Thoughtful Time Europe article on US-European relations

hagbard

Banned
Nov 30, 2000
2,775
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Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: hagbard
Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.

First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: charrison
First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

Why? Because he disagrees with you?

No, because it is completely one sided. There is such a thing as balance.

Maybe that is his opinion on the matter? Well, I haven't really read it yet, I'm still reading the other article.

Kim Jong Il may not have used chemical weapons, but he has starved and oppressed his own people, blown up South Korean officials, kidnapped Japanese teenagers to use as language teachers for spies, proliferated missiles and placed 10,000 artillery pieces within 20 km of Seoul. Oh yeah, and he's likely built his own nukes, is now seeking more, and last week renounced his treaty obligations not to build them and threatened that any sanctions against his country would be tantamount to "a declaration of war." Bush says diplomacy, not war, is the appropriate route with Pyongyang ? in which case, many Europeans ask, why not with Baghdad too?

I have wondered that myself.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: charrison
First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

Why? Because he disagrees with you?

No, because it is completely one sided. There is such a thing as balance.

Maybe that is his opinion on the matter? Well, I haven't really read it yet, I'm still reading the other article.

Kim Jong Il may not have used chemical weapons, but he has starved and oppressed his own people, blown up South Korean officials, kidnapped Japanese teenagers to use as language teachers for spies, proliferated missiles and placed 10,000 artillery pieces within 20 km of Seoul. Oh yeah, and he's likely built his own nukes, is now seeking more, and last week renounced his treaty obligations not to build them and threatened that any sanctions against his country would be tantamount to "a declaration of war." Bush says diplomacy, not war, is the appropriate route with Pyongyang ? in which case, many Europeans ask, why not with Baghdad too?

I have wondered that myself.


There is a real simple answer to this. We have more political might with NK. China, Russia and Japan are interested in keeping NK in check. Also, we could manage to fight both NK and Iraq at the same time, but we would prefer not to as our military really lacks the manpower to do so. We also cannot just drop what we are doing in Iraq as it takes much time to move machines and manpower. Once the problem in Iraq is solved, we might just see a buildup in SK if the NK continues to act as it is. I am sure at that point, the EU community will be whining about us bullying NK.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: hagbard
Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.

First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

The second might be junk in your opinion and I might not agree with all his points but a lot of Euro's feel the same way he does. An interesting point made in the first acticle is that many of the Europeans felt that after the 9/11 attack the US became more introverted. We started to totally ignore our allies opinions and instead decreed ultimatums like "If you aren't totally with us you are against us" which is like saying that we aren't open to any type of dialogue with them regarding how we should go about dealing with the issues regarding Iraq. When they have complained about this those in power in Washington dismiss those complaints as whining from "Euro Wimps". I believe that if we want their support we are going to have to at least listen to their viewpoints regarding any actions taking against Iraq with some ernest consideration. Whether we eventually disagree with them or not isn't as much the point as is having them participate in a dialogue regarding the final decision.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
There is a real simple answer to this. We have more political might with NK.

Or because Iraq has about 10% of worlds oil-reserves, while NK has no oil.

Also, we could manage to fight both NK and Iraq at the same time, but we would prefer not to as our military really lacks the manpower to do so.

If that's the case, why not first deal with NK, then with Iraq? I mean, NK is clearly more dangerous than Iraq is. They have kicked out the international observers, they have restarted their nuclear program, their talk is extremely aggressive. Why is Iraq still the threat #1?

We also cannot just drop what we are doing in Iraq as it takes much time to move machines and manpower.

really? You already have tens of thousands of men in SK, increasing that number shouldn't be difficult. And the military-buildup in the Gulf seems to be happening pretty fast.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
I have wondered that myself.

Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

Why We Won?t Invade North Korea

by Orson Scott Card

We?ve been hearing it from a lot of anti-Bush commentators ? including some who should know better:

?Why are we preparing to invade Iraq, which has no nukes yet, when we?re using diplomacy with North Korea, which actually has them??

Of course, you can take that as a self-answering question. Let?s see ? which is safer to invade, the country that almost has nukes, or the country that already has them?

But the real answer is much more complicated.

First, let?s keep in mind what we?re actually trying to accomplish in Iraq. We aren?t preparing to invade because Saddam Hussein?s been a bad boy, or because we want to have an America colony in Mesopotamia. It?s not a punishment, it?s not retribution.

It?s prevention.

You can?t fight a war to prevent something that?s already happened. Preventive war to keep North Korea from getting nukes is impossible.

At the same time, it is absolutely imperative that North Korea?s nukes be neutralized. But how is that to be done?

For some Americans, the first thought is, ?Send in the Marines!?

But military action should never be the first resort. Every time you use military force, you teach your enemies how to defeat you the next time. The best use of military force is to create the impression of invincibility ? and then avoid testing it.

Conventional military action is not quite the last resort, however. I would put ?nuking them back to the Stone Age? even farther down the list. Even lower than ?sending Bill Clinton to negotiate another great treaty.?

Most people don?t understand what President Bush means when he says that we will pursue a ?diplomatic solution.?

He doesn?t mean that we?ll negotiate with North Korea. What would be the point of that? They don?t keep their treaties anyway.

The diplomacy that will solve the problem is happening right now ? between us and China.

That?s right, China. Because this is China?s problem as much as it is ours.

The only reason North Korea exists as a separate political entity is because in the early ?50s, when UN forces had virtually overrun all of North Korea, China sent a huge army that flung us back south. Only when each army held roughly the territory that had been North or South Korea before the war did the Chinese agree to an armistice.

This was a huge victory for China, and it remains one of the proudest moments in their history. Never mind that it has meant 50 years of desperate poverty and utter lack of freedom, while being forced to virtually worship a couple of megalomaniacal dictators. China beat the US-led allies and kept North Korea safe for communism.

Do you think there?s even the slightest chance that China would let the US conduct any kind of military action against North Korea without massive retaliation?

At the very least, there would be a prompt invasion of Taiwan. At the worst, it might mean some level of nuclear war ? certainly against South Korea, and quite possibly against Japan and even the US.

Foreign policy is conducted in the real world. In the real world, madmen like Saddam Hussein respond only to credible military force ? and sometimes not even then. For the safety of our friends and allies in the region (notably Israel, Turkey, Jordan and Kuwait), and to protect the First World?s vital oil supplies from domination by a ruthless enemy, it is reasonable to strike that enemy before he wreaks devastation again.

In that same real world, however, there are opponents whom it is simply too dangerous to fight, unless you are forced into it. If China or Russia attacked us, of course we would defend ourselves. But we would have to be insane to provoke either of them into war.

That?s why we left Russia to deal with Chechnya without our interference while using military force to protect Bosnia and Kosovo from the Serbs.

Does this mean that we?re like bullies, picking on the little guys while leaving really dangerous enemies alone?

Not at all. It means that while we have a moral responsibility to prevent truly dangerous or evil actions wherever it is within our power to do so, we can?t do it where it is not within our power without unleashing worse evils on the world.

Militarily challenging Russia over Chechnya would almost certainly have plunged the world into a massive war, to no good end.

Likewise, taking military action in North Korea would lead to immediate war with China. And sane people don?t want that.

So what do our negotiations with China consist of?

Cutting through all the diplomatic niceness, here?s what we undoubtedly said to them:

?You?re the ones who kept us from getting rid of the Kim dictatorship 50 years ago. So now it?s your responsibility either to take away their nukes, or get rid of the Kim government and replace it with a sane one.?

To which the Chinese almost certainly replied, ?Perhaps we can work something out. You can take the first step by withdrawing all military support from Taiwan. After all, why should we be responsible for North Korea, which isn?t part of China, while you won?t let us take responsibility for Taiwan, which is an integral part of China??

Our reply: ?We will not discuss Taiwan.?

Their reply: ?Then we will not discuss North Korea.?

All this was absolutely predictable and led nowhere. Here?s how we raised the ante: ?All right. Since you have allowed North Korea to develop and build nuclear weapons, while we have prevented the much-more-technologically-advanced South Koreans from doing so, we have no choice but to level the playing field so that North Korea will not be able to threaten our allies.?

Those options would include:

(1) Stationing tactical nuclear weapons in South Korea ... with the option of placing them under the control of the South Koreans.

(2) An embargo ? or even a blockade ? of North Korea?s ports, so that China becomes the sole supplier of all goods to North Korea.

(3) Holding China economically responsible by cutting back ? or cutting off ? trade between the US and China.

None of these options would be tolerable to the Chinese. Putting nukes in South Korea would humiliate the Chinese leadership. Putting them under South Korean command would terrify them.

Economic sanctions against North Korea would force China, whose economy is not all that robust, to assume the huge burden of keeping North Korea afloat the way the USSR did with Cuba for so many years.

As for sanctions against China itself ? its economy has become significantly tied to trade with the US. America could trigger a major recession or perhaps even a depression in China, even if we couldn?t persuade other economic powers to join with us.

Now, the Chinese know that none of these options would be painless for us. Stationing nukes in South Korea would provoke massive anti-American demonstrations in that country and in Japan as well.

An embargo against North Korea would be slow and sievelike, while a blockade would be casus belli and lead to confrontations between us and friendly powers.

And a cutback in US-China trade would hurt our economy, too, and there are those who think our own highly-evolved economy is less resilient than China?s more primitive one. (I think, however, that they are wrong.)

But even though the Chinese know that we are reluctant to use any of these options, they also know that President Bush means what he says, and, because he is his father?s son, they believe he will act on his threats even if it means political risks.

And there is another factor that the Chinese leadership always has to keep in mind: the possibility that any of these events might trigger domestic disturbances, a coup or even a revolution within China.

Dictators live in constant terror of a mob of civilians swarming through their palaces or office buildings, dragging the dictators out into the streets, and killing them.

The Chinese have very clear memories of what happened when communism fell in Romania. That?s why they ordered soldiers to fire on their own people in Tiananmen Square.

But they?d rather avoid any possibility of this. So at some point, if they believe that we are sufficiently earnest about the urgency of neutralizing North Korea?s nuclear threat, they will decide that it is in their best interests to do something about North Korea.

And here?s what they?ll do. They?ll talk to Kim and let him know that he has two choices.

(1) Kim lets the Chinese come in and take away his nukes and run his nuclear reactors and make sure he never gets nukes again. In exchange, the Chinese will make loud public guarantees that North Korea is now under their nuclear umbrella, so that there is no need for North Korea to have its own nuclear program.

(2) The Chinese cut him off from all economic and military aid from any source, and let it be known that they very much want a new, anti-nuke government in Pyongyang. Kim knows he wouldn?t last a week before one of his enterprising generals ? perhaps one of those already in the pay of Beijing ? decided that a change of government was in order.

One way or another, North Korea would be de-nuked. And it would all be done through diplomacy.

The reason none of this could work with Iraq is that there is no power in the Middle East comparable to China?s situation vis-à-vis North Korea. We are the only nation that can put a stop to Saddam?s ambitions.

But the key, of course, is that none of these conversations would take place in public. China can only bend to US pressure when they are not seen to be bending to US pressure.

In other words, if President Bush openly threatened China, then China could not cooperate with us without losing face ? with the risk of a coup.

That is why President Bush cannot answer his critics. There is no answer he could give that would not wreck the diplomatic process.

When an American pundit or politician criticizes President Bush for being a hypocrite or a bully because he?s using diplomacy with North Korea and the threat of war with Iraq, it tells us one of two things.

Either the critic is hopelessly ignorant about geopolitical and diplomatic realities ? or the critic knows that President Bush cannot respond to his criticism, and therefore the critic can make political profit at the expense of American foreign policy.

In other words, those who make this particular accusation against the president are either squirrels or snakes: either chattering stupidly or poisonously biting the president while he?s trying to protect us and our friends from a serious danger.

I prefer to think that these critics simply haven?t thought things through. And I?m happy to point out that few of those who have made this particular accusation are responsible officeholders.

You don?t throw rocks at the guy who?s trying to tame the tiger.

And what about me? Haven?t I just made all those private negotiations public?

Of course not. The Chinese don?t care what I say. I don?t speak for the government. I don?t have any contacts in the White House or the State Department.

I?m just a guy who knows how to read a map.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: hagbard
Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.

First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

The second might be junk in your opinion and I might not agree with all his points but a lot of Euro's feel the same way he does. An interesting point made in the first acticle is that many of the Europeans felt that after the 9/11 attack the US became more introverted. We started to totally ignore our allies opinions and instead decreed ultimatums like "If you aren't totally with us you are against us" which is like saying that we aren't open to any type of dialogue with them regarding how we should go about dealing with the issues regarding Iraq. When they have complained about this those in power in Washington dismiss those complaints as whining from "Euro Wimps". I believe that if we want their support we are going to have to at least listen to their viewpoints regarding any actions taking against Iraq with some ernest consideration. Whether we eventually disagree with them or not isn't as much the point as is having them participate in a dialogue regarding the final decision.

Well I can see how the Euros might feel pressured by such a statement. But at the same time, we have a few things to take care of, and the Euros are only there to criticize. Have the Euros considered that just maybe we are just tired of hearing the useless criticism? Maybe there is a reason we have just stopped listening to them. I mean how long will you listen to a broken record?

The euros are content to let us continue keeping iraq in a box, but really dont want us the finish him off and actually solve the problem. The Euros also had no problem when the previous admin used force to get inspectors back in iraq.

 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort.

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: hagbard
Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.

First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

The second might be junk in your opinion and I might not agree with all his points but a lot of Euro's feel the same way he does. An interesting point made in the first acticle is that many of the Europeans felt that after the 9/11 attack the US became more introverted. We started to totally ignore our allies opinions and instead decreed ultimatums like "If you aren't totally with us you are against us" which is like saying that we aren't open to any type of dialogue with them regarding how we should go about dealing with the issues regarding Iraq. When they have complained about this those in power in Washington dismiss those complaints as whining from "Euro Wimps". I believe that if we want their support we are going to have to at least listen to their viewpoints regarding any actions taking against Iraq with some ernest consideration. Whether we eventually disagree with them or not isn't as much the point as is having them participate in a dialogue regarding the final decision.

Well I can see how the Euros might feel pressured by such a statement. But at the same time, we have a few things to take care of, and the Euros are only there to criticize. Have the Euros considered that just maybe we are just tired of hearing the useless criticism? Maybe there is a reason we have just stopped listening to them. I mean how long will you listen to a broken record?

The euros are content to let us continue keeping iraq in a box, but really dont want us the finish him off and actually solve the problem. The Euros also had no problem when the previous admin used force to get inspectors back in iraq.
Maybe the reason why they had no problem with the previous Adminstration using force was because they were involved in a dialogue with that Adminstration regarding those actions.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
I have wondered that myself.

Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort. /q]

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)


One question.

What year was the GULF WAR.

ok two questions

HOW MANY YEARS DOES THE SITUATION IN IRAQ HAVE TO GO ON?

damn, first choice my ass.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: charrison
There is a real simple answer to this. We have more political might with NK.

Or because Iraq has about 10% of worlds oil-reserves, while NK has no oil.


Or you could try listening when the administration says the iraqi oil belong to the iraq people. We might siphon a little off the top to pay for reconstruction, but that is all i see happening. Also expect to see russian oil contract honored. Dont be surprised when the big french oil company goes into a iraq as well.


Also, we could manage to fight both NK and Iraq at the same time, but we would prefer not to as our military really lacks the manpower to do so.

If that's the case, why not first deal with NK, then with Iraq? I mean, NK is clearly more dangerous than Iraq is. They have kicked out the international observers, they have restarted their nuclear program, their talk is extremely aggressive. Why is Iraq still the threat #1?

Because we are were already 60 days into a 120 troop mobilization plan. It is just not ecnomically a good idea to restart that process if we dont have too. LIke we are doing in iraq, we can continue exhaustiong diplomatic efforts until force is required.


We also cannot just drop what we are doing in Iraq as it takes much time to move machines and manpower.

really? You already have tens of thousands of men in SK, increasing that number shouldn't be difficult. And the military-buildup in the Gulf seems to be happening pretty fast.

ANd if fast mean it takes 120 days to move several divisions worth of men and machines, I guess it is.

We have about 40k troops in SK and we would need significanly more to have an overwhelming force for the NK 1.2million man army. NK also has abotu 10k atillery peices at the capitcal of south korea right now. This is going to a little more work than iraq, but you can bet it is on the list if NK does not start acting better.


 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort.

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)

So do you think inspectors would be in iraq right now, if no military threat from the US existed? I really dont expect you will answer this question.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
I have wondered that myself.

Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort. /q]

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)

One question.

What year was the GULF WAR.

1991 if I remember correctly

ok two questions

HOW MANY YEARS DOES THE SITUATION IN IRAQ HAVE TO GO ON?

damn, first choice my ass.

Why now? I mean, this situation has been more or less the same for years now. All of a sudden, USA starts insisting that Iraq must be invaded. No matter what the Iraqis do or do not do, GWB's comment is "we must invade Iraq!". Right now, military action is your first (seems to be the only) choice. You don't seem to see any other possibilities. Everything GWB has said has been about invading Iraq. It seems a bit gung-ho attitude to me.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: hagbard
Despite the title, its actually rather favourable to the US, but points out the sore "issues" very well:

Text


Oh, and I just found this on the the same site by my favourate musician, Brian Eno, talking to the same subject:

Text


Thought I must admit, I don't agree with Eno on his social welfare stand, though he does make a good defense of it.
.

First post is relatively balanced, the second is junk.

The second might be junk in your opinion and I might not agree with all his points but a lot of Euro's feel the same way he does. An interesting point made in the first acticle is that many of the Europeans felt that after the 9/11 attack the US became more introverted. We started to totally ignore our allies opinions and instead decreed ultimatums like "If you aren't totally with us you are against us" which is like saying that we aren't open to any type of dialogue with them regarding how we should go about dealing with the issues regarding Iraq. When they have complained about this those in power in Washington dismiss those complaints as whining from "Euro Wimps". I believe that if we want their support we are going to have to at least listen to their viewpoints regarding any actions taking against Iraq with some ernest consideration. Whether we eventually disagree with them or not isn't as much the point as is having them participate in a dialogue regarding the final decision.

Well I can see how the Euros might feel pressured by such a statement. But at the same time, we have a few things to take care of, and the Euros are only there to criticize. Have the Euros considered that just maybe we are just tired of hearing the useless criticism? Maybe there is a reason we have just stopped listening to them. I mean how long will you listen to a broken record?

The euros are content to let us continue keeping iraq in a box, but really dont want us the finish him off and actually solve the problem. The Euros also had no problem when the previous admin used force to get inspectors back in iraq.
Maybe the reason why they had no problem with the previous Adminstration using force was because they were involved in a dialogue with that Adminstration regarding those actions.

Maybe so, but it still was a failed operation because the previous admin no the admin had no intention of using force. As soon as Hussein figured this out, the inspectors were tossed back out.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort.

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)

So do you think inspectors would be in iraq right now, if no military threat from the US existed? I really dont expect you will answer this question.

To be honest, I don't know. But the important thing is that they are there now. If USA has "clear evidence" that Iraq has WMD's, they should come open with them and assist the inspectors. They should allow the inspectors to do their jobs without GWB constantly banging on his chest and shouting "we will invade Iraq!". It seems to me that USA has predetermined to invade Iraq, no matter what the inspectors find (or do not find).
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Why now? I mean, this situation has been more or less the same for years now. All of a sudden, USA starts insisting that Iraq must be invaded. No matter what the Iraqis do or do not do, GWB's comment is "we must invade Iraq!". Right now, military action is your first (seems to be the only) choice. You don't seem to see any other possibilities. Everything GWB has said has been about invading Iraq. It seems a bit gung-ho attitude to me.

Bush has said his paitence with Saddam is running out. He has also said that it is up to Saddam to come clean on where the tons of nerve gas and other materials have gone since the inspectors were last in Iraq.

You'll have to prove to me that " Everything GWB has said has been about invading Iraq". Right now, I am calling BS on that statement.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
I have wondered that myself.

Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort. /q]

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)

One question.

What year was the GULF WAR.

1991 if I remember correctly

ok two questions

HOW MANY YEARS DOES THE SITUATION IN IRAQ HAVE TO GO ON?

damn, first choice my ass.

Why now? I mean, this situation has been more or less the same for years now. All of a sudden, USA starts insisting that Iraq must be invaded. No matter what the Iraqis do or do not do, GWB's comment is "we must invade Iraq!". Right now, military action is your first (seems to be the only) choice. You don't seem to see any other possibilities. Everything GWB has said has been about invading Iraq. It seems a bit gung-ho attitude to me.

Another question for you to dodge and not answer.

How many years and how many billions of dollars must the US spend to keep the middle east safe from iraq? Care to guess how much we have spent in the last 12 years keeping him penned up?

The EU does not see Iraq as a problem, because the US is currently keeping him in check. See no problem.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: etech
Best op-ed piece I have found on the subject.

But military action should never be the first resort.

To me that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that GWB is doing his best to pick a fight with Saddam. Other than that, that was a interesting and an insighful article. Thanks :)

So do you think inspectors would be in iraq right now, if no military threat from the US existed? I really dont expect you will answer this question.

To be honest, I don't know. But the important thing is that they are there now. If USA has "clear evidence" that Iraq has WMD's, they should come open with them and assist the inspectors. They should allow the inspectors to do their jobs without GWB constantly banging on his chest and shouting "we will invade Iraq!". It seems to me that USA has predetermined to invade Iraq, no matter what the inspectors find (or do not find).


Hmm so far the inspectors have found, mustard gas shells, empty chemical weapons rockets, and last week papers describing current uranium enrichment programs. All the while, iraq has provided no information on how and where he destroyed his WMD. Even Blix is becoming frustrated because that documentation is not being provided.

Maybe the US just knew this how the game was going to play out, so we readied our forces in the meantime.
 

kleinesarschloch

Senior member
Jan 18, 2003
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the second article is dead on. i have lived both in europe and in the states, and i can relate to what he is trying to say. on a related note, i hear so many americans say that the USA is the best country in the world. when i ask how many countries they lived in to be able to make such a statement, i am met with silence.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: charrison
Another question for you to dodge and not answer.

Which questiuon did I dodge?

How many years and how many billions of dollars must the US spend to keep the middle east safe from iraq? Care to guess how much we have spent in the last 12 years keeping him penned up?

Is someone forcing you to spend that money? I don't think Iraq is that much of a threat militarily. Large parts of Iraqs military was destroyed during the Gulf War. And if Saddam tries something similar, he knows that he will receive similar treatment as he did in the Gulf War.

The EU does not see Iraq as a problem, because the US is currently keeping him in check. See no problem.

Then don't keep him in check. No-one is forcing you to spend all that money. If you choose to spend it, don't come whining to us that it's so expensive.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: charrison
Hmm so far the inspectors have found, mustard gas shells

Empty shells? Links?

empty chemical weapons rockets

Keyword is "empty". Military expets around the world agree that that is not the "smoking gun" the inspectors are looking for

and last week papers describing current uranium enrichment programs.

If the papers are genuine and they describe their current program, then that is clear enough evidence regarding Iraqs WMD program IMO (read: "smoking gun").