thoughts on a looming trade war with China

[Jhhnn]

Except for that pesky poisoning the population with extreme pollution, which includes degrading soil with toxins that will be around for many decades, bit.

Kinda like us not too long ago, huh?

 

[desura]

Except for that pesky poisoning the population with extreme pollution, which includes degrading soil with toxins that will be around for many decades, bit.

Yes, and the sad thing about that is the rich who polluted the commons are spending money on expensive European prestige. Like, dude who owns Foxconn also bought a $30 million castle in Europe. His workers make $2.50 an hour.

 

[Meghan54]

Except for that pesky poisoning the population with extreme pollution, which includes degrading soil with toxins that will be around for many decades, bit.

Thank goodness we have the EPA to prevent such from happening again. And thank goodness no one wants to dismantle it because business has proven time and again it cannot and will not regulate itself.....

Oh, wait......

 

[superstition]

Kinda like us not too long ago, huh?

Not even close, really.

Yes, the US could have done better but:

a) People didn't know as much about things like lead toxicity as they do now.

b) Overpopulation was not an issue in the US.

c) The level of pollution isn't even close, except for water pollution, as with the Cuyahoga and Ohio rivers, and some cases of heavy metal pollution.

Yes, we have arsenic-tainted soil (which is why people and pets shouldn't eat brown rice farmed in America unless it's raised in California) but the level of soil problems alone pales in comparison with China's soil problems. People look at the extremely toxic air but forget about the soil and water.

The Chinese government decided that all the knowledge that has been gained doesn't matter because it's better to exploit people.

Thank goodness we have the EPA to prevent such from happening again. And thank goodness no one wants to dismantle it because business has proven time and again it cannot and will not regulate itself.....

The GOP gutting the EPA is the biggest worry of mine for this administration. Things like lead and arsenic taint soils for many decades, even more than a century. They are very persistent. Our biggest problem with arsenic in soil is from the use of arsenic/lead combo pesticides way back prior to DDT. Both are still a big problem in soil that was exposed. The arsenic-lead cocktail was so toxic that it would burn away all the grass around trees in orchards when it was sprayed.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not even close, really.

Yes, the US could have done better but:

a) People didn't know as much about things like lead toxicity as they do now.

b) Overpopulation was not an issue in the US.

c) The level of pollution isn't even close, except for water pollution, as with the Cuyahoga and Ohio rivers, and some cases of heavy metal pollution.

Yes, we have arsenic-tainted soil (which is why people and pets shouldn't eat brown rice farmed in America unless it's raised in California) but the level of soil problems alone pales in comparison with China's soil problems. People look at the extremely toxic air but forget about the soil and water.

The Chinese government decided that all the knowledge that has been gained doesn't matter because it's better to exploit people.

The GOP gutting the EPA is the biggest worry of mine for this administration. Things like lead and arsenic taint soils for many decades, even more than a century. They are very persistent. Our biggest problem with arsenic in soil is from the use of arsenic/lead combo pesticides way back prior to DDT. Both are still a big problem in soil that was exposed. The arsenic-lead cocktail was so toxic that it would burn away all the grass around trees in orchards when it was sprayed.

Knowing all that, then the US should be leading the way, right?

Wrong. Not with Repubs in charge.

 

[agent00f]

Not even close, really.

Yes, the US could have done better but:

a) People didn't know as much about things like lead toxicity as they do now.

b) Overpopulation was not an issue in the US.

c) The level of pollution isn't even close, except for water pollution, as with the Cuyahoga and Ohio rivers, and some cases of heavy metal pollution.

Yes, we have arsenic-tainted soil (which is why people and pets shouldn't eat brown rice farmed in America unless it's raised in California) but the level of soil problems alone pales in comparison with China's soil problems. People look at the extremely toxic air but forget about the soil and water.

The Chinese government decided that all the knowledge that has been gained doesn't matter because it's better to exploit people.

The GOP gutting the EPA is the biggest worry of mine for this administration. Things like lead and arsenic taint soils for many decades, even more than a century. They are very persistent. Our biggest problem with arsenic in soil is from the use of arsenic/lead combo pesticides way back prior to DDT. Both are still a big problem in soil that was exposed. The arsenic-lead cocktail was so toxic that it would burn away all the grass around trees in orchards when it was sprayed.

Pollution in china is largely a byproduct of severe self-interested corruption, the perfect illustration of the tragedy of the commons and result of capitalist reform without the requisite legal countermeasure framework. It's not as if they're too goddamn stupid to regulate polluters.

 

[momeNt]

Pollution in china is largely a byproduct of severe self-interested corruption, the perfect illustration of the tragedy of the commons and result of capitalist reform without the requisite legal countermeasure framework. It's not as if they're too goddamn stupid to regulate polluters.

China is only interested in GDP. It is not corruption or stupidity per se.

 

[agent00f]

China is only interested in GDP. It is not corruption or stupidity per se.

No, as a matter of first principles, CCP officials (ie the deciders) are largely self-interested in enriching themselves. Growth is just a way of facilitating that by remaining in power.

 

[superstition]

Knowing all that, then the US should be leading the way, right?

Wrong. Not with Repubs in charge.

Leading the way? You mean by overthrowing the Chinese government? Because otherwise your post is just tu quoque fallacy and a restatement of the argument I just successfully rebutted.

 

[Meghan54]

Top 100 Facilities Releasing TRI Chemicals to the Environment (so far--ranking by pounds of contaminates released):

1. RED DOG OPS., 90 MILES N. OF KOTZEBUE, KOTZEBUE, AK 481,578,816

2. NEWMONT MINING CORP. TWIN CREEKS MINE, 35 MILES N.E. OF GOLCONDA, GOLCONDA, NV 291,128,400

3. BHP COPPER N.A. SAN MANUEL OPS., 200 S. REDDINGTON RD., SAN MANUEL, AZ 248,695,440

4. KENNECOTT UTAH COPPER MINE CONCENTRATORS & POWER PLANT, 12300 S. UTAH HWY. 111, COPPERTON, UT 113,640,793

5. BARRICK GOLDSTRIKE MINES INC., 27 MILES N. OF CARLIN, ELKO, NV 79,410,838

6. NEWMONT MINING CORP. LONE TREE MINE, STONEHOUSE EXIT 212, VALMY, NV 58,686,703

7. NEWMONT MINING CORP. CARLIN SOUTH AREA, 6 MILES N. OF CARLIN, CARLIN, NV 43,143,578

8. KENNECOTT GREENS CREEK MINING CO., 13401 GLACIER HWY., JUNEAU, AK 37,103,243

9. ASARCO INC. RAY COMPLEX HAYDEN SMELTER & CONCENTRATOR, 640 ASARCO AVE., HAYDEN, AZ 34,941,191

10. US ECOLOGY IDAHO INC., 10 1/2 MILES N.W. OF GRAND VIE LEMELY RD., GRAND VIEW, ID 28,895,378

11. SOLUTIA INC., 3000 OLD CHEMSTRAND RD., CANTONMENT, FL 25,500,247

12. KENNECOTT UTAH COPPER SMELTER & REFY., 12000 WEST 2100 SOUTH & 11500 W. 2100 S., MAGNA, UT 25,220,896

13. STANTON ENERGY CENTER, 5100 S. ALAFAYA TRAIL, ORLANDO, FL 24,652,037

14. SOLUTIA - CHOCOLATE BAYOU, FM 2917, ALVIN, TX 23,683,210

15. ILLINOIS CREEK MINE, 300 MILES N. OF ANCHORAGE, ANCHORAGE, AK 23,170,864

16. PHELPS DODGE MIAMI INC., HWY. 60, CLAYPOOL, AZ 22,764,432

17. AK STEEL CORP. (ROCKPORT WORKS), 6500 N. U.S. 231, ROCKPORT, IN 22,707,812

18. GEORGIA POWER BOWEN STEAM ELECTRIC GENERATING PLANT, 317 COVERED BRIDGE RD., CARTERSVILLE, GA 22,333,284

19. PEORIA DISPOSAL CO. 1, 4349 W. SOUTHPORT RD., PEORIA, IL 20,822,432

20. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER AMOS PLANT, 1530 WINFIELD RD., WINFIELD, WV 18,798,284

21. LENZING FIBERS CORP., HWY. 160, LOWLAND, TN 18,574,887

22. BP CHEMICALS GREEN LAKE FACILITY, TEXAS HWY. 185, PORT LAVACA, TX 18,228,953

23. BASF CORP., 602 COPPER RD., FREEPORT, TX 17,994,346

24. U.S. TVA JOHNSONVILLE FOSSIL PLANT, 535 STEAM PLANT RD. U.S. HWY. 70, NEW JOHNSONVILLE, TN 17,937,884

25. GEORGIA POWER SCHERER STEAM ELECTRIC GENERATING PLANT, 10986 HWY. 87, JULIETTE, GA 17,702,324

26. RELIANT ENERGY KEYSTONE POWER PLANT, RTE. 210, SHELOCTA, PA 17,356,858

27. PASMINCO ZINC INC., 1800 ZINC PLANT RD., CLARKSVILLE, TN 16,769,320

28. MONTANA TUNNELS MINING INC., 5 MILES W. OF JEFFERSON CITY, JEFFERSON CITY, MT 16,459,390

29. VICKERY ENVIRONMENTAL INC., 3956 STATE RTE. 412, VICKERY, OH 16,019,978

30. DOE RUN CO. HERCULANEUM SMELTER, 881 MAIN ST., HERCULANEUM, MO 15,571,063

31. ENVIROSAFE SERVICES OF OHIO INC., 876 OTTER CREEK RD., OREGON, OH 15,545,915

32. DUKE ENERGY BELEWS CREEK STEAM STATION, 3195 PINE HALL RD., BELEWS CREEK, NC 15,543,557

33. DU PONT DELISLE PLANT, 7685 KILN-DELISLE RD., PASS CHRISTIAN, MS 14,894,376

34. US MAGNESIUM L.L.C., 15 MILES N. OF EXIT 77 OFF I-80, ROWLEY, UT 14,774,242

35. DUKE ENERGY MARSHALL STEAM STATION, 8320 E. NC 150 HWY., TERRELL, NC 14,355,320

36. CP&L ROXBORO STEAM ELECTRIC PLANT, 1700 DUNNAWAY RD., SEMORA, NC 13,962,696

37. J. M. STUART STATION, 745 U.S. 52, MANCHESTER, OH 13,792,258

38. BP CHEMICALS INC., 1900 FORT AMANDA RD., LIMA, OH 13,727,113

39. BRUSHY CREEK MINE/MILL, HWY. KK, BUNKER, MO 13,292,834

40. W. H. SAMMIS PLANT, STATE RTE. 7, STRATTON, OH 13,145,140

41. USS GARY WORKS, 1 N. BROADWAY, GARY, IN 12,941,105

42. DU PONT JOHNSONVILLE PLANT, 1 DU PONT RD., NEW JOHNSONVILLE, TN 12,787,488

43. BUICK MINE/MILL, HWY. KK, BOSS, MO 12,734,730

44. DETROIT EDISON MONROE POWER PLANT, 3500 E. FRONT ST., MONROE, MI 12,498,729

45. PROGRESS ENERGY CRYSTAL RIVER ENERGY COMPLEX, POWERLINE RD., CRYSTAL RIVER, FL 12,234,761

46. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER MITCHELL PLANT, STATE RTE. 2, MOUNDSVILLE, WV 12,184,781

47. CHEMICAL WASTE MANAGEMENT INC. ., 35251 OLD SKYLINE RD., KETTLEMAN CITY, CA 11,612,188

48. DU PONT BEAUMONT PLANT, STATE HWY. 347, BEAUMONT, TX 11,481,768

49. ALABAMA POWER CO. GASTON STEAM PLANT, HWY. 25, WILSONVILLE, AL 11,173,456
50. BRANDON SHORES & WAGNER COMPLEX, 1000 BRANDON SHORES RD., BALTIMORE, MD 10,807,520

51. TAMPA ELECTRIC CO. GANNON STATION, 3602 PORT SUTTON RD., TAMPA, FL 10,683,742

52. GIBSON GENERATING STATION, STATE RTE. 64 W., PRINCETON, IN 10,322,650

53. GULF POWER CO. PLANT CRIST, 11999 PATE RD., PENSACOLA, FL 10,276,006

54. GEORGIA POWER BRANCH STEAM ELECTRIC GENERATING PLANT, 1100 MILLEDGEVILLE RD., MILLEDGEVILLE, GA 9,927,546

55. SANDERS LEAD CO. INC., 1 SANDERS RD., TROY, AL 9,855,305

56. DU PONT VICTORIA PLANT, 2695 OLD BLOOMINGTON RD. N., VICTORIA, TX 9,817,150

57. COLSTRIP STEAM ELECTRIC STATION, WILLOW AVE., COLSTRIP, MT 9,814,262

58. AN ELECTRIC POWER MUSKINGUM RIVER PLANT, COUNTY LN. RD. #32, BEVERLY, OH 9,735,675

59. HECLA MINING CO. LUCKY FRIDAY MINE UNIT, I-90 EXIT 69 OLD HYW. 10, MULLAN, ID 9,500,520

60. CYTEC INDS. INC. FORTIER PLANT, 10800 RIVER RD., WESTWEGO, LA 9,252,895

61. JEA ST. JOHNS RIVER POWER PARK/NORTHSIDE GENERATING STATION, 11201 NEW BERLIN RD., JACKSONVILLE, FL 9,206,469

62. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER CARDINAL PLANT, 306 COUNTY RD. 7 E., BRILLIANT, OH 9,025,126

63. U.S. TVA KINGSTON FOSSIL PLANT, 714 SWAN POND RD., HARRIMAN, TN 8,948,680

64. COEUR SILVER VALLEY, 1041 LAKE GULCH RD., WALLACE, ID 8,751,125

65. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER CONESVILLE PLANT, 47201 COUNTY RD. 273, CONESVILLE, OH 8,651,737

66. CHEMICAL WASTE MANAGEMENT OF THE NORTHWEST INC., 17629 CEDAR SPRINGS LN., ARLINGTON, OR 8,504,773

67. ALABAMA POWER CO. GREENE COUNTY STEAM PLANT, HWY. 43 & COUNTY RD. 18, FORKLAND, AL 8,249,663

68. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER MOUNTAINEER PLANT, RTE. 33, NEW HAVEN, WV 7,744,684

69. NORTHERN STATES POWER CO., 13999 INDUSTRIAL BLVD., BECKER, MN 7,723,914

70. CF INDS. INC., 39018 HWY. 3089, DONALDSONVILLE, LA 7,717,617

71. OHIO VALLEY ELECTRIC CORP. KYGER CREEK STATION, 5758 STATE RTE. 7 N., CHESHIRE, OH 7,614,742

72. MONSANTO - LULING, 12501 RIVER RD., LULING, LA 7,584,858

73. KENTUCKY UTILITIES CO. GHENT STATION, 9485 US HWY. 42E, GHENT, KY 7,551,578

74. AMEREN ENERGY GENERATING COFFEEN POWER STATION, 134 CIPS LN., COFFEEN, IL 7,482,004

75. ANGUS CHEMICAL CO., 350 LOUISIANA HWY. 2, STERLINGTON, LA 7,398,978

76. ALLEGHENY ENERGY INC. HATFIELD POWER STATION, 2907 E. ROY FURMAN HWY., MASONTOWN, PA 7,384,504

77. MORGANTOWN GENERATING STATION, 12620 CRAIN HWY., NEWBURG, MD 7,248,405

78. COASTAL CHEM INC., 8305 OTTO RD., CHEYENNE, WY 7,211,456
79. SEMINOLE GENERATING STATION, 890 N. U.S. HWY. 17, PALATKA, FL 7,148,089
80. WANSLEY STEAM ELECTRIC GENERATING PLANT, LIBERTY CHURCH RD., ROOPVILLE, GA 6,999,304

81. DOE RUN CO. GLOVER SMELTER, HWY. 49, GLOVER, MO 6,849,041

82. SOUTHERN GARDENS CITRUS PROCESSING CORP., 755 COUNTY RD. 833, CLEWISTON, FL 6,747,383

83. J. H. CAMPBELL GENERATING PLANT, 17000 CROSWELL ST., WEST OLIVE, MI 6,688,331

84. CINERGY MIAMI FORT GENERATING STATION, 11021 BROWER RD., NORTH BEND, OH 6,476,746

85. INTERNATIONAL PAPER, 1202 LOUISIANA HWY. 509, MANSFIELD, LA 6,460,515

86. U.S. TVA PARADISE FOSSIL PLANT, 13246 STATE RTE. 176 STE. 10, DRAKESBORO, KY 6,331,552

87. CLEAN HARBORS GRASSY MOUNTAIN L.L.C., 3 MILES E. 7 MILES N. EXIT 41 ON I-80, GRANTSVILLE, UT 6,311,180

88. CHESTERFIELD POWER STATION, 500 COXENDALE RD., CHESTER, VA 6,290,043

89. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWERBIG SANDY PLANT, US 23, 6 MILES N., LOUISA, KY 6,152,680

90. FORT MARTIN POWER STATION, RTE. 53, MAIDSVILLE, WV 6,055,494

91. SPURLOCK POWER STATION, RTE.8, MAYSVILLE, KY 6,027,080

92. IBP INC., 1500 S. BRIDGE ST., LEXINGTON, NE 6,009,910

93. CHEMICAL WASTE MANAGEMENT, HWY. 17 N. MILEMARKER 163, EMELLE, AL 5,961,440

94. TXU MONTICELLO STEAM ELECTRIC STATION & LIGNITE MINE, OFF FM 127 8 MI S.W. OF MT. PLEASANT, MOUNT PLEASANT, TX 5,783,258

95. USS FAIRFIELD WORKS, 5700 VALLEY RD., FAIRFIELD, AL 5,707,203

96. AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER PHILIP SPORN PLANT, STATE RTE. 33, NEW HAVEN, WV 5,681,371

97. DUKE ENERY PLANT ALLEN, 253 PLANT ALLEN RD., BELMONT, NC 5,636,930

98. GREAT RIVER ENERGY COAL CREEK STATION, 2875 3RD ST. S.W., UNDERWOOD, ND 5,631,641

99. CLIFTY CREEK STATION, 1335 CLIFTY HOLLOW RD., MADISON, IN 5,542,765

100. U.S. TVA BULL RUN FOSSIL PLANT, 1265 EDGEMOOR RD., CLINTON, TN

 

[Meghan54]

EPA Superfund sites as of Nov. 2013...soil/groundwater contamination, btw. (Air pollution does not count.) Red dots are active sites, green are cleaned.

 

[Meghan54]

Leading the way? You mean by overthrowing the Chinese government? Because otherwise your post is just tu quoque fallacy and a restatement of the argument I just successfully rebutted.

You successfully rebutted nothing except to give your opinion.

The EPA's Superfund NPL, National Priority List, has currently (as of Nov. 2016), 1337 sites identified as soil/groundwater contaminated. (157 Federal sites, 1180 "private" or non-govt. sites.)

There have been 392 sites cleaned and removed from the EPA's NPL list. There are another 53 proposed sites to be added...3 govt. sites, 50 non-govt.

https://www.epa.gov/superfund/superfund-national-priorities-list-npl


BTW....there aren't many on there just for lead or arsenic or DDT contamination. And remember, these are just Superfund sites, the worst of the worst. The contamination's got to be pretty damned bad to be included on the Superfund list.

 

[MongGrel]

Kinda like us not too long ago, huh?

That DDT thing was pretty major in it's day.


*edit* NM Meghan hit that one also. I didn't read down this one enough first, derp.

 

[superstition]

You successfully rebutted nothing except to give your opinion.

You didn't read what I wrote, then. Some of the things I wrote are not opinions. They're facts.

One of them, for instance, is that the USA's big pollution issues were solved — well before China's arose to the current crisis levels. Time passes in a linear manner and people are capable of learning from others who made mistakes before they did and corrected them.

But, please feel free to ignore what I wrote if it makes you happy.

 

[superstition]

Okay. So this puts a rest to the absurd "The US is as bad as China" nonsense.

If this isn't enough, take a look at what percentage of total soil the Chinese government already admitted is extremely polluted. Cadmium, hexavalent chromium, arsenic, mercury, lead, and the like are very persistent in soil.

The US has some tainted soil from arsenic/lead pesticides used prior to DDT (much worse than DDT except for birds) but it also has California, a place where soil is generally not polluted — as a major farming zone.