This is why the Democrats cannot - will not - "negotiate"

[sandorski]

The Republican Meltdown continues.

 

[glenn1]

You guys have to remember that for glenn it's about beating the other political sports team. In a recent thread he got mad about how people were being mean to Republicans so he said they should just shut down the House for the remainder of the term.

It's entirely emotional to him, he's so invested in it that winning is all that matters, no matter the consequences.

Yep, you're completely correct. It's entirely emotional.

And I completely agree with the OP, Obama should refuse to negotiate. T minus 10 days until 16% cuts to mandatory spending.

 

[glenn1]

This is what I'm talking about, you have a child's understanding of how this all works. Comparing the sequester First, ANY cuts to mandatory spending are in fact illegal. As in, every bit as illegal as spending in excess of the debt ceiling. Secondly, I have no idea where your article got the $30 billion a month number. Estimated federal deficits for FY2014 are considerably higher than $30 billion per month. There will be a sudden contraction of an annualized basis of 4 percentage points of GDP or so. There was only two months of the financial crisis in which GDP contracted faster, but only this time there's no government there to back things up.

Secondly, as that article mentions, federal revenues don't work like that. Some months the government takes in much more money than it puts out, other months much less. The US payments systems are simply not prepared to process payments in that way. There will be chaos with the payment system. (by the way, those saying we can pay the interest on our debt under a default scenario frequently overlook this fact. It may very well cause a default.)

I'm sure you don't find them objectionable now, but you will. As any parent knows, sometimes kids don't listen when you tell them the stove is hot; they have to find out for themselves. I sincerely hope that isn't the case with US conservatives, but if it is we might as well teach them a lesson now rather than later.

When it goes wrong I'm sure you'll still find a way to blame the evil liberals. Anything to avoid admitting fault or accepting blame.

Fine, I'm perfectly OK with the 33% cut to discretionary spending then. Either way, I'm good.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Yep, you're completely correct. It's entirely emotional.

And I completely agree with the OP, Obama should refuse to negotiate. T minus 10 days until 16% cuts to mandatory spending.

The sad reality is there will be no spending cuts coming close to 16%. You're literally too stupid to see this.

Here's what is going to happen if the GOP is dumb enough to send us into default. The financial sector will revolt instantly and withdraw funding/donations to GOP candidates that don't support raising the debt ceiling. This will have an instant effect and the GOP will turn on the Tea Party wing and Boehner will be forced to let a clean debt ceiling vote go through. There may be some concessions thrown in by Obama to let Boehner try and save face, but they won't come close to 16%.

If there is a default it will be incredibly short lived. I actually don't disagree with you on spending cuts needing to happen, I disagree with the tactics used to attempt to enact them. There are budget committees and appropriation committees whose job it is to handle these issues months before that didn't do their jobs. Congress needs to return to being functional again and that can only happen with the Tea Party eradicated. They believe their ends justify the means, even if it means destroying this country in the process.

 

[fskimospy]

Yep, you're completely correct. It's entirely emotional.

And I completely agree with the OP, Obama should refuse to negotiate. T minus 10 days until 16% cuts to mandatory spending.

Like I said, some kids aren't smart enough to believe you when you say the stove is hot. Hopefully the Republican Party is smart enough to spare you from having to be taught that lesson.

If not, you'll learn.

The one plus to this self inflicted wound will be that you might be seeing Speaker Pelosi again sooner than you thought. How fun for you!

 

[glenn1]

Like I said, some kids aren't smart enough to believe you when you say the stove is hot. Hopefully the Republican Party is smart enough to spare you from having to be taught that lesson.

If not, you'll learn.

The one plus to this self inflicted wound will be that you might be seeing Speaker Pelosi again sooner than you thought. How fun for you!

We'll see if your hoped-for Deus ex Machina arrives to make that happen.

We're now T-9 days and counting.

 

[Darwin333]

52% of Republicans think we should refuse to extend the debt ceiling. Lowered spending can and would be used to deal with no future borrowing. Democrats are hoping for the inside straight, that public outrage would force the GOP to back down. In the meanwhile, spending cuts would go into effect. The "public outrage" tactic didn't work with the sequester, and I daresay it wouldn't work with the debt ceiling either. Reducing the deficit and paying down the debt always gets support from the American public.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/07/politics/debt-ceiling-debate/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Paying down the debt has, and will, only get support from the American public until it actually happens. When and if it does I can guarantee it will no longer have the support of the public. The results, which are rather simple math, would not go over well with the public. The fact that paying down the debt must mathematically cause a recession (barring impossible circumstances in the real world) alone would cause half of them to reverse course. The rest would reverse course when whatever .gov benefit that they enjoy (funny how everyone agrees with and demands the ones they receive yet despise and demand the end to the others) get drastically cut.

Pull last years deficit spending out, recalculate GDP with the new numbers, and tell me exactly how that doesn't cause a recession?

BTW, its not that I disagree with the budget needing to be significantly cut and the deficit eventually brought close to zero (if not zero) but I know for a fact that the public who thinks they want that right now will quickly change their minds once they get it.

 

[fskimospy]

We'll see if your hoped-for Deus ex Machina arrives to make that happen.

We're now T-9 days and counting.

I like to think of it as "Deus ex Basic Understanding of Macroeconomics and Finance". That is a bit of a mouthful though.

 

[Attic]

Don't forget, it takes two to tango.

Both sides are playing heavy politics here, and that is the status quo.

Same old same old.

This whole thing is too stupid to not be a distraction from something else. Repubs are completely stupid for taking it this far and Dems are completely stupid for taking it this far.

Starting to hear through the woodwork that default is actually a legit concern from people far smarter than I. That is scary.

I still put chance of default at 11tybillion to 1 against.

 

[shira]

So, in your opinion, the answer is for neither side to actually negotiate? Winner take all?

The Republican's idea of "negotiation" is for the Democrats to make concessions in return for nothing. If you don't think that's the Republican strategy, then why don't you tell us what concessions the Republicans are offering in return for Democrat concessions?

And, no, ending the government shutdown is not a "concession." Similarly, not allowing the U.S. to default on the debt is not a "concession."

 

[cubby1223]

Does anyone even know why anyone is arguing anymore?

"You're childish!"

"No, you're childish!"

"Wait, we're both meaningless nobodys on a meaningless internet forum!"

"So... that means... you lose and I WIN!"



Nothing anyone has ever said on this forum has ever had even the slightest of impact on what our elected representatives do. If your goal is to better the government by writing on this forum, sorry but you are grossly wasting your time.

 

[shira]

Don't forget, it takes two to tango.

Both sides are playing heavy politics here, and that is the status quo.

Same old same old.

This whole thing is too stupid to not be a distraction from something else. Repubs are completely stupid for taking it this far and Dems are completely stupid for taking it this far.

Starting to hear through the woodwork that default is actually a legit concern from people far smarter than I. That is scary.

I still put chance of default at 11tybillion to 1 against.

What possible alternative do the Democrats have but to refuse to cave in to blackmail? You think that it would be "smart" for Democrats to make concessions and therefore guarantee that this same strategy will be used by Republicans again and again and again and again to slowly achieve through blackmail what they could not achieve though elections, Supreme Court decisions, or the legislative process?

Why don't you inform us what an "intelligent" response to Republican tactics would be?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

The Republicans are not serious about the debt and deficit until they acknowledge our military budget, which FAR outweighs everything in the budget sans entitlements and would be an infinitely easier pill for the public to swallow if it were cut.

 

[cubby1223]

What possible alternative do the Democrats have but to refuse to cave in to blackmail? You think that it would be "smart" for Democrats to make concessions and therefore guarantee that this same strategy will be used by Republicans again and again and again and again to slowly achieve through blackmail what they could not achieve though elections, Supreme Court decisions, or the legislative process?

Why don't you inform us what an "intelligent" response to Republican tactics would be?

You see it as blackmail, hostage taking, terrorism, whatever other word you want to call the situation.

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, "the other side" sees the situation as Democrats strong-arming their will on the citizens.

Why you want to jump to the next step in the discussion is the reason why you will never obtain a discussion, only comfort from like-minded individuals.

The government is going to do what the government is going to do because your view is not shared by an overwhelming majority of citizens.

 

[shira]

You see it as blackmail, hostage taking, terrorism, whatever other word you want to call the situation.

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, "the other side" sees the situation as Democrats strong-arming their will on the citizens.

Why you want to jump to the next step in the discussion is the reason why you will never obtain a discussion, only comfort from like-minded individuals.

The government is going to do what the government is going to do because your view is not shared by an overwhelming majority of citizens.

Since what the "overwhelming majority of citizens" seems to be your guide, why are you not appalled at Republican tactics when an "overwhelming majority of citizens" (74%) OPPOSED shutting down the government as a tactic to defund the ACA?

 

[compuwiz1]

The Republican Meltdown continues.

This is for people like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

 

[Bitek]

Does anyone even know why anyone is arguing anymore?

"You're childish!"

"No, you're childish!"

"Wait, we're both meaningless nobodys on a meaningless internet forum!"

"So... that means... you lose and I WIN!"



Nothing anyone has ever said on this forum has ever had even the slightest of impact on what our elected representatives do. If your goal is to better the government by writing on this forum, sorry but you are grossly wasting your time.

It took 10K posts to figure that out?

 

[stlc8tr]

Nothing anyone has ever said on this forum has ever had even the slightest of impact on what our elected representatives do. If your goal is to better the government by writing on this forum, sorry but you are grossly wasting your time.

I look at these threads for entertainment. It's like a train wreck.

Personally, I hope the Dems grow a spine and play this game of chicken to the very end. If the Republicans insist on going off the cliff, let's do a Thelma and Louise.

 

[sandorski]

This is for people like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

mmm, k

 

[Buxaroo]

Meanwhile, the U.S. Government purchases new airplanes from Italy for $50 million each... Only to have them go straight to the desert and be mothballed. So not only is the government wasting money on the C-27J they are still buying c-17 cargo planes that the Air Force d not want....yet the republicans are evil for trying to slow this insanity.

Please show me EVIDENCE that the GOP want to cut defense spending. Please, I am all ears. Please show me where the GOP have had ANY history of fiscal responsibility after Nixon. Please, show me. I will show you 8 years of Reagan and 8 years of Bush Jr of unmitigated spending. These are all facts which anyone with an IQ above 90 can see for themselves using this thing called google. GOP don't get to bitch about being "fiscally responsible" when they never were in the past 30 years. The only things GOP want to cut are anything NOT republican-related. Compare GOP's hatred of "food stamps" and anything to help poor people, and contrast that with what we spend on the military.

Do the math, it's not hard. And don't give me that double digit IQ argument that we need it for "protecting" ourselves. Ask the Imperial Japanese and Nazi Germany how we did after "not having a big pre-war army". We don't need 2100 M1 tanks. Not by a long shot. Please tell me how China is going to invade us, or that Russia wants its old empire back. It is not going to happen. But the bottom line, the BOTTOM line, is that we elected Obama. We re-elected him AFTER AHCA was passed AND after the last bullshit "debt ceiling" artificial crisis. And the FACT is that the GOP-controlled congress is TOTALLY gerrymandered. When the FACT that North Carolina voted 51% Democract and 49% Republican in the house, there are EIGHT GOP congressmen and FOUR democrat congressman. How is that the "will of the people"? Please do tell.

The GOP lost, they have lost the majority, but only through the gerrymandering of congress have they retained hostage-taking power to throttle the economy. GOP have no alternatives. The GOP have no ideas. The GOP are bankrupt and no longer valid. The tea party take over has completely destroyed all credibility with thinking people. You only have to look at every day's headlines to see how out of touch and totally retarded the tea party has made the GOP. You lost, and this is the last gasp of the GOP. They are well on their way to becoming the 21st centuries Whig party. 2014 is going to see a LOT people who voted for Obama finally come out and vote in the midterms. Welcome to the majority. Congress does NOT represent the majority, you have no evidence to claim otherwise. This is a democracy (sorry, arguing it's a republic is a distinction without a difference, republics are democracies). And congress is over riding the WILL OF THE PEOPLE. It's pure and simple.

 

[Lithium381]

and people wonder why "gun nuts" fight everything. . . . everything.. . tooth and nail. . . slow errosion of rights. same strategy from the lefts playbook. . . .

 

[cubby1223]

Since what the "overwhelming majority of citizens" seems to be your guide, why are you not appalled at Republican tactics when an "overwhelming majority of citizens" (74%) OPPOSED shutting down the government as a tactic to defund the ACA?

It's not "my guide", it is reality. Your viewpoint is not shared by enough people to control the government by.

Go ahead, argue with me all you want. It's never going to change anything that is done in the federal government.

What are you trying to prove to me? If you actually cared about having an impact on the direction of the federal government, then I gotta tell you, you have chosen the most ineffective path towards change. So what exactly are you trying to do with this thread? It's not convincing me of anything, and I don't believe it has changed anyone else's views. Does it make you feel better knowing that at least someone read your thoughts? Is that enough to let you sleep easier at night?


Why am I not appalled? (1) I don't like Obamacare, I don't believe it gets at the root problems in our health-care system, and very well may even make fixing the root problems even more difficult in years to come (Health care needs it's cost reduced and services increased, while the focus of Obamacare instead is getting everyone insured and diverting the costs onto another group of people). (2) People have an amazing ability to adapt to new situations, and life with partial functional federal government, as we have a week of data now to examine, has not thrown this country into chaos. (3) Watching liberals and progressives act as if they now need to build doomsday bunkers is kind of funny, really

Now go and respond again telling me about how evil the process is. And I'll reply by informing you I couldn't care less about your opinion.

Were you appalled by the process for which Obamacare was created and signed into law and the precedence it set? Of course not. Because you want what the process gave you. Someone could go on and on about how evil that was, and every time you'll respond that you don't give a fuck about anyone who didn't like that process.



I get it, I really do. Arguing the pros and cons of Obamacare truly is a matter of opinions. But switch over to the process, whether it be the creation, or the defunding, and now you are made to believe you have your no-lose argument for your side of Obamacare, you have your point of contention that no sane person could ever disagree with you on. You believe you have won on this point. Yet this is why we go in perpetual circles banging our heads against the wall, because you do not have your no-lose argument in favor of Obamacare. And you don't have to take my word for it, just watch what happens over the next couple weeks, government will do what it needs to to keep running, but the argument over Obamacare will not end.

 

[Siddhartha]

"Negotiating" in this situation means following the agenda of the wacko wing of the GOP in the House of Representatives.

What are the consequences if the Democrats did this?
1. They would lose their jobs in the next election. Most of the country and definitely their constituency do not want to overturn the New Deal et al, transfer the tax burden further onto the poor, working and middle classes, etc.
2. It would establish a precedence for people who want to overturn the US government and Constitution by using budgetary chaos.

 

[Matt1970]

The Constitution says all laws are decided by the President and the Senate...... Oh wait

 

[Matt1970]

One reason might be that the American people what Obamacare by 86%. Don't bother to ask me to prove it to you. It involves scientific reasoning. I will not attempt to negotiate facts with you so you can avoid having to feel bad about not being able to actually reason where your ego is involved.

Hey moron, weren't you trying to make fun of my grammar in the other post?