Those against redistribution of wealth

[manlymatt83]

I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man how to fish, feed them for a lifetime. People need to have goals - to work up to being good fishermen.

There have been true socialist societies attempted, and they failed horribly. Most people stop bettering themselves if there is no direct compensation for being becoming better.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

Well, their primary argument is that is they put themselves into those circumstances. Of course the opposing sides argues that's not exactly the case.

 

[CPA]

My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

so is that why democrats have lower charitable contributions than republicans?

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man how to fish, feed them for a lifetime. People need to have goals - to work up to being good fishermen.

There have been true socialist societies attempted, and they failed horribly. Most people stop bettering themselves if there is no direct compensation for being becoming better.

That makes a TON of sense. And while I consider myself fairly liberal (and for things like social health care, etc.), I've always been against the fact that it's quite obvious that some people work harder than others to achieve their goals and should be rewarded better.

Sure, there are poor people on the streets panhandling. Could they get a job any other way? Is it possible?

 

[Kirby]

I say fuck em. If I want to give them money, I will. I don't need the government to force me to be compassionate.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

So are you saying that instead of having social programs, leave more money in the pockets of people that make the money and allow them to choose who to help?

 

[Lemon law]

Get a clue, everything the government does or does not do has an effect of transferring wealth. There are simply wise and not very wise ways to do it.

 

[daniel49]

having worked with people on the streets, let me say first
1)you cannot help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
2)This requires discerning those that actually need a hand up as opposed to the leeches of society.
3)Private individuals and organizations are much more adept and efficient at this then govt is.
4)Men and women need pride in what they accomplish in life, not in what the Govt gives them.
5)We need to do a better job as a society in helping the mentally ill.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

So are you saying that instead of having social programs, leave more money in the pockets of people that make the money and allow them to choose who to help?

Get a job/education. Being lazy should not be rewarded.

There is a reason why "socialist" is a dirty word.

 

[CycloWizard]

The primary argument against is that if I FEEL that my wealth should be redistributed, I can redistribute it as I see fit. Why should the government redistribute my wealth for me at gunpoint? When the government does it, the keep some for themselves due to huge overhead expenses.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The primary argument against is that if I FEEL that my wealth should be redistributed, I can redistribute it as I see fit. Why should the government redistribute my wealth for me at gunpoint? When the government does it, the keep some for themselves due to huge overhead expenses.

I'm sure they cover the waste by taking more than you would otherwise give.

 

[ParticleMan]

Originally posted by: daniel49
1)you cannot help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
2)This requires discerning those that actually need a hand up as opposed to the leeches of society.
3)Private individuals and organizations are much more adept and efficient at this then govt is.
4)Men and women need pride in what they accomplish in life, not in what the Govt gives them.
5)We need to do a better job as a society in helping the mentally ill.

I'd agree with all of those statements. It's the "hand up not hand out" concept.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

So are you saying that instead of having social programs, leave more money in the pockets of people that make the money and allow them to choose who to help?

Get a job/education. Being lazy should not be rewarded.

There is a reason why "socialist" is a dirty word.

do you actually believe the wealthy in this country worked hard for it? i would say they tend to work smarter for it. there are plenty of Americans working hard 60+ hours a week and just getting by. the reality is that our economy can not survive without those laborers and there will always be income disparity.

 

[Moonbeam]

People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn. How did they come to deserve to be alive. It you're alive you own nothing less than infinite gratitude, no?

The first thing those whose infinite fortune is life start thinking soon after being born, is themselves, and nobody else. And this is because they are taught from the first day is to hate life and themselves.

All your cabbage that you collect to flatter your ego will be taken away, and you will never enjoy it anyway, be of your fear you'll lose it.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: alien42
do you actually believe the wealthy in this country worked hard for it? i would say they tend to work smarter for it.

Those "smart" workers putting in just as many hours, if not more. Just because they aren't using their muscles doesn't mean it isn't hard work.

And we really shouldn't clump all the wealthy into a single group. Some inherited their money and just ride on it, some started from scratch, some are "wealthy" but are just upper middle class still living within their means, some are incredibly wealthy and don't even know how many houses they own.

I grew up poor. I paid for college on loans, bought my own first car, worked long hours and got myself certified. In another 5 years I hope to break 100k. By the time I retire, I wish I'd be past 250k, but it might not happen. By then I would consider myself wealthy, and no way in hell did someone give that to me. Wealth is relative. It seems like most people on this forum equate wealth with whatever is more than what they make now.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: ParticleMan

Originally posted by: daniel49
1)you cannot help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
2)This requires discerning those that actually need a hand up as opposed to the leeches of society.
3)Private individuals and organizations are much more adept and efficient at this then govt is.
4)Men and women need pride in what they accomplish in life, not in what the Govt gives them.
5)We need to do a better job as a society in helping the mentally ill.

I'd agree with all of those statements. It's the "hand up not hand out" concept.

Can you explain hand up? As in, instead of giving, you'll hold your hand in the air to support?

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: ParticleMan

Originally posted by: daniel49
1)you cannot help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
2)This requires discerning those that actually need a hand up as opposed to the leeches of society.
3)Private individuals and organizations are much more adept and efficient at this then govt is.
4)Men and women need pride in what they accomplish in life, not in what the Govt gives them.
5)We need to do a better job as a society in helping the mentally ill.

I'd agree with all of those statements. It's the "hand up not hand out" concept.

Can you explain hand up? As in, instead of giving, you'll hold your hand in the air to support?

Temporary help with the expectation that given an opportunity to change your luck.
You will become self sufficient and capable of helping others.

 

[Possessed Freak]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn. How did they come to deserve to be alive. It you're alive you own nothing less than infinite gratitude, no?

The first thing those whose infinite fortune is life start thinking soon after being born, is themselves, and nobody else. And this is because they are taught from the first day is to hate life and themselves.

All your cabbage that you collect to flatter your ego will be taken away, and you will never enjoy it anyway, be of your fear you'll lose it.

Good philosophizing... money does not equal ego to me, and believe me when I say I spend my money pretty liberally. My goal is to die a poor poor man, otherwise I wasted my time working with no reward.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man how to fish, feed them for a lifetime. People need to have goals - to work up to being good fishermen.

There have been true socialist societies attempted, and they failed horribly. Most people stop bettering themselves if there is no direct compensation for being becoming better.

Bulls**t, Teach a man to fish and he will drink beer all day!

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

There's a difference between choosing to help others and being forced to do it. Lots of Christians think you have a moral obligation to attend church on Sunday. How would you feel about a law requiring that you do that?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man how to fish, feed them for a lifetime. People need to have goals - to work up to being good fishermen.

There have been true socialist societies attempted, and they failed horribly. Most people stop bettering themselves if there is no direct compensation for being becoming better.

It is very difficult to fish when the water is so far away and it keeps moving farther and farther and farther.

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach the man how to fish, feed them for a lifetime. People need to have goals - to work up to being good fishermen.

There have been true socialist societies attempted, and they failed horribly. Most people stop bettering themselves if there is no direct compensation for being becoming better.

It is very difficult to fish when the water is so far away and it keeps moving farther and farther and farther.

Then that person starves and the person who can run fast enough to catch up with the water lives, making society as a whole better able to survive.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
It is very difficult to fish when the water is so far away and it keeps moving farther and farther and farther.

So do you bring people closer to the water, try to bring the water closer to the people, or just say F it, take the fish from people who just caught it and ship it to the other end?