This is why Democrats/liberals will continue to lose

[J.Wilkins]

The constant internal sniping back-and-forth about minor policy details is the reason why "Thread Title".

Just read the posts. Very little difference in actual policy. Very little difference in ultimate goals. Just more 2016 primary replays, and "no, I'm the real liberal!" platitudes.

if you think the difference between being for or against the right to an individuals own bodily rights are platitudes and minor disagreements then I don't know what to tell you.

In reality it's the difference between a fascist and a liberal but apparently that difference is indistinguishable to you?

 

[greatnoob]

The winning strategy should be one that completely fucks over the Rustbelt and every single dumb conservative that has ever voted. Tell them everything that they want to hear and then do none of it. Republican policy is destructive and makes no economical sense but if low information voters want it to be so, lie to them to get their vote, then fuck them over or disregard their outrage* once in power.

* that is, if they're even capable of being informed on policies being passed. Most will just be outraged over skin colour of the PM, where they were born, unfounded conspiracy theories they've heard or an endless supply of other stupid things.

 

[J.Wilkins]

The winning strategy should be one that completely fucks over the Rustbelt and every single dumb conservative that has ever voted. Tell them everything that they want to hear and then do none of it. Republican policy is destructive and makes no economical sense but if low information voters want it to be so, lie to them to get their vote, then fuck them over or disregard their outrage* once in power.

* that is, if they're even capable of being informed on policies being passed. Most will just be outraged over skin colour of the PM, where they were born, unfounded conspiracy theories they've heard or an endless supply of other stupid things.

That would make the two sides perfectly equal and you the same as the Trumpists.

The future belongs to neither side but a middle route where people of sound mind can have fruitful discourse rather than trying to "get" the other side.

Neither sides extremists get that and because of that, they are pretty much the same, the ones you hate the most are the people that are exactly like you.

 

[nickqt]

if you think the difference between being for or against the right to an individuals own bodily rights are platitudes and minor disagreements then I don't know what to tell you.

In reality it's the difference between a fascist and a liberal but apparently that difference is indistinguishable to you?

Liberal A (Sanders Social Democrat), Liberal B (Clinton Liberal Democrat), and Liberal C (Cuomo Centrist Democrat), who share a desire to enact policies that are 93.5% similar and differ only in fine print, arguing with each other about who should have won the fucking 2016 Democratic primary, and about who is the better liberal, is why the Democratic party will continue to lose.

I don't care what ex-Republicans turned TeaParty turned Independent turned BothSidesDoIt™ (right-wing authoritarians) thinks about liberal policy, because they've been dead-fucking-wrong for their entire political lives, and will continue to be wrong.

The major problem with the Democratic party is that it is essentially the only sane, reasonable, BigTent party out there, and there are lots of people from different wings of the party trying to determine which way the party as a whole goes. This, of course, is a disaster in real time, as most of us can see.

In other words, the Democratic party needs to get back to actual liberal policy. The liberal policy that has been agreed upon for 50, 70, 100 years, for almost any issue, should become THE stance of the party as a whole. Labor rights. Personal freedoms/civil liberties. Higher taxes = modern infrastructure. Etc. If and when differences arise on what the END RESULT should look like, those differences should be carefully weighed out, measured, written down, and put ON HOLD until, you know, the Democratic party actually has any real fucking power to move even an inch towards the END RESULT. Until the Democratic party has the power to move an inch, it needs to stop internally sniping in regards to far-off policy details that aren't even vaguely possible AT THE MOMENT.

If you think that the Democratic party is able to kick out the Bernie progressives, Clinton liberals, or moderate centrists, and still win elections, you (third person you) are clearly delusional. As long as the people under the BigTent continue to rear back and attempt to push each other outside the tent BEFORE they've even gained power, then it's all fucking pointless in re: HOW the Democratic party is going to enact liberal policies to even begin to get to the point where the fine print differences in what those policies look like, even matter.

First, you get power. Then you change things. And not a second before.

The biggest mistake of the people in power is that they're looking so far ahead to when they and only they have control of the party, that they fail to see that they have to destroy the Republican party first. Once the modern Republican party is destroyed, THEN the Democratic party splits into a left-wing progressive faction that will be a political minority party (at least for awhile), and a majority centrist sane and reasonable faction that becomes the new US conservative party. And not a second before... because otherwise, right-wing authoritarians, who literally beg for a fascist authority to tell them to PURGE internal and external enemies, are able to have a fucking field day in the commotion. They thrive in commotion, because then, the only thing that matters is POWER, which they've conveniently gained while people who agree on 93.5% of policy are busy fighting internally about what some future scenario should look like.

 

[greatnoob]

That would make the two sides perfectly equal and you the same as the Trumpists.

The future belongs to neither side but a middle route where people of sound mind can have fruitful discourse rather than trying to "get" the other side.

Neither sides extremists get that and because of that, they are pretty much the same, the ones you hate the most are the people that are exactly like you.

I'm thinking of it logically. If the payoff of fucking over gullible idiots means you can get in power then it is a good strategy to take. If the payoff of NOT fucking over gullible idiots results in losing power to a party that was willing to and now has the power to pass destructive policies, then you need to re-evaluate your losing strategy.

 

[fskimospy]

This discussion is now over.

Lol. I'm totally shocked you can't back your bullshit up.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I'm thinking of it logically. If the payoff of fucking over gullible idiots means you can get in power then it is a good strategy to take. If the payoff of NOT fucking over gullible idiots results in losing power to a party that was willing to, then you need to re-evaluate your losing strategy.

Think about it this way instead, fuck them, both sides. A liberal view to a secular humanist society where everyones right is always respected per default and a future where you can earn your living no matter where you work.

You'd be doing the Trumpists their biggest favour and they would still hate you because admitting you are wrong is not in the creed of the wilfully ignorant people but fuck'em, you'd have a decent society.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Lol. I'm totally shocked you can't back your bullshit up.

No, I ended the discussion because you kept deflecting from your first post in your conversation with me and I don't see the point in having a conversation regarding a topic with someone who is hellbent on changing the topic.

The topic was regarding the Democrats giving up their last stand on liberalism and basic human rights and you whine about England?

Buh--- buh---- ENGLAND cries the retard.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Liberal A (Sanders Social Democrat), Liberal B (Clinton Liberal Democrat), and Liberal C (Cuomo Centrist Democrat), who share a desire to enact policies that are 93.5% similar and differ only in fine print, arguing with each other about who should have won the fucking 2016 Democratic primary, and about who is the better liberal, is why the Democratic party will continue to lose.

I don't care what ex-Republicans turned TeaParty turned Independent turned BothSidesDoIt™ (right-wing authoritarians) thinks about liberal policy, because they've been dead-fucking-wrong for their entire political lives, and will continue to be wrong.

The major problem with the Democratic party is that it is essentially the only sane, reasonable, BigTent party out there, and there are lots of people from different wings of the party trying to determine which way the party as a whole goes. This, of course, is a disaster in real time, as most of us can see.

In other words, the Democratic party needs to get back to actual liberal policy. The liberal policy that has been agreed upon for 50, 70, 100 years, for almost any issue, should become THE stance of the party as a whole. Labor rights. Personal freedoms/civil liberties. Higher taxes = modern infrastructure. Etc. If and when differences arise on what the END RESULT should look like, those differences should be carefully weighed out, measured, written down, and put ON HOLD until, you know, the Democratic party actually has any real fucking power to move even an inch towards the END RESULT. Until the Democratic party has the power to move an inch, it needs to stop internally sniping in regards to far-off policy details that aren't even vaguely possible AT THE MOMENT.

If you think that the Democratic party is able to kick out the Bernie progressives, Clinton liberals, or moderate centrists, and still win elections, you (third person you) are clearly delusional. As long as the people under the BigTent continue to rear back and attempt to push each other outside the tent BEFORE they've even gained power, then it's all fucking pointless in re: HOW the Democratic party is going to enact liberal policies to even begin to get to the point where the fine print differences in what those policies look like, even matter.

First, you get power. Then you change things. And not a second before.

The biggest mistake of the people in power is that they're looking so far ahead to when they and only they have control of the party, that they fail to see that they have to destroy the Republican party first. Once the modern Republican party is destroyed, THEN the Democratic party splits into a left-wing progressive faction that will be a political minority party (at least for awhile), and a majority centrist sane and reasonable faction that becomes the new US conservative party. And not a second before... because otherwise, right-wing authoritarians, who literally beg for a fascist authority to tell them to PURGE internal and external enemies, are able to have a fucking field day in the commotion. They thrive in commotion, because then, the only thing that matters is POWER, which they've conveniently gained while people who agree on 93.5% of policy are busy fighting internally about what some future scenario should look like.

And yet all that is completely unimportant if the actual policy allows for fascist ideals.

The number of words typed does not change that simple fact.

Hillary was the best the party ever produced but she is gone and now, apparently, they are going to try to go with Trump lite.

 

[Victorian Gray]

The constant internal sniping back-and-forth about minor policy details is the reason why "Thread Title".

Just read the posts. Very little difference in actual policy. Very little difference in ultimate goals. Just more 2016 primary replays, and "no, I'm the real liberal!" platitudes.

 

[greatnoob]

Think about it this way instead, fuck them, both sides. A liberal view to a secular humanist society where everyones right is always respected per default and a future where you can earn your living no matter where you work.

You'd be doing the Trumpists their biggest favour and they would still hate you because admitting you are wrong is not in the creed of the wilfully ignorant people but fuck'em, you'd have a decent society.

With the political climate in the US and their undemocratic voting system, I really don't think it's possible to be a centrist. The best case scenario is that Dems are in power and are able to pass rational policies. In order for Dems to be in power, you need to exploit the morons who voted for Trump. Think of it with game theory in mind because that is the rationale behind exploiting dumb voters -- they will fall for whatever BS is being thrown at them, if you don't exploit them, the others will.

 

[J.Wilkins]

With the political climate in the US and their undemocratic voting system, I really don't think it's possible to be a centrist. The best case scenario is that Dems are in power and are able to pass rational policies. In order for Dems to be in power, you need to exploit the morons who voted for Trump. Think of it with game theory in mind because that is the rationale behind exploiting dumb voters -- they will fall for whatever BS is being thrown at them, if you don't exploit them, the others will.

That is the point, the democrats lost to TRUMP, it's time for something new, you can't keep doing this dog and pony show forever, especially not as the democrats are now becoming Trump lite party.

You need something new that is NOT extreme, an actual liberal party.

But hey, you can always keep going as you have and for gods sake don't stop legal bribery that has led to the form or corporatist politicians you have now where lobbyists set the policy FOR the politicians on both sides, doing away with that would just be... bad for the people?

But .. yawn... democracy is haaaard... people fought for generations to give you this and you're pissing all over it.

 

[fskimospy]

No, I ended the discussion because you kept deflecting from your first post in your conversation with me and I don't see the point in having a conversation regarding a topic with someone who is hellbent on changing the topic.

The topic was regarding the Democrats giving up their last stand on liberalism and basic human rights and you whine about England?

Buh--- buh---- ENGLAND cries the retard.

So to be clear you are replying to me about how you ended the discussion. Lol.

You made a claim, back it up. Since there are apparently millions of links this should be easy.

 

[nickqt]

And yet all that is completely unimportant if the actual policy allows for fascist ideals.

The number of words typed does not change that simple fact.

Hillary was the best the party ever produced but she is gone and now, apparently, they are going to try to go with Trump lite.

It's not the actual policy that allows for fascist ideals. It's the Democratic infighting that prevents the Democrats from running as a united party with Democratic policies.

Not understanding that the Democratic party infighting about minute details that don't matter now is the reason that the fascists are able to grasp power and then wave it around like morons, does not change that simple fact.

Infighting during the 2016 primary, and after, is the reason why Clinton was gone, and the infighting about which fascists the Democratic party should try to court to win back power, currently d/b/a Democratic infighting, is why the Democratic party leaders may, perhaps, go with Trump lite...although just to be clear, even someone like Cuomo, who is at best a center-right Democrat, is sane and rational.

But this argument almost entirely misses the point.

The Democratic party itself has to unite, otherwise it isn't a real party. It needs to unite around common liberal policy proposals, RUN on those proposals, and win elective office in more than just the White House. It doesn't need to come up with really awesome power point slides, and it doesn't have to nominate Tom from MySpace to do so. What Sanders (and Strongman Trump) proved, is that the people who typically stay at home on election day, will come out and play politics if the person who is selling the political idea genuinely believes it (or pretends really well), and isn't afraid of just coming right the fuck out and saying it. And no, this isn't a replay of the 2016 primary.

We don't need Tom from MySpace, or Dwayne Johnson, or a dream ticket of Space Jesus/Zombie Washington to win elective office. We just have to be able to say WHAT we actually believe in, WHY it is good, HOW it helps all Americans, and then defend it without flinching or retreating backwards when pressed on it by the fascists in power and their well-trained right-wing authoritarian enablers. And if/when they lie about it, typically by labeling it with right-wing trigger words like COMMUNIST, SOCIALIST, UNAMERICAN, then you hit back by giving a simple narrative explanation about how it helps Everyone (no power point slides, a fucking narrative), and then ask why they're so afraid of everyone, all Americans, getting a fair deal, instead of it always accruing to the people who already have all the money and all the power. Every single time. Over and over and over.

Bitching that Sanders' was robbed, or that Clinton was robbed, misses the entire god damn point. The Democratic party is being pulled in multiple directions by people who think that they can totally own and operate the party to get everything they want. And they're absolutely wrong. It won't happen until the modern Republican party is destroyed so that a sane, rational and reasonable conservative party can take its place (the majority that already are within the Democratic party).

Sanders people don't see this and want it all, now. Clinton people are terrified of it and use their power to prevent it. And some of the Centrists think they can snag a few right-wing authoritarian enablers to do it, and are wrong.

Meanwhile, the killers, thieves and lawyers (h/t Mr. Waits) have gained power and are currently fucking up because, luckily, they're incompetent. The Democratic party could, if it were short and far sighted (read: objective and observant) make a point about the incompetence, win elections in multiple places, and work on destroying the idiots and morons so that at the very least, conservative voters are only left with sane and reasonable politicians of a new and improved US conservative party. (I believe it would be a majority within the Democratic party. Perhaps it would be a reformed Republican party with center/right Democrats carpetbagging the shit out of it...but who knows)

Unfortunately, the center and right wing of the Democratic party is the conservative party that America needs. We need to destroy the Republican party, and then allow the natural split of the Democratic party. And it's imperative that it happens before the fascists and their right-wing authoritarian enablers destroy everything. Under Strongman Trump, they aren't able to wield that torch. Under a more competent fascist, that torch will burn strong and bright.

 

[Victorian Gray]

And once more because it's worth it.

It's not the actual policy that allows for fascist ideals. It's the Democratic infighting that prevents the Democrats from running as a united party with Democratic policies.

Not understanding that the Democratic party infighting about minute details that don't matter now is the reason that the fascists are able to grasp power and then wave it around like morons, does not change that simple fact.

Infighting during the 2016 primary, and after, is the reason why Clinton was gone, and the infighting about which fascists the Democratic party should try to court to win back power, currently d/b/a Democratic infighting, is why the Democratic party leaders may, perhaps, go with Trump lite...although just to be clear, even someone like Cuomo, who is at best a center-right Democrat, is sane and rational.

But this argument almost entirely misses the point.

The Democratic party itself has to unite, otherwise it isn't a real party. It needs to unite around common liberal policy proposals, RUN on those proposals, and win elective office in more than just the White House. It doesn't need to come up with really awesome power point slides, and it doesn't have to nominate Tom from MySpace to do so. What Sanders (and Strongman Trump) proved, is that the people who typically stay at home on election day, will come out and play politics if the person who is selling the political idea genuinely believes it (or pretends really well), and isn't afraid of just coming right the fuck out and saying it. And no, this isn't a replay of the 2016 primary.

We don't need Tom from MySpace, or Dwayne Johnson, or a dream ticket of Space Jesus/Zombie Washington to win elective office. We just have to be able to say WHAT we actually believe in, WHY it is good, HOW it helps all Americans, and then defend it without flinching or retreating backwards when pressed on it by the fascists in power and their well-trained right-wing authoritarian enablers. And if/when they lie about it, typically by labeling it with right-wing trigger words like COMMUNIST, SOCIALIST, UNAMERICAN, then you hit back by giving a simple narrative explanation about how it helps Everyone (no power point slides, a fucking narrative), and then ask why they're so afraid of everyone, all Americans, getting a fair deal, instead of it always accruing to the people who already have all the money and all the power. Every single time. Over and over and over.

Bitching that Sanders' was robbed, or that Clinton was robbed, misses the entire god damn point. The Democratic party is being pulled in multiple directions by people who think that they can totally own and operate the party to get everything they want. And they're absolutely wrong. It won't happen until the modern Republican party is destroyed so that a sane, rational and reasonable conservative party can take its place (the majority that already are within the Democratic party).

Sanders people don't see this and want it all, now. Clinton people are terrified of it and use their power to prevent it. And some of the Centrists think they can snag a few right-wing authoritarian enablers to do it, and are wrong.

Meanwhile, the killers, thieves and lawyers (h/t Mr. Waits) have gained power and are currently fucking up because, luckily, they're incompetent. The Democratic party could, if it were short and far sighted (read: objective and observant) make a point about the incompetence, win elections in multiple places, and work on destroying the idiots and morons so that at the very least, conservative voters are only left with sane and reasonable politicians of a new and improved US conservative party. (I believe it would be a majority within the Democratic party. Perhaps it would be a reformed Republican party with center/right Democrats carpetbagging the shit out of it...but who knows)

Unfortunately, the center and right wing of the Democratic party is the conservative party that America needs. We need to destroy the Republican party, and then allow the natural split of the Democratic party. And it's imperative that it happens before the fascists and their right-wing authoritarian enablers destroy everything. Under Strongman Trump, they aren't able to wield that torch. Under a more competent fascist, that torch will burn strong and bright.

 

[Sonikku]

The Dems fail because they're basically the Starks of politics. They have the majority of voters on their side but get minority representation for those votes. Now is not the time to preach messages of hope. Now is the time to push messages of fear.

 

[ivwshane]

The Dems fail because they're basically the Starks of politics. They have the majority of voters on their side but get minority representation for those votes. Now is not the time to preach messages of hope. Now is the time to push messages of fear.

They aren't very good at it though. The closest they came was during the health care debate and the throwing the grandma off a cliff ad.

Honestly, I feel like the best strategy is to simply get out the vote, bring back acorn, bring back "rock the vote", and just keep hammering people till they come out and vote. They need to tap into millenials and get them to the polls.

 

[cytg111]

You need to put gerrymandering out of its misery, it is anti democratic and leaves you vulnerable to what just happended plus revolt, cause, people and freedom.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The Dems fail because they're basically the Starks of politics. They have the majority of voters on their side but get minority representation for those votes. Now is not the time to preach messages of hope. Now is the time to push messages of fear.

The Starks are fierce defenders of tradition and family, believe in strict adherence to the rule of law, worship the old Gods, support the death penalty, resent the irresponsible spending of the Iron Throne, are willing to start wars based on a binary perspective of good and evil, and will stubbornly defend their principles to the death. The Starks are what conservatives should be.

The Lannisters are what the GOP has become.

Democrats are more like House Tyrell.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm thinking of it logically. If the payoff of fucking over gullible idiots means you can get in power then it is a good strategy to take. If the payoff of NOT fucking over gullible idiots results in losing power to a party that was willing to and now has the power to pass destructive policies, then you need to re-evaluate your losing strategy.

Yes, as with religion, you are a fanatic. The ends always will justify the means for people who arrogantly believe theirs is the only truth. You have no faith, no faith in God, sure, who cares, but you have no faith in anything, even that there is a real good. You do not trust the truth, that the truth will always seek the light. You are self important and must help in by the use of darkness. Everything you fear has already happened. You will be safe if you wake up. Time to die on the cross as your load of crap is crucified. You are in the kingdom of heaven, sound asleep in your anger. The purpose of forgiveness for others is to forgive yourself. There is no war, no place to go, nothing to win. You will see if you can awaken.

 

[FIVR]

Yes, as with religion, you are a fanatic. The ends always will justify the means for people who arrogantly believe theirs is the only truth. You have no faith, no faith in God, sure, who cares, but you have no faith in anything, even that there is a real good. You do not trust the truth, that the truth will always seek the light. You are self important and must help in by the use of darkness. Everything you fear has already happened. You will be safe if you wake up. Time to die on the cross as your load of crap is crucified. You are in the kingdom of heaven, sound asleep in your anger. The purpose of forgiveness for others is to forgive yourself. There is no war, no place to go, nothing to win. You will see if you can awaken.

^Gullible idiot #1 here to defend gullible idiots everywhere. So gullible he voted for Trump, despite considering himself a "liberal".

 

[Moonbeam]

That is the point, the democrats lost to TRUMP, it's time for something new, you can't keep doing this dog and pony show forever, especially not as the democrats are now becoming Trump lite party.

You need something new that is NOT extreme, an actual liberal party.

But hey, you can always keep going as you have and for gods sake don't stop legal bribery that has led to the form or corporatist politicians you have now where lobbyists set the policy FOR the politicians on both sides, doing away with that would just be... bad for the people?

But .. yawn... democracy is haaaard... people fought for generations to give you this and you're pissing all over it.

I love your passion and point of view but you make a great mistake, in my opinion, with your contemptuous and arrogance with which you present it.

I find it very sad in fact that you can't discuss your issues with fskimo. You are so confident in your truth you dismiss him, but I bet he knows a lot more than you give him credit for. As much as I admire your passion, you ended a discussion I would have loved to have see played out. You left me hanging.

 

[Moonbeam]

^Gullible idiot #1 here to defend gullible idiots everywhere. So gullible he voted for Trump, despite considering himself a "liberal".

Listen you fucking moron. I voted Sanders in the primary and Clinton in the general, master of P & N search like you criticized others for not being able to do, and said so numerous times in the past. Sorry to be rude but I don't really appreciate some half assed nitwit telling me how I didn't vote. I actually know and you don't. You bring that same brain dead self confidence in your lack of mental acuity into many of your posts. You're a God Damned light weight air head. No?

 

[greatnoob]

Yes, as with religion, you are a fanatic. The ends always will justify the means for people who arrogantly believe theirs is the only truth. You have no faith, no faith in God, sure, who cares, but you have no faith in anything, even that there is a real good. You do not trust the truth, that the truth will always seek the light. You are self important and must help in by the use of darkness. Everything you fear has already happened. You will be safe if you wake up. Time to die on the cross as your load of crap is crucified. You are in the kingdom of heaven, sound asleep in your anger. The purpose of forgiveness for others is to forgive yourself. There is no war, no place to go, nothing to win. You will see if you can awaken.

Do you have a point that you're trying to make because it isn't clear to me what it is? Tit-for-tat is what I'm advocating and anybody that can think logically will know how effective it is. I'll repeat it again, just in case you couldn't understand:

Think of it with game theory in mind because that is the rationale behind exploiting dumb voters -- they will fall for whatever BS is being thrown at them, if you don't exploit them, the others will.

 

[Jhhnn]

Do you have a point that you're trying to make because it isn't clear to me what it is? Tit-for-tat is what I'm advocating and anybody that can think logically will know how effective it is. I'll repeat it again, just in case you couldn't understand:

Moonbeam's point is that the answer isn't more us vs them. Rust belt denizens aren't the enemy. They've born the brunt of Job Creators movin' on to greener pastures more than most. Their communities are crumbling around them due to forces beyond their control. Their leadership has exploited them ruthlessly for decades & they're fed up & confused, easy pickings for a great charlatan like Trump.