Thoughts on Abortion

[llee]

I've been reading more and more about the abortion topic for school lately, and I've got a bone to pick with some issues.

I. The condition of 'life' shouldn't affect a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy.

While I can understand that the individual cells that make up a fetus or blastocyst are in fact 'living' (biological sense), that they are not an inorganic substance, this conclusion shouldn't affect a woman's right to an abortion. This argument needs to be thrown out of debate because our society is too modern to be held back by definitional constructs of life (biological sense) and death. Saying that an abortion cannot occur because there are "x" many cells, that there is functionality "y", or an age of "z" days is not only superficial but also hypocritical of those that stress the emotional and spiritual argument against abortion.

II. When does life begin?

I believe that life (in a moral sense) begins at birth. Fetuses and zygotes have a potential for life, rather than a state of life (again, in a moral sense). For those that say that draw the line at conception, when does the potential for life begin? Intercourse? Holding hands for the first time? Lover's first glance?

III. There shouldn't be exclusivity in an abortion law.

Currently, there seems to be a consensus that pregnancies that result from incest, or rape should treated differently. People get married for a variety of reasons, be it love, money, or connections, but our government has no right to judge and restrict marriage (I'm not delving into gay rights in this thread, don't prompt it) based off our motives. Why then should laws be enacted that discriminate upon a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy based of her motives?

Let me know what you all think, thanks.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

III. When does life begin?

I believe that life begins at birth. Fetuses and zygotes have a potential for life, rather than a state of life. For those that say that draw the line at conception, when does the potential for life begin? Intercourse? Holding hands for the first time? Lover's first glance?

How is it that you can follow a paragraph stipulating that the cells of a blastocyst, a zygote, an embryo and a fetus are all living immediately with a paragraph asserting your belief that life doesn't begin until birth?

Life, if it began at all, likely did so some several hundreds of millions of years ago. The totality of life in the world has formed a living continuum since whatever beginning may have occurred in the past.

Personhood begins with a live, human birth.

Let me know what you all think, thanks.

I think sloppy language is at the root of a lot of misinformed positions about abortion.

 

[llee]

Thanks for pointing that out. I need to work out the context better so I don't confuse people between the distinction that I wanted to make between biological life and the moral sense of life. What about the other contentions? Should there be exclusivity in legislation that affects abortion?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

My position is pretty cut and dry, and your contentions vis-a-vis my position fall rather by the wayside.

Particularly, the circumstances which undergird a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy begin with the fact that persons are human, born, and alive. Fetuses are not persons -- they are not counted in the decennial census, you cannot count them as dependents on your taxes, they don't count as your "2+" as you drive in the HOV lane on the freeway, etc -- and as such they do not have the rights that persons do.

Moreover, not even a person has the right to occupy the body of another person. No such person enjoys an unconditional right to forcibly extract the totality of his bodily sustenance and respirate from the bloodstream of another person. No person can freely inject another person with hormones and bodily waste. Any and all of these actions constitute a severe violation of a person's right to bodily integrity, and consequently any waiver of those rights must be explicit. A fetus exists as a "guest" of sorts, under the provisional consent of its mother, and it is her right to revoke that provisional consent should she so choose and evict her "guest" from the "premises".

Now, to temper that position a bit, there exist legal principles (casually known as "squatter's rights") which can limit a mother's right to terminate her pregnancy late into its term. In brief, after a certain point in a pregnancy's term, it can be argued that the mother has been reasonably aware of her pregnancy and presented with ample opportunity to terminate it had that been her choice. Late-term abortions present siginficant difficulties and risks to a mother's health, and a fetus's development begins to approach viability. At this point abortions should only be performed as deemed necessary by a woman's doctor, subject to the review of a panel of qualified, accredited physicians.

 

[IGBT]

I think every liquor store in south central LA and Oakland Calif. should have an abortion clinic.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Life, if it began at all, likely did so some several hundreds of millions of years ago.

If it began at all?

 

[Red Dawn]

I think every liquor store in south central LA and Oakland Calif. should have an abortion clinic.

Don't like the Blacks huh?

 

[dmcowen674]

Save the cells!!! Save the cells!!! Save the cells!!!

 

[DesiPower]

I. The condition of 'life' shouldn't affect a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy.

Agreed, fully agreed, if a person is reluctant or not sure about the baby, it should definitely be aborted. She should not be forced to or emotionally blackmailed into having it. Forcing her to see the ultrasound, hear the heart beat and naming the baby are just outrageous.

II. When does life begin?

Difficult question to answer, my heart and mind are divided. I think its not until the baby is brought into the world during birth (and not abortion) but as a human its very difficult to see a late term abortion fetus, crying ans slowly dying, the feeling in helplessness is just overwhelming in those cases...


III. There shouldn't be exclusivity in an abortion law.
No, there shouldn't, the law should be universal, I fell there should be no laws relating to abortion, govt should not be involved at all. Who ever wants to abort for whatever reason should be free to do so AND whoever (Doctors) does not want to participate, should be free to do so.

 

[nick1985]

Government has no business in a woman's womb. None. Any conservative who hates a big intrusive government, yet supports this kind of crap is a hypocrite.

 

[DesiPower]

Government has no business in a woman's womb. None. Any conservative who hates a big intrusive government, yet supports this kind of crap is a hypocrite.

But neither should a doctor be forced to do it against their will.

 

[nick1985]

But neither should a doctor be forced to do it against their will.

Uh, fine. Im sure there are plenty of doctors who are willing

 

[Fear No Evil]

Government has no business in a woman's womb. None. Any conservative who hates a big intrusive government, yet supports this kind of crap is a hypocrite.

I agree, but I also think any conservative who thinks abortion is a GOOD thing is a disgusting human being. We should do absolutely everything we can to avoid abortions. I think 100 years from now we will look back on abortion like we currently do on things like equal rights for gays and blacks and say WTF were we thinking.

 

[Red Dawn]

I agree, but I also think any conservative who thinks abortion is a GOOD thing is a disgusting human being. We should do absolutely everything we can to avoid abortions. I think 100 years from now we will look back on abortion like we currently do on things like equal rights for gays and blacks and say WTF were we thinking.

By allowing women to have abortions?

 

[Fear No Evil]

By allowing women to have abortions?

Not allowing it, but promoting and encouraging it in many cases. Of course, with my tax dollars soon to be forced to pay for the abortion and related medical care I guess your girlfriend's womb IS my business now.

Given your post a few back I'm not sure you are even past the racism part yet though.. :whiste:

 

[QuantumPion]

Government has no business in a woman's womb. None. Any conservative who hates a big intrusive government, yet supports this kind of crap is a hypocrite.

Government has no business in a woman's home either, that doesn't mean they don't have the duty to prevent child abuse.

 

[brandonb]

I've been reading more and more about the abortion topic for school lately, and I've got a bone to pick with some issues.

I. The condition of 'life' shouldn't affect a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy.

While I can understand that the individual cells that make up a fetus or blastocyst are in fact 'living' (biological sense), that they are not an inorganic substance, this conclusion shouldn't affect a woman's right to an abortion. This argument needs to be thrown out of debate because our society is too modern to be held back by definitional constructs of life (biological sense) and death. Saying that an abortion cannot occur because there are "x" many cells, that there is functionality "y", or an age of "z" days is not only superficial but also hypocritical of those that stress the emotional and spiritual argument against abortion.

II. When does life begin?

I believe that life (in a moral sense) begins at birth. Fetuses and zygotes have a potential for life, rather than a state of life (again, in a moral sense). For those that say that draw the line at conception, when does the potential for life begin? Intercourse? Holding hands for the first time? Lover's first glance?

III. There shouldn't be exclusivity in an abortion law.

Currently, there seems to be a consensus that pregnancies that result from incest, or rape should treated differently. People get married for a variety of reasons, be it love, money, or connections, but our government has no right to judge and restrict marriage (I'm not delving into gay rights in this thread, don't prompt it) based off our motives. Why then should laws be enacted that discriminate upon a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy based of her motives?

Let me know what you all think, thanks.

I thought the same thing in school, but later on life, I came to another conclusion.

Why shouldn't "life" affect abortion? Why does a woman need to have an abortion?

Let's not look at the effect, but rather look at the cause. If a woman needs an abortion, how did she become to be pregnant? Obviously the results are not desired, so let's 'treat' the results, and not the cause. Most pregnancies are due to a variety of factors. In Seattle a few years ago, to get an abortion, you had to fill out a survey. The reasons why. These results were published: The majority of responses were : The daddy left me and I'm no longer in a relationship with them. Huh? You want to have an abortion because the father is no longer around. So let's say they were around, and left 5 years later, when the child was 4. Would you give your kid up for adoption? Kill them? Send them to be with Papa? I can let you google the rest if you are interested.

Lets face it. The majority of abortions are just bullshit. 95% of the survey responses were because people didn't want to take responsibility for their actions.

Let's twist this a bit:

Let's say if a woman is pregnant, and plans to have the child, should she give any consideration to her unborn? What if she smokes, drinks, and does drugs while pregnant and plans to have the child anyways? Is that ok? What if the chances of a mental or physical disability in this child is increased by a factor of 100 because of her actions? What if the child is born with a disability. What if she just sends this disabled child to grandpa, or gives it up for adoption or just throws it next to a dumpster... Should she be held responsible? Her actions before birth affected the outcome of the child when it was born. If you were this child, what would you think of your mother? If I knew the truth, I'd probably want to smash in her skull. Her actions ruined my entire life... Shouldn't that be a criminal offense? After all its just a bunch of cells. Right?

Why is it ok 1 day before birth to terminate the pregnancy by 1 day after Birth it's considered Murder?

Think about it.

I agree with Fear No Evil. We will look back on abortions and think "WTF were we thinking."

 

[DesiPower]

I agree, but I also think any conservative who thinks abortion is a GOOD thing is a disgusting human being. We should do absolutely everything we can to avoid abortions. I think 100 years from now we will look back on abortion like we currently do on things like equal rights for gays and blacks and say WTF were we thinking.

You cannot be serious. Lot of people get pregnant while having fun, they don't want any part of having a baby. The mother in many cases keeps smoking and drinking all through the pregnancy and the taxpayers end up taking care of the babies. If and when those babies are born, they are burden on their parents or mothers. They have a miserable childhood and a horrible life. I believe no babies should be brought into this world unless they parents or the mother is absolutely certain and happy and looking forward to having it.

Babies are a "gift of god" is a notion promoted by religious zealots who want to increase the number of people following their religion at all costs, without considering the quality of life these babies will have. The world is already over populated, I absolutely do not see any reason for bringing more unwanted babies into the world.

 

[brandonb]

Lot of people get pregnant while having fun, they don't want any part of having a baby. The mother in many cases keeps smoking and drinking all through the pregnancy and the taxpayers end up taking care of the babies.

Should be a criminal offense IMHO.

 

[Fear No Evil]

You cannot be serious. Lot of people get pregnant while having fun, they don't want any part of having a baby. The mother in many cases keeps smoking and drinking all through the pregnancy and the taxpayers end up taking care of the babies. If and when those babies are born, they are burden on their parents or mothers. They have a miserable childhood and a horrible life. I believe no babies should be brought into this world unless they parents or the mother is absolutely certain and happy and looking forward to having it.

Babies are a "gift of god" is a notion promoted by religious zealots who want to increase the number of people following their religion at all costs, without considering the quality of life these babies will have. The world is already over populated, I absolutely do not see any reason for bringing more unwanted babies into the world.

The world is overpopulated so I don't see any reason to pay for healthcare for the poor either. See how this works? Its fun!

 

[Anarchist420]

I think abortion policy should be decentralized down to the state or local level. If there were an amendment federally banning abortion and giving Congress the power to enforce it, then that would be a disaster as central planning never works. The other extreme, which we have now, is no good either. I personally think that abortion clinics are afforded way too much protection.

 

[DesiPower]

Should be a criminal offense IMHO.

Unless we criminalize getting/making pregnant outside the intent of having a baby, we cannot and should not ban abortion.

 

[Atreus21]

To the OP: Are you in favor of partial birth abortion?

 

[nick1985]

Government has no business in a woman's home either, that doesn't mean they don't have the duty to prevent child abuse.

Thats no more child abuse than me throwing a cum rag in the laundry.

 

[brandonb]

Unless we criminalize getting/making pregnant outside the intent of having a baby, we cannot and should not ban abortion.

I agree.

I believe irresponsible actions that cause pregnancy because of unsafe sex, should be criminal. DUI is irresponsibility (no sober cap setup ahead of time) and criminal. Even if you caused nobody any harm (was pulled over without an accident or even a crime commited outside the DUI itself), it's still criminal because there is a potential of harming another and is just bad judgement. Getting pregnant without intent of keeping the baby (or caring for it) is harming another (the baby, the fetus, the daddy, grandparents, tax payers, etc) and irresponsible in the same manner, and should have similar consequences. I'm going to coin it. PWI. =P