This is why the Democrats cannot - will not - "negotiate"

[nehalem256]

"Negotiating" in this situation means following the agenda of the wacko wing of the GOP in the House of Representatives.

What are the consequences if the Democrats did this?
1. They would lose their jobs in the next election. Most of the country and definitely their constituency do not want to overturn the New Deal et al, transfer the tax burden further onto the poor, working and middle classes, etc.
2. It would establish a precedence for people who want to overturn the US government and Constitution by using budgetary chaos.

Democrats are just butt-hurt that Republicans finally figure out a bigger hostage for extortion than them.

A large part of the wacko Democrats agenda is using children to as hostages so that women can get whatever they want. WAHHHHHHH, if we cut 5% off food stamps children will starve, WAHHHHHHHHHH

Republicans saw how effective that was and raised the stakes to the whole budget.

The real reason that Democrats cannot negotiate is because they have zero leverage. Republicans want a smaller government and get it with the shut/slimdown.

 

[fskimospy]

Anyone surprised that nehalem found a way to bring his hatred if women into this? Lol.

What a fucking psycho.

 

[nehalem256]

The Republicans are not serious about the debt and deficit until they acknowledge our military budget, which FAR outweighs everything in the budget sans entitlements and would be an infinitely easier pill for the public to swallow if it were cut.

Please show me EVIDENCE that the GOP want to cut defense spending.

See the sequester cuts. ~1/2 was to the military. I didn't see the GOP throwing a fit about it, though the Democrats did.

 

[glenn1]

Democrats are just butt-hurt that Republicans finally figure out a bigger hostage for extortion than them.

A large part of the wacko Democrats agenda is using children to as hostages so that women can get whatever they want. WAHHHHHHH, if we cut 5% off food stamps children will starve, WAHHHHHHHHHH

Republicans saw how effective that was and raised the stakes to the whole budget.

The real reason that Democrats cannot negotiate is because they have zero leverage. Republicans want a smaller government and get it with the shut/slimdown.

They have zero leverage because Democrats have very little of value worth negotiating for; delay in Obamacare and spending cuts is about all that's really of value to Republicans. Democrats keep holding out "seeming reasonable" and stopping name calling ("hostage takers!") as if they're something of value, which is laughable on its face.

Protip for Democrats - if you completely refuse to discuss postponement of Obamacare, then that leaves spending cuts. And since Republicans can get huge spending cuts by doing nothing and allowing the shutdown to continue and not extend the debt ceiling, then I don't see where Democrats think "not negotiating" is such a great plan. It didn't work with sequester and it won't work now.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

See the sequester cuts. ~1/2 was to the military. I didn't see the GOP throwing a fit about it, though the Democrats did.

Right. The GOP didn't try to remove the defense cuts from the agreement they made when it came time. More revisionist history?

Just one of many examples.

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hil...ans-push-new-bills-to-avoid-defense-sequester

 

[boomerang]

The Constitution says all laws are decided by the President and the Senate...... Oh wait

You're at the heart of it with this statement.

Look at the portion shira bolded in the OP. The left fully and totally believes they have a right to do what they wish. When questioned, they throw a hissy fit. They don't want to compromise because they might then have to compromise at a later date. That's not acceptable! They wish to dictate how things are going to be. Dissension is not acceptable and should not have to be entertained in any form. How many times has Obama told us "we won"?

Combine that with a perceived fluidity in the roles of the branches of our government. When desired, the executive branch becomes the legislative branch. We control two branches of government and we may do as we please!

Those of us that don't identify with the progressive left have a duty, a duty to resist and we are doing so. Whether the progressive left comes to grips with it or not makes zero difference to me.

 

[JTsyo]

Another thing to consider is that the current CR that is to be passed already has cuts that the GOP demanded. So it's a spending level they approved of but are currently just holding it until they can get something out from ACA. As far as I can see this wasn't about policy but politics. Might just be Ted Cruz trying to make himself a viable candidate for 2016.

 

[nehalem256]

Right. The GOP didn't try to remove the defense cuts from the agreement they made when it came time. More revisionist history?

Just one of many examples.

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hil...ans-push-new-bills-to-avoid-defense-sequester

Military cuts are not the GOPs preferred government cuts but they still seem to have less of an issue with them than the Democrats...

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...-defense-cuts-but-does-nothing-to-repeal-them

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ester-newport-news-mcconnell-boehner/1948535/

 

[ivwshane]

Military cuts are not the GOPs preferred government cuts but they still seem to have less of an issue with them than the Democrats...

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...-defense-cuts-but-does-nothing-to-repeal-them

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ester-newport-news-mcconnell-boehner/1948535/

Goal posts moved...

 

[Buxaroo]

You're at the heart of it with this statement.

Look at the portion shira bolded in the OP. The left fully and totally believes they have a right to do what they wish. When questioned, they throw a hissy fit. They don't want to compromise because they might then have to compromise at a later date. That's not acceptable! They wish to dictate how things are going to be. Dissension is not acceptable and should not have to be entertained in any form. How many times has Obama told us "we won"?

Combine that with a perceived fluidity in the roles of the branches of our government. When desired, the executive branch becomes the legislative branch. We control two branches of government and we may do as we please!

Those of us that don't identify with the progressive left have a duty, a duty to resist and we are doing so. Whether the progressive left comes to grips with it or not makes zero difference to me.

What part of democracy do you not understand? You sound like the typical virgin Ayn Rand follower. This LAW was passed with over whelming support, period. And Dems had control over Congress, Senate, and the Presidency when it was passed. Period. It has passed all litmus tests. And that INCLUDES the conservative-leaning Supreme Court. It is LAW. To deny funding, when the MAJORITY support it, is flat out hostage taking. And what's wrong with progressive? If it makes zero difference to you, then why do you care enough?

But guess what? Just about every non-tea party conservative I know thinks this whole thing is a fucking train wreck from start to finish and has ZERO reason for existing. And everyone of them said they are going to vote in the midterms for any one running against any incumbent who is voting for this. And this is in Atlanta. Please show me how this in anyway is going to make a difference? Democrats are not going to bend, nor should they, because let me make this perfectly clear, IT IS ALREADY LAW. It has been voted on OVERWHELMINGLY. Because the new mentally retarded idiot freshmen "didn't get to vote on it" is NOT an argument. Why not do this for every law on the books? Hell, lets all vote today for Civil Rights, after all I didn't get a "chance" to vote on it.

Pucker up butter cup, your neocon/Ayn Rand worshiping ideology is a dead end, there is no evidence that it works nor will it ever work in a modern society. It's just pipe dreams from angry white guys who seem to have a cutoff of oxygen to certain parts of the cerebral cortex.

 

[nehalem256]

Goal posts moved...

I said I didnt see the GOP throwing a fit about the military sequester cuts and I stand by that. Trying to remove your preferred cuts is not "throwing a fit".

The GOP decided they were willing to let the military cuts go through to get the other non-military cuts.

Doesn't sound to me like a group of people unwilling to cut military spending.

 

[fskimospy]

They have zero leverage because Democrats have very little of value worth negotiating for; delay in Obamacare and spending cuts is about all that's really of value to Republicans. Democrats keep holding out "seeming reasonable" and stopping name calling ("hostage takers!") as if they're something of value, which is laughable on its face.

Protip for Democrats - if you completely refuse to discuss postponement of Obamacare, then that leaves spending cuts. And since Republicans can get huge spending cuts by doing nothing and allowing the shutdown to continue and not extend the debt ceiling, then I don't see where Democrats think "not negotiating" is such a great plan. It didn't work with sequester and it won't work now.

Protip for glenn1: not all Republicans are as radicalized as you are. In this case we will eventually see a similar movement as we did with the fiscal cliff, relief funding, etc. Moderate Republicans will team up with the Democrats to pass their preferred measure. The only question is how much damage Republicans will do to the economy and to their own electoral prospects before that time.

The good news is that every day this goes on the Democrats become more likely to take back the House.

 

[boomerang]

<snip>

That's a lot of drama wasted on me. It rolled off like water on a duck's ass.

 

[fskimospy]

Interesting note: Sam Wang (basically another Nate Silver) says that current generic congressional ballot polls indicate that if the election were held today the Democrats would likely pick up about 30 seats, and with it the House.

It's important to note of course that the election is nowhere near today, but it does indicate the potential for damage to the GOP over this.

 

[Juddog]

Democrats are just butt-hurt that Republicans finally figure out a bigger hostage for extortion than them.

So now you're outright admitting that the Republicants and tea-hadists are taking the country hostage to get their way; at least you've finally owned up to the truth that the Conservatards are a destructive force in this country.

 

[diesbudt]

What possible alternative do the Democrats have but to refuse to cave in to blackmail? You think that it would be "smart" for Democrats to make concessions and therefore guarantee that this same strategy will be used by Republicans again and again and again and again to slowly achieve through blackmail what they could not achieve though elections, Supreme Court decisions, or the legislative process?

Why don't you inform us what an "intelligent" response to Republican tactics would be?

Counter offer.

It isn't that hard. The democrats are just sitting there saying no to every offer the republicans are giving. (Yes they are mostly absurd at this point).

I do not see the democrats however offering a deal, they are sitting back and just watching. They could easily counter offer back and forth until common ground is met. Instead both sides are wanting to play the all or nothing game, in which no one ever wins.

 

[fskimospy]

Counter offer.

It isn't that hard. The democrats are just sitting there saying no to every offer the republicans are giving. (Yes they are mostly absurd at this point).

I do not see the democrats however offering a deal, they are sitting back and just watching. They could easily counter offer back and forth until common ground is met. Instead both sides are wanting to play the all or nothing game, in which no one ever wins.

Can you describe what a potential counter-offer would look like?

 

[diesbudt]

Can you describe what a potential counter-offer would look like?

No idea. I am not as versed in what they are all fighting for specifically. But there is always room to counter offer. Just sitting on your hands and doing nothing but say "no" is just as bad as asking for way too much for nothing in return.

It would be one thing if the democrats would be offering something, to get the ball rolling. But last I checked they are not. They are literally waiting it out hoping the lunacy of the other side settles down.

 

[Juddog]

Can you describe what a potential counter-offer would look like?

The counter offer is:
* Bend over, take it up the butt with no lube and like it, or we destroy the country's economy and then blame the Dems on Faux News for failing to "negotiate".

The GOP negotiation is the equivalent of the Governor on the Walking Dead negotiating with Rick; basically a lose / lose.

 

[fskimospy]

No idea. I am not as versed in what they are all fighting for specifically. But there is always room to counter offer. Just sitting on your hands and doing nothing but say "no" is just as bad as asking for way too much for nothing in return.

It would be one thing if the democrats would be offering something, to get the ball rolling. But last I checked they are not. They are literally waiting it out hoping the lunacy of the other side settles down.

No seriously, there is no viable counter-offer. Republicans have demanded several things. First, they demanded the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. That should be self explanatory as a nonstarter. Then they demanded a year delay in one of its central tenets that would match up exactly with the next debt ceiling vote at which time they would repeat the demand. That should be self explanatory as a nonstarter as well.

Then we got to the fiscal demands. This is where the Republicans demanded cuts to programs and adamantly refused to accept even a single penny in additional taxes to help close the deficit instead.

I'm seriously at a loss as to what avenue for compromise or counter offers the Republicans have left open.

 

[nehalem256]

So now you're outright admitting that the Republicants and tea-hadists are taking the country hostage to get their way; at least you've finally owned up to the truth that the Conservatards are a destructive force in this country.

So I assume that you likewise concede that liberalism is an ideology based on using children as hostages so that women can do whatever they want :sneaky:

Seems to me like you are just butt-hurt that you just learned that extortion is all fun and games until the people you are extorting find the pictures of you masturbating to the dinosaur erotic-fiction.

Over the top weird sexual slur. You need time off to cool down.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Juddog]

So I assume that you likewise concede that liberalism is an ideology based on using children as hostages so that women can do whatever they want :sneaky:

Seems to me like you are just butt-hurt that you just learned that extortion is all fun and games until the people you are extorting find the pictures of you masturbating to the dinosaur erotic-fiction.

You just went full retard - never go full retard. Not sure when you started fantasizing about dinosaur porn but that's rather disturbing and you should really seek help.

 

[Spungo]

Fuck America!
-every politician ever

It seems like neither party fully understands how serious the situation is. What happens when you stop making credit card payments? Your credit rating is slashed and your interest rates go way up. Your last statement was 10% interest, and next statement is 20% interest. Defaulting on a loan causes interest rates to go way up. Printing money to pay the loan leads to inflation, and that too causes interest rates to go up, causing more money printing, causing more inflation, etc. Our whole country is in la la land. People say we spend too much, but they also say we shouldn't cut spending. Poll after poll shows that we can't cut the military, we can't shrink the empire, we can't cut medicare or medicaid, we can't cut social security, we can't cut food stamps, we can't cut education. We have the most expensive education, healthcare, and military in the entire world.

I'm worried about the situation. The stock and bond markets are both due for a crash because they've been in a bubble for the past few years. Defaulting on debt could be the straw that breaks the bubble's back. I've put much of my savings in a gold mining ETF for the time being. Gold is usually where people go when bonds and stocks are looking shaky.

 

[nehalem256]

You just went full retard - never go full retard. Not sure when you started fantasizing about dinosaur porn but that's rather disturbing and you should really seek help.

Just so we are clear its the Democrats that have the dino porn problem

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2345955

 

[Juddog]

Just so we are clear its the Democrats that have the dino porn problem

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2345955

Yet you seem to be the one obsessing about it. It's kind of like those super anti-gay republicants that constantly are bashing gays while secretly going into airport bathrooms seeking buttsecks with random gay dudes.