Thoughts on Abortion

[soulcougher73]

Are safety harnesses and roll cages enough to protect race car drivers, and yet they still die as a consequence of their choice to race. Well we tried, but failed so let's just kill the kid ...no, because you know that even with those measures in place its still possible, so you are still taking responsibility, well, kill the child to avoid your responsibility.

This arguement really comes down to when you and I concider something to be concidered life. You view it at conception and i do not. So neither one of us is going to convince either one the other is wrong. Most likely you are religious as well. I am an athiest. Again...we are not going to convince each other one way or another.

 

[Blackjack200]

Even though we both believe in abortions. Im going to go with the others and say 'Wow'. In my opinion once its out of the womb its a life not to be taken.

I don't think that's the only difference in our views on abortion. You seem to think that it should only be used when the parents made good faith efforts to avoid pregnancy. I see it as a form of birth control that is not better or worse than any other and should be used when appropriate.

As for your reaction... once the fetus is viable, is it not a life to be taken? I don't see how that differs from my position. The point at which I think it's wrong to end its life is when that life starts to become a person. That happens well after two weeks, but I would use two weeks to be absolutely certain, and because I don't really see the need to extend beyond that.

You should have plenty of time before that to decide if abortion was right for you.

And what if there are birth defects that were not obvious during pregnancy, or if the mother's situation fundamentally changes? There are reasons for a mother to change her mind.

 

[soulcougher73]

And what if there are birth defects that were not obvious during pregnancy, or if the mother's situation fundamentally changes? There are reasons for a mother to change her mind.

Well sure i agree if it the mothers life vs. the baby if complications arise that it would be ok that late to save the mothers life is that is what she wished for. But in general i dont think you should wait that long to have an abortion.

 

[piasabird]

Dont excuse murder. Killing a baby because your economics change is not a choice it is the evil form of greed. How is this different from shoving a newborn baby in a dumpster?

 

[bfdd]

Ok, and if we assume that 50% of the population is sexually active and has sex only once a month that's still nine million unwanted pregnancies per year. The people that "manage" to not get pregnant are lucky to an extent, but also typically better educated with more birth control options available to them.

Abortion is not "poor personal responsibility". Poor personal responsibility is bearing children that you are not equipped, emotionally or financially or in any other respect, to care for when a perfectly legitimate option like abortion is safe and available.

For the most part it is a poor personal responsibility problem. The only chicks I know with unwanted pregnancies are the ones who are ok with the "pull out" method of birthcontrol.

 

[Blackjack200]

Dont excuse murder. Killing a baby because your economics change is not a choice it is the evil form of greed. How is this different from shoving a newborn baby in a dumpster?

I don't expect you to agree with me. But the difference is that one suffers while the other (ideally) doesn't.

 

[xj0hnx]

This arguement really comes down to when you and I concider something to be concidered life. You view it at conception and i do not. So neither one of us is going to convince either one the other is wrong. Most likely you are religious as well. I am an athiest. Again...we are not going to convince each other one way or another.

More of an agnostic actually. You are alive, your life started when those cells came together, if your mother had an abortion you would not be here, the simple fact that you are here typing on a computer proves life begins at conception.

 

[sonicdrummer20]

Ultimately life begins @ conception, if you're dumb enough to get pregnant you are then bound by parenthood to raise the product of your tryst. Abortion causes more emotional trauma to a woman than birth does. Abortions not only ends one life it scars another.

 

[soulcougher73]

More of an agnostic actually. You are alive, your life started when those cells came together, if your mother had an abortion you would not be here, the simple fact that you are here typing on a computer proves life begins at conception.

Of course it technically began at conception. But i was not a self aware being. Had i been aborted i would never have known it. I knew nothing as i didnt have a brain formed yet, or anything for that matter. As i said all you are killing is a potential life, not a actual self aware life yet. Thus i dont concider it murder.

 

[Cogman]

Of course it technically began at conception. But i was not a self aware being. Had i been aborted i would never have known it. I knew nothing as i didnt have a brain formed yet, or anything for that matter. As i said all you are killing is a potential life, not a actual self aware life yet. Thus i dont concider it murder.

When would you argue that self awareness happens? After all, I don't remember anything until I was about 3, does that mean that it would have been OK for my parents to kill me up until 3?

 

[CitizenKain]

Ultimately life begins @ conception, if you're dumb enough to get pregnant you are then bound by parenthood to raise the product of your tryst. Abortion causes more emotional trauma to a woman than birth does. Abortions not only ends one life it scars another.

Nope.

 

[Throckmorton]

My buddy and I were laughing together at anti-women's rights folks the other day as he mops up a adult theatre with bleach every night. The horror! Genocide!

A sperm is a gamete, not a human life.

BTW, adult theatres still exist?

 

[xj0hnx]

Of course it technically began at conception. But i was not a self aware being. Had i been aborted i would never have known it. I knew nothing as i didnt have a brain formed yet, or anything for that matter. As i said all you are killing is a potential life, not a actual self aware life yet. Thus i dont concider it murder.

Self awareness isn't the criteria by which we decide if someone/something gets to live, or is ok to kill.

 

[xj0hnx]

Nope.

Yip.

 

[Steeplerot]

BTW, adult theatres still exist?

The Lusty, all worker owned, full union dancers and no management. Amazing business model that works without exploitative profit motive. But that is a whole other story of interesting things that go on inside.

And yes, even in this economy they still do have three full shifts 24/7 of the historical and illustrious career of Jizz Mopper in 2011. 25$ an hour, catholics need not apply.

 

[Blackjack200]

When would you argue that self awareness happens? After all, I don't remember anything until I was about 3, does that mean that it would have been OK for my parents to kill me up until 3?

Just because you didn't form any memories that persist to this day doesn't mean you weren't self aware.

 

[Blackjack200]

Self awareness isn't the criteria by which we decide if someone/something gets to live, or is ok to kill.

Then what is? The reason I'm okay killing animals for food is because they are not self aware.

 

[soulcougher73]

When would you argue that self awareness happens? After all, I don't remember anything until I was about 3, does that mean that it would have been OK for my parents to kill me up until 3?

If you had followed the whole thread you would already know my stance on this. Has to be still in the womb. Preferrable as early as possible.

 

[soulcougher73]

Self awareness isn't the criteria by which we decide if someone/something gets to live, or is ok to kill.

To some it isnt. Such as yourself. To others it is.

 

[Cogman]

If you had followed the whole thread you would already know my stance on this. Has to be still in the womb. Preferrable as early as possible.

The thing is, the difference between "in the womb" and "Out of the womb" is extremely minimal. If you argue that a newborn is self aware, I would argue that a baby that is about to be born is also self aware. In fact, a fetus that is 28 weeks along is just about as self aware as a child that is just born.

The act of birth isn't what creates self awareness.

 

[soulcougher73]

This would be my abortion policy if i were in charge of such a thing.

• Abortions are legal up till the 3rd trimester. Abortions CANNOT be used as a 1st line of defense for birth control. You must be taking other responsible measures to prevent birth in the first place. Pill, Vasectomy etc. Abortions will be a last line of defense.
• The man can also request an abortion. If the women refuses this man may waive all legal rights and ramifications from this child if he so chooses.
• Abortions can be for any reason. And you wont even be asked why you want one.
• The government will NOT sponcer abortions financially in anyway. It is up to each individual to fund the cost.
• Doctors will NOT be forced to do abortions. It is up to each Doctor to decide if the wants to do them or not.
• You will be counciled on it and given the option of adoption as an alternative.

I think that is about all i can thing of for now. That covers most everything i can thnk of.
Editted the time frame allowed.

 

[soulcougher73]

The thing is, the difference between "in the womb" and "Out of the womb" is extremely minimal. If you argue that a newborn is self aware, I would argue that a baby that is about to be born is also self aware. In fact, a fetus that is 28 weeks along is just about as self aware as a child that is just born.

The act of birth isn't what creates self awareness.

No its not. Its just a moral thing to me. I view it more as a person once outside the womb. Its my opinion on it. Its neither right or wrong.

 

[xj0hnx]

No its not. Its just a moral thing to me. I view it more as a person once outside the womb. Its my opinion on it. Its neither right or wrong.

Well you're full of shit then because a baby a day before delivery is just as much a human as the day after.

 

[Cogman]

No its not. Its just a moral thing to me. I view it more as a person once outside the womb. Its my opinion on it. Its neither right or wrong.

I disagree. You are wrong on this. A child's brain is just as developed before birth as it is after it. This is exemplified by the fact that early births are able to lead full and productive lives.

It is insane to think that the act of being delivered somehow changes the fundamental makeup of a child.

 

[Blackjack200]

This would be my abortion policy if i were in charge of such a thing.

• Abortions are legal up till time of delivery. The earlier the better. (On this i would prefer to make it like 1 month before delivery, but delivery times are not always accurate. My cousin just had her baby 2 months early for example.)
• Abortions CANNOT be used as a 1st line of defense for birth control. You must be taking other responsible measures to prevent birth in the first place. Pill, Vasectomy etc. Abortions will be a last line of defense.

• 
  
  How would you enforce this? Can't the couple just lie and say they were using BC and that he had a vasectomy?
  
  

  [*]The man can also request an abortion. If the women refuses this man may waive all legal rights and ramifications from this child if he so chooses.

  
  Why not just simplify and just say that the man can absolve himself of responsability? That is separate and apart from the woman's decision to have an abortion. If he absolves himself, she may then decide to have an abortion, but his position is clear either way.
  
  

  [*]The government will NOT sponcer abortions financially in anyway. It is up to each individual to fund the cost.

  
  Why? So only the wealthy can have abortions? This provision makes no sense to me.
  
  

  [*]Doctors will NOT be forced to do abortions. It is up to each Doctor to decide if the wants to do them or not.

I think that is about all i can thing of for now. That covers most everything i can thnk of.

Disagree, but I don't think it would be a big issue.

No its not. Its just a moral thing to me. I view it more as a person once outside the womb. Its my opinion on it. Its neither right or wrong.

Ok, it's your opinion, but how do you support it? Is the transition from inside to outside the womb just a symbolic thing, or is there a critical change that happens that changes killing from okay to not okay?