

The answer is "it depends". When there was institutionalized discrimination then there was merit to the idea. Now we still have problems but they tend to be more individual in nature, and the idea that one is "entitled" has caused a lot of headaches. Higher education has fits with this.

Yeah I think the entitlement mentality is the real problem in America. And it creates trickle down issues with all sorts of other things, Affirmative Action probably being the least serious of them.

 

[SheHateMe]

I am talking about Race based Affirmative Action here, that should be clear.

Fact is Affirmative Action has a detrimental affect on impoverish Asians, which is why our population in colleges increased in California after 209 passed.

Their is no reason why one person should get preferential treatment over another group, simply based on race and that is what AA does.

Then you should be been more clear instead of appearing to make a generalized statement about AA.


I'd be interested in know how exactly AA has been detrimental to impoverished Asians? They are a minority group. If that is a fact, as you say, I'd like to see a source on it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Thoughts on Affirmative Action?

It is institutionalized racism.

 

[Screech]

Then you should be been more clear instead of appearing to make a generalized statement about AA.


I'd be interested in know how exactly AA has been detrimental to impoverished Asians? They are a minority group. If that is a fact, as you say, I'd like to see a source on it.

AA doesn't help minorities generally so much as underrepresented minorities. Right now a lot of colleges in california (UC anyway) are heavily asian (ie, they are not underrepresented, generally speaking). With AA, you had more black/latino representation and as a result lower asian representation (those spots in the classroom don't come out of thin air -- someone is being replaced).

I had a friend in undergrad who was filipino who hated prop 209 though -- apparently, of asian races, filipino was underrepresented and AA helped them, but after prop 209, their enrollment fell because chinese, japanese, and possibly korean students started to push them out so to speak.

There is no free lunch.

edit: I should add: getting rid of AA didn't mean the school got whiter so much as it got a lot more chinese/japanese/korean and a lot less black/latino. I think its kinda funny when people talk about AA as if it was about white people as a result (not saying that is going on here).

 

[Matt1970]

Hiring someone based of the color of their skin vs. the qualifications they possess is called discrimination reguardless of which skin color you are trying to advance.

 

[Nintendesert]

Since I benefit from AA I completely agree with it and think we need more!

 

[Matt1970]

Since I benefit from AA I completely agree with it and think we need more!

I guess it depends on what you do. If you are an iron worker 30 floors up depending on others for safety, basically your life in other people's hands, do you want the best qualified person up there or do you want ethnic diversity? That can go either way. What of you have 3 positions to fill and your best 3 candidates just happen to be black but by law you are required to hire 1 African American, 1 Latino and 1 Asian?

 

[WackyDan]

There was a point in time when affirmative action was needed. It had merit. Today, it is abused, causes far more legal head ache than need be and there are enough labor laws in effect that address the needs anyway.

I say drop the policy of affirmative action and let the individual stand on their own. Let the long list of labor laws be applied and not some legacy, antiquated policy such as AA.

 

[Moonbeam]

Racial disparities

See also: Racial inequality in the United States

When it comes to identifying issues that create and contribute to ongoing wealth inequality in the United States, it is also important to observe issues that surround the disparity in wealth between different racial groups. There are many factors involved, but inheritance might be the most important factor. Direct transfer of unused wealth/resources from a parent to a child provides them the opportunity to pay off debts and increase equity.

Inheritance therefore takes on a special meaning when considering the wealth gap between blacks and whites in today’s world because it can directly link the disadvantaged economic position and prospects of today's blacks to the disadvantaged positions of their parents' and grandparents' generations. According to a report done by Robert B. Avery and Michael S. Rendall, one in three white households will receive a substantial inheritance during their lifetime compared to only one in ten black households.[28]

This relative lack of inheritance that has been observed among African Americans can be attributed in large part to factors such as- unpaid labor (slavery), violent destruction of personal property in incidents such as Red Summer of 1919, unequal opportunity in education and employment (racial discrimination), and more recent policies such as redlining and planned shrinkage. To put it succinctly a relative lack of accumulated wealth can be attributed in large part to Racism in the United States.[citation needed] Other ethnic minorities, particularly those with darker complexions, have at times faced many of these same adversities to various degrees.[29]

Hehehehe, I like the answers you've gotten to this. It used to be a good idea but causes problems today. Maybe somebody could argue that racism used to be a bad idea but causes problems today. I think, Moonbeam, you are talking to people who have already made up their minds to be blind.

 

[SheHateMe]

Hehehehe, I like the answers you've gotten to this. It used to be a good idea but causes problems today. Maybe somebody could argue that racism used to be a bad idea but causes problems today. I think, Moonbeam, you are talking to people who have already made up their minds to be blind.

You're a riot, Moonbeam! lol

 

[Svnla]

Darn it. I want AA in sports. I want a certain percentage of Asians and Latinos in pro football and basketball or else. Let have "ethic diversity" and "multicultural", shall we?

<sarcastic>

 

[DCal430]

AA doesn't help minorities generally so much as underrepresented minorities. Right now a lot of colleges in california (UC anyway) are heavily asian (ie, they are not underrepresented, generally speaking). With AA, you had more black/latino representation and as a result lower asian representation (those spots in the classroom don't come out of thin air -- someone is being replaced).

I had a friend in undergrad who was filipino who hated prop 209 though -- apparently, of asian races, filipino was underrepresented and AA helped them, but after prop 209, their enrollment fell because chinese, japanese, and possibly korean students started to push them out so to speak.

There is no free lunch.

edit: I should add: getting rid of AA didn't mean the school got whiter so much as it got a lot more chinese/japanese/korean and a lot less black/latino. I think its kinda funny when people talk about AA as if it was about white people as a result (not saying that is going on here).

This is incorrect, Filipinos were overrepresented prior to 209, and AA did not help them. Their numbers increased after 209, not decreased.

Filipino represent only 3.9% of the state population but close to 5% of the UC population, they are overrepresented.

Southeast Asians saw some of the largest gains in addmisions after 209, prior to 209 only 17% of Vietnamese were admited to UC Medical School, after 209 it rose to around 25%.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/10/01/supreme-court-to-take-up-affirmative-action-case/

Supreme Court to take up affirmative action case

Probably the most highly anticipated case to be taken up by the U.S. Supreme Court for its 2012-13 term, which begins Oct. 1, is the affirmative action lawsuit involving a white college applicant who was rejected for admission at University of Texas at Austin.

The term may also be characterized by controversial topics related to cases not presently on the docket, but which could be added: the legality of gay marriage and proper implementation of the Voting Rights Act.

&#8220;The biggest case in the term, at least in terms of its popularity and its prominence, is of course the Fisher affirmative action case,&#8221; said Thomas C. Goldstein, author of the widely read SCOTUSblog.

Fisher v. University of Texas is the case brought by Abigail N. Fisher, who did not meet the University of Texas at Austin&#8217;s cutoff for automatic admission to its undergraduate program. She was also denied admission from within the general pool of applicants, for which it is the university&#8217;s policy to include race as a deciding factor.

Fisher sued the school in 2008, claiming that the race-based admissions policy was unconstitutional.

The Court could fail to resolve the case for two procedural reasons: After UT Austin rejected Fisher, she matriculated to Louisiana State University, raising the question of whether the case is a live issue any longer. Second, Justice Elena Kagan has recused herself from the case. Before she recused herself, National Review Online pointed out that doing so would open the door for a 4&#8211;4 tie on the ruling.

But Fisher&#8217;s alma mater and Kagan&#8217;s recusal are unlikely to make a difference due to Justices Anthony Kennedy and Samuel A. Alito, Jr.&#8217;s history of suspicion toward affirmative action and other race-based programs, Goldstein said.

Fisher is successor to the decade-old affirmative action lawsuits Grutter v. Bollinger and Gratz v. Bollinger, known together as Grutter and Gratz. &#8220;The big difference between them is not really the facts, but the fact that Grutter and Gratz were decided when Justice [Sandra Day] O&#8217;Connor was on the Supreme Court,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Her seat for these purposes has been taken by Justice Alito, who has substantially greater skepticism about the role of race in governmental decision-making.&#8221;

As it stands, given the likely conservative tilt of the court in this decision, it&#8217;s likely the UT program is going to be in &#8220;big trouble&#8221; over its race-based admissions policy, Goldstein said. Such a Supreme Court ruling would at least ratchet back, if not fully reverse, the loose affirmative action parameters established by Grutter and Gratz, he said.

Goldstein was accompanied by Paul Clement at a discussion last Tuesday of the Supreme Court Terms October 2012 and 2013, hosted by the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation.

Clement, who represented the challengers to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act in last term&#8217;s Supreme Court case, discussed two issues not on the docket that the Court may be forced to take up: Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the legality of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

 

[brandonb]

When I was 18-20 years old, I was working temp jobs. I worked for Grand Met/Pillsbury doing mainframe data backups, and one day when I came in, I seen a company memo on the desk. This is what it said (or something similar as I don't have the memo anymore):

Employees: Recently, we did an internal audit of our employees. We have determined that our demographics do not fit with the requirements of the affirmative action laws. Therefore, if you are a white male who has been hired within the last 6 months, we will be terminating your positions within 2 months. We will be creating new positions available only to women and minorities in order to fit the demographic quotas we are looking for.

As a temp worker, I was not part of that as it only applied to hired employees, but I seen the memo non the less. If I was a white male who was being laid off to make room for women and minorities, I'd be pissed. I don't remember the exact wording, but I do distinctly remember it saying "women and minorities". Meaning they could be replacing white men with white women.

Granted, what they did may or may not have anything to do with the laws, but I remember just feeling all around disappointed about the entire thing.

 

[SheHateMe]

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/10/01/supreme-court-to-take-up-affirmative-action-case/

Supreme Court to take up affirmative action case

Probably the most highly anticipated case to be taken up by the U.S. Supreme Court for its 2012-13 term, which begins Oct. 1, is the affirmative action lawsuit involving a white college applicant who was rejected for admission at University of Texas at Austin.

The term may also be characterized by controversial topics related to cases not presently on the docket, but which could be added: the legality of gay marriage and proper implementation of the Voting Rights Act.

“The biggest case in the term, at least in terms of its popularity and its prominence, is of course the Fisher affirmative action case,” said Thomas C. Goldstein, author of the widely read SCOTUSblog.

Fisher v. University of Texas is the case brought by Abigail N. Fisher, who did not meet the University of Texas at Austin’s cutoff for automatic admission to its undergraduate program. She was also denied admission from within the general pool of applicants, for which it is the university’s policy to include race as a deciding factor.

Fisher sued the school in 2008, claiming that the race-based admissions policy was unconstitutional.

The Court could fail to resolve the case for two procedural reasons: After UT Austin rejected Fisher, she matriculated to Louisiana State University, raising the question of whether the case is a live issue any longer. Second, Justice Elena Kagan has recused herself from the case. Before she recused herself, National Review Online pointed out that doing so would open the door for a 4–4 tie on the ruling.

But Fisher’s alma mater and Kagan’s recusal are unlikely to make a difference due to Justices Anthony Kennedy and Samuel A. Alito, Jr.’s history of suspicion toward affirmative action and other race-based programs, Goldstein said.

Fisher is successor to the decade-old affirmative action lawsuits Grutter v. Bollinger and Gratz v. Bollinger, known together as Grutter and Gratz. “The big difference between them is not really the facts, but the fact that Grutter and Gratz were decided when Justice [Sandra Day] O’Connor was on the Supreme Court,” he said.

“Her seat for these purposes has been taken by Justice Alito, who has substantially greater skepticism about the role of race in governmental decision-making.”

As it stands, given the likely conservative tilt of the court in this decision, it’s likely the UT program is going to be in “big trouble” over its race-based admissions policy, Goldstein said. Such a Supreme Court ruling would at least ratchet back, if not fully reverse, the loose affirmative action parameters established by Grutter and Gratz, he said.

Goldstein was accompanied by Paul Clement at a discussion last Tuesday of the Supreme Court Terms October 2012 and 2013, hosted by the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation.

Clement, who represented the challengers to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act in last term’s Supreme Court case, discussed two issues not on the docket that the Court may be forced to take up: Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the legality of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

Hold on...there's a University that has Automatic admission if you apply before the cut-off date?! That certainly would have cut down on my stress time applying to 10 different schools Junior and Sophomore year. 🙂

Secondly, the failed to meet that deadline but got rejected in the General pool and she is 100% sure she was denied because of her race?

 

[xBiffx]

Thanks for the link Doc. I was expecting the OP to post it but it somehow doesn't fit his agenda seeing is how this case has little to do with AA.

 

[nehalem256]

Hold on...there's a University that has Automatic admission if you apply before the cut-off date?! That certainly would have cut down on my stress time applying to 10 different schools Junior and Sophomore year. 🙂

Secondly, the failed to meet that deadline but got rejected in the General pool and she is 100% sure she was denied because of her race?

Thanks for the link Doc. I was expecting the OP to post it but it somehow doesn't fit his agenda seeing is how this case has little to do with AA.

from the link.

She was also denied admission from within the general pool of applicants, for which it is the university’s policy to include race as a deciding factor.

How is AA not an issue?

 

[DCal430]

Thanks for the link Doc. I was expecting the OP to post it but it somehow doesn't fit his agenda seeing is how this case has little to do with AA.

This thread is not about the case it self, it was about AA in general.