Thoughts on Abortion

[xj0hnx]

So what you are saying is we need sexual insurance? You can F all you want and if a baby comes along we will take care of that for you? So long as you followed all the laws of trying to prevent a baby in the first place (pills, vasectomy). Im just being silly now but this thread is so long gone its fun now.

Now that would be kind of funny, but wait, would the government have to subsidize poor people's sex insurance? Or would there be a pubic option?

 

[Kadarin]

I guess it can be made, but I don't think it can be internally consistent. If abortion is wrong because of the death of the fetus, how do the circumstances by which the fetus came to be have any impact on that?

Something else along these lines that must be considered would be fertility treatments where multiple embryos are created and implanted and some are discarded. People seem to be ok with this procedure because the general intent is to create at least one baby. However, living fetuses are still being killed when this happens so it violates the "human life is sacrosanct" argument against abortion.

 

[Atreus21]

I guess it can be made, but I don't think it can be internally consistent. If abortion is wrong because of the death of the fetus, how do the circumstances by which the fetus came to be have any impact on that?

For the same reason, somewhat, that killing another in self defense is permissable. It's not quite the same because the child is innocent, whereas in self defense the perpetrator is not.

I'm just saying it's plausible. It has holes in it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So you're so pathetic you have to resort to making shit up now? Sad.

I'm not making anything up. You're just too stupid to remember what you've said, even though it's still there for anyone to review.

In brief, I described the parasitic behavior of a fetus. You insisted that it isn't a virus, to which I agreed, remarking that it is rather a parasite. You erroneously declared that it is a baby, to which I responded by pointing out that babies are born. You agreed. Obviously, then, I was not talking about a baby, I was talking about a fetus, because fetuses are not born like babies are.

If you cannot keep up with the dialogue, I suggest you find something more appropriate for your deficient attention and comprehension.

Yes it is human, it is not A human. It is human the same way your pancreas is, or your spleen, actually it isn't because it only contains half the DNA that makes us human.

How much DNA makes a human? I already asked you a bunch of questions with regard to this and you could not answer them. Obviously, then, your claims lack any real basis when scrutinized. You're simply talking out of your ass.

Stop putting words in peoples mouths, it's really bad form, and makes you look more stupid.

I'm not. As demonstrated above, you can't focus long enough to remember the things you yourself have said.

I never said anything close to that, and once again if you could quote that, I'd love to see it, but I have a feeling you are going to dance around it like you did the last time, making up more bullshit to hide your inadequacy.

You said precisely that. In speaking of a human gamete, I asked, "It is alive and human, is it not"? To which you replied, "Alive yes, human no." I'm sorry that you are so poorly educated as to think that humans do not produce human gametes, but they do. I assure you that I do, and it is a terrible tradgedy that you think you do not.

Actually no, they are not.

Acutually, yes, they are.

Each gamete only carries half the genetic information to create a human, so they are not "as human" as the completed zygote.

Non-sequitur. There are no "degrees of humanness." A cell is human or it is not. This is, of course, another fact of which you are ignorant.

They are human as in they come from a human, but to call them a human is a ridiculous stretch of the imagination, and honesty.

You can lecture about honesty when you honestly answer the questions you have heretofore tried to pretend didn't exist.

What is a "complete strand"? Do people with Klinefelter's Syndrome have "more complete" DNA than others? What does that mean? How do you know that Klinefelter's people don't have "complete" DNA and the rest of us are "incomplete"?

Which individuals enjoy the right to occupy the body of another person ? Which individuals enjoy the right to feed and respiration directly from another person's bloodstream without consent? Which individuals enjoy the right to inject another person with hormones without consent ? Which individuals enjoy the right to inject another person with bodily waste without consent?

Since when are any of the above rights enjoyed by anyone? Why then would you insist that fetuses should enjoy them? Do you know the meaning of Constitutional equal protection?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It's not a good analogy. I don't just get insurance and then drive however I want and then be absolved of responsibility, you still have to follow the laws of the road or face the consequences.

You can drive however you want as long as you don't break any laws or behave negligently. Having sex is neither criminal nor negligent, so the analogy is perfect. You're just too stupid or dishonest to admit it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

For the same reason, somewhat, that killing another in self defense is permissable. It's not quite the same because the child is innocent, whereas in self defense the perpetrator is not.

We're not talking about children, we're talking about fetuses.

And fetuses are hardly "innocent" when they occupy the body of a mother against her will. I've listed the violations inherent in pregnancy in detail plenty of times, so you're either too dumb to remember or too dishonest to admit that the violations actually exist.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I'm pro-choice so I couldn't possibly care less if women get abortions. It should be legal in all states.

 

[xj0hnx]

I'm not making anything up.

Yes you are.

In brief, I described the parasitic behavior of a fetus. You insisted that it isn't a virus, to which I agreed, remarking that it is rather a parasite. You erroneously declared that it is a baby, to which I responded by pointing out that babies are born. You agreed. Obviously, then, I was not talking about a baby, I was talking about a fetus, because fetuses are not born like babies are.

A fetus is a developing baby.

How much DNA makes a human? I already asked you a bunch of questions with regard to this and you could not answer them. Obviously, then, your claims lack any real basis when scrutinized. You're simply talking out of your ass.

Your questions are ignorant. The only one talking out of your ass is you, and your inability to understand a concept so simple that a child can follow it.

You said precisely that. In speaking of a human gamete, I asked, "It is alive and human, is it not"? To which you replied, "Alive yes, human no." I'm sorry that you are so poorly educated as to think that humans do not produce human gametes, but they do. I assure you that I do, and it is a terrible tradgedy that you think you do not.

Either you are too stupid to understand the difference between human, and a human, or you are just playing ignorant, either way. No one said humans do not produce human gametes, I said that human gametes are not humans. Is that too complicated your you feeble mind to process?

Non-sequitur. There are no "degrees of humanness." A cell is human or it is not. This is, of course, another fact of which you are ignorant.

Hardly non-sequitar, You not liking the fact that sperm and eggs only carry half the DNA to make a human doesn't change the fact. Gametes are human, they are not a human, they aren't human life. The two need to join to form a zygote to form a human being, so your theory that life can't come from something that already exists is BS because they aren't a human life, and neither of them are a human being.

 

[xj0hnx]

You can drive however you want as long as you don't break any laws or behave negligently. Having sex is neither criminal nor negligent, so the analogy is perfect. You're just too stupid or dishonest to admit it.

You've already shown that you can't understand simple concepts, stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[alkemyst]

Insisting on a vasectomy is a bit draconian I think.

 

[alkemyst]

Nope, I like driving, and accept the responsibility, just like I did when my wife got pregnant, even though it most definitely was not "convenient".

was she your wife at the time?

 

[totalnoob]

A few questions for the "pro-lifers" here who think abortion is equivalent to murder..

1. If a 15 year old girl gets a voluntary abortion, should she be arrested and charged with first degree murder?

2. A standard punishment for this crime is the death penalty. Would you seek the death penalty against her? If not, why?

3. Hypothetical scenario: You are in a hospital lab that is on fire. The ceiling is about to collapse and you don't have much time. On one side of the room is a small freezer containing 100 human embryos that were intended for in vitro fertilization..100 life forms that could potentially become fully grown babies. On the other side of the room is a 1 week old baby girl lying on the ground and screaming her eyes out. You need to leave quickly and can only save one thing from the room. Which one do you pick?

 

[alkemyst]

3. Hypothetical scenario: You are in a hospital lab that is on fire. The ceiling is about to collapse and you don't have much time. On one side of the room is a small freezer containing 100 human embryos that were intended for in vitro fertilization..100 life forms that could potentially become fully grown babies. On the other side of the room is a 1 week old baby girl lying on the ground and screaming her eyes out. You need to leave quickly and can only save one thing from the room. Which one do you pick?

Myself...I have far more potential.

 

[ericlp]

Government has no business in a woman's womb. None. Any conservative who hates a big intrusive government, yet supports this kind of crap is a hypocrite.

Yeah and neither does your church...

 

[Atreus21]

A few questions for the "pro-lifers" here who think abortion is equivalent to murder..

1. If a 15 year old girl gets a voluntary abortion, should she be arrested and charged with first degree murder?

She should be charged with whatever crime I'd be charged with if I killed my own child. There are some mitigating circumstances I think that would dampen the penalty, such as her age, being under extreme duress from an unwanted pregnancy, etc.

2. A standard punishment for this crime is the death penalty. Would you seek the death penalty against her? If not, why?

I highly doubt that the death penalty would be in consideration for a fifteen year old. I wouldn't seek it because it doesn't seem like the kind of crime for which people are sentenced to death, like that guy who robbed some guy, killed him, and burnt his house down.

3. Hypothetical scenario: You are in a hospital lab that is on fire. The ceiling is about to collapse and you don't have much time. On one side of the room is a small freezer containing 100 human embryos that were intended for in vitro fertilization..100 life forms that could potentially become fully grown babies. On the other side of the room is a 1 week old baby girl lying on the ground and screaming her eyes out. You need to leave quickly and can only save one thing from the room. Which one do you pick?

If it ain't fertilized, it ain't a human being. Answer seems clear.

 

[Kadarin]

If it ain't fertilized, it ain't a human being. Answer seems clear.

What he said was "containing 100 human embryos"; by definition these ARE fertilized. So what's clear to you is that you'd grab the freezer?

 

[Atreus21]

What he said was "containing 100 human embryos"; by definition these ARE fertilized. So what's clear to you is that you'd grab the freezer?

No. Certainly not. I'd grab the two week old.

 

[Blackjack200]

What he said was "containing 100 human embryos"; by definition these ARE fertilized. So what's clear to you is that you'd grab the freezer?

Well, obviously he was talking about unfertilized embryos.

 

[heymrdj]

I guess all I want is if it's legal for abortion I want the laws repealed so that kiling a pregnant woman gains you 2 murder charges. Completely unfair. If you need to kill a pregnant woman, you killed her, not 2 beings.

Now I'm pro-life, so it don't much matter for me, but I can't stand the two facedness of the current law. But the moment you repeal the double murder charge yuo'll have all the feminazis that want pro-choice saying that it's a great travesty. Two faced bastards and bitches.

 

[Blackjack200]

I guess all I want is if it's legal for abortion I want the laws repealed so that kiling a pregnant woman gains you 2 murder charges. Completely unfair. If you need to kill a pregnant woman, you killed her, not 2 beings.

Now I'm pro-life, so it don't much matter for me, but I can't stand the two facedness of the current law. But the moment you repeal the double murder charge yuo'll have all the feminazis that want pro-choice saying that it's a great travesty. Two faced bastards and bitches.

Thanks for illustrating the mysoginy of the pro life position. It is her right to terminate her pregnancy, not yours.

 

[heymrdj]

Thanks for illustrating the mysoginy of the pro life position. It is her right to terminate her pregnancy, not yours.

OMG really? Really can you be that foolish. Well I'll explain it one time, but you'll probably play the fools fiddle and act like it's a load of hogwash though the basic explanations support it. Here goes.

Abortionists view it as a clump of cells. NOT A LIFE. Therefore they can free kill it (or purge it, since you can't kill what isn't a life). So no murder charge there. Now if I kill it, it's suddenly a life? No. It's not. It's a clump of cells, not a life. Just because she owns it, does not make it or give it a life. If I pull off a scab, i didn't murder anyone. It was cells. If someone comes up and takes a scab off of me by brushing against me, I can't say they murdered someone. EVEN STANDARDS. Stop trying to have your cake and eat the damn thing to. IT IS A LIFE or it ISN'T A LIFE. IT CAN'T BE BOTH. No matter who kills it, whether her in an abortion, a guy/girl in a murder, or a lead pipe in a driving accident. Either you ALWAYS GET CHARGED WITH MURDER/MANSLAUGHTER, or you don't get anything at all because it wasn't a life. This whole argument CENTERS on whether or not abortion is taking a life. To be legal, it can't be a life. So that should mean you could go around and punch all the pregnant women int he stomach that you want, and only face assault charges.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Yes you are.

Quite demonstrable false.

A fetus is a developing baby.

But babies are born, so it isn't a baby. You yourself stipulated this.

Your questions are ignorant.

No they aren't. They pinpoint precisely the problems with your position, which is why you refuse to answer them.

The only one talking out of your ass is you, and your inability to understand a concept so simple that a child can follow it.

Again, you haven't answered the question. You do not have a basis for your claim, else you would have an answer to the question. No answer = your claims are baseless.

Either you are too stupid to understand the difference between human, and a human, or you are just playing ignorant, either way.

I know well the difference. I know also that a human is a person, and persons are born.

No one said humans do not produce human gametes, I said that human gametes are not humans.

You said "...human, no." Go read it again for yourself. It's not my problem you're a blabbering jackass that can't be precise with his words.

Is that too complicated your you feeble mind to process?

It is painfully obvious that I'm the only one able to keep up with this exchange.

Hardly non-sequitar, You not liking the fact that sperm and eggs only carry half the DNA to make a human doesn't change the fact.

That human gametes carry a different set of genetic material than, say, human stem cells, does not make them "less human." The idea of "more human" or "less human" is nonsensical, therefore your claim is a non-sequitur. See, that's called making an argument, as opposed to your ridiculous re-assertions which amount to nothing more than foot-stomping and a petulant "nuh-uh! nuh-uh!"

Gametes are human, they are not a human, they aren't human life.

They are human, and they are alive. They are thus human life. This is a fact from which you cannot escape.

The two need to join to form a zygote to form a human being, so your theory that life can't come from something that already exists is BS because they aren't a human life, and neither of them are a human being.

You are simply ignorant of reality. Human gametes are human. Human gametes are alive. Human gametes are therefore human life. You cannot rationally deny this.

These questions still, and will remain until you have answered them directly:

What is a "complete strand"? Do people with Klinefelter's Syndrome have "more complete" DNA than others? What does that mean? How do you know that Klinefelter's people don't have "complete" DNA and the rest of us are "incomplete"?

Which individuals enjoy the right to occupy the body of another person ? Which individuals enjoy the right to feed and respiration directly from another person's bloodstream without consent? Which individuals enjoy the right to inject another person with hormones without consent ? Which individuals enjoy the right to inject another person with bodily waste without consent?

Since when are any of the above rights enjoyed by anyone? Why then would you insist that fetuses should enjoy them? Do you know the meaning of Constitutional equal protection?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You've already shown that you can't understand simple concepts, stop embarrassing yourself.

It is obvious that you cannot demonstrate anything that I've said to be false, but like I appropriately noted, you are simply too much of a pussy to admit it.

 

[xj0hnx]

was she your wife at the time?

It is obvious that you cannot demonstrate anything that I've said to be false, but like I appropriately noted, you are simply too much of a pussy to admit it.

Is a blood cell a "human life"? How about a hair follicle?

 

[Jaskalas]

Simple. In cases of rape, incest, other criminally belligerent sexual act or when giving birth may cause harm to the baby/mom, abortion should be allowed. Otherwise, well abortion is not birth control. You make a mistake you own up to it. Plenty of contraceptive options, including the wide availability of plan B.

Great, now teach people that morality without the force of tyranny.