This is truly the end of America.

[rudder]

Originally posted by: techs

In Michigan there is no law that prevents a boss from firing people virtually at will
Which will be the first company to fire workers who vote the wrong way? Or register with the wrong party? Or donate or fail to donate to certain candidates?

So what your saying is that if I invest my own money and start my OWN business, its the governments job to tell me who I can hire and who I can fire? If I hire someone who looks good on paper and they turn out to be a dud and driving away business I can't tell them to hit the road?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: techs

In Michigan there is no law that prevents a boss from firing people virtually at will
Which will be the first company to fire workers who vote the wrong way? Or register with the wrong party? Or donate or fail to donate to certain candidates?

So what your saying is that if I invest my own money and start my OWN business, its the governments job to tell me who I can hire and who I can fire? If I hire someone who looks good on paper and they turn out to be a dud and driving away business I can't tell them to hit the road?

Incompetence has always been an acceptable reason to fire someone.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Kibbo86

Originally posted by: zendari


Not the same, try again.

Whats the difference between $.50 of bandwidth and $.50 of candy?

Computer resources can be organized so that there is no opportunity cost involved in using them. A candy bar can be eaten by it's owner, or sold. Thus, stealing it incurs a cost on the owner. Spare CPU cycles, or bandwidth which would be paid for and not used, can be a costless resource. So it is different.

That being said, installing a program without permission or knowledge on a computer that isn't yours for your own self interest is pretty disrespectful. But Dave's done his time. Cut him some slack.

Regarding your "discrimination against employers" analogy, I think that you would have to prove to me that the power dynamic between employer and employee is perfectly equal before I'll grant you that point.

The marginal cost of an employer replacing a worker is much lower than vice-versa. For lesser skilled workers, it costs a few thousand to hire and train each employee. That same employee may face forclosure, depression, loss of social status, divorce and skill loss from a period of unemployment. On top of a few thousand in lost wages.

It can be ruinous for an individual. It's an inconvenience for an organization.[/quote]

Wow, well said :thumbsup:

 

[PKing1977]

Explain to me how smoking on your own time breaks any law. Then I will listen to any argument about the right of an employer to govern your the personal lives of thier employees.

PKing

 

[Moonbeam]

It used to be for millions of years that man lived off the land. He had no job but that which came as a result of his or her place as a member of a group. He lived from each by his abilities to each as the situation demanded. We have created today a society built on the notion of work and bred ourselves into the teaming billions. And the robots are here. What is the aim and purpose of human existence. Is it and was it always to be a tool, an economic slave to a cultural system. Who creates systems in the past and why? We have government based on Divinity, like the Pharaoh, on the church, the king, the warlord, etc, one mafia after another. Now we live in a world created by those filled with the sickness of competition, that will be ripped to peaces by the hungry and unemployed.

What is the meaning of life and where can a person live it?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Kibbo86

Originally posted by: zendari


Not the same, try again.

Whats the difference between $.50 of bandwidth and $.50 of candy?

Computer resources can be organized so that there is no opportunity cost involved in using them. A candy bar can be eaten by it's owner, or sold. Thus, stealing it incurs a cost on the owner. Spare CPU cycles, or bandwidth which would be paid for and not used, can be a costless resource. So it is different.

That being said, installing a program without permission or knowledge on a computer that isn't yours for your own self interest is pretty disrespectful. But Dave's done his time. Cut him some slack.

Regarding your "discrimination against employers" analogy, I think that you would have to prove to me that the power dynamic between employer and employee is perfectly equal before I'll grant you that point.

The marginal cost of an employer replacing a worker is much lower than vice-versa. For lesser skilled workers, it costs a few thousand to hire and train each employee. That same employee may face forclosure, depression, loss of social status, divorce and skill loss from a period of unemployment. On top of a few thousand in lost wages.

It can be ruinous for an individual. It's an inconvenience for an organization.

Wow, well said :thumbsup:[/quote]

I agree - I've wanted to inject something like this into this thread and others, but never managed to write it clearly enough to be worth posting.

BTW what happened to the old kibbo?

 

[Zebo]

Good smoking is nasty. Can smell smokers long after they had thier smoke break which in and of itself is wasteful. I wish the military and all federal and government employment would do this too. We provide these guys with best health insurance so they can tear up thier body voluntarly?.. just does'nt make sense.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Good smoking is nasty. Can smell smokers long after they had thier smoke break which in and of itself is wasteful. I wish the military and all federal and government employment would do this too. We provide these guys with best health insurance so they can tear up thier body voluntarly?.. just does'nt make sense.

This isn't about smoking... it's about privacy, and control of private endeavors.

 

[Zebo]

Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

Someone didn't read the article... it's not about smoking at work, or evn during work hours (eg on lunchbreak).

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: PatboyX

Originally posted by: zendari
Employment (both hiring and firing) should be at will.

Especially with these smokers piling up health care bills in record amounts.

fine.
i hope people who eat fast food more than 2x a week get fired too.
too much health care to deal with.

Agreed. Included should be as followed.

People who don't work out.(lazyness leads to healh problems
People who work out too much(major risk of injury)
Eating sweets of any kind
Eating meat
Watching sports on TV
Driving a SUV(wastful on gas)
Driving a sub combat car(if you get hit with a SUV your medical bill will cost too much)

That said before you know it employers will start telling you where you can and can not take your vacation. Of course Vegas will be out of the question as will any trips out of the united states.

After that people will start getting fired for being republicans or democrates(or for being what your boss is not. Better hope your supervisor is not a true Nazi)

And you though a IRS anal probe was intrusive.


But I'm sure one of these days a company will go to far and get the crap sued out of them or some ACLU nut ball will just create more "protected" classes. Which I believe alcholoics and fat people are(protected that is).

 

[YoshiSato]

Does anyone know if nicotine is absobed via 2nd hand smoke?

 

[DasFox]

All I can say is why work for people, especially someone like that. In America freedom is to be your own boss. Me I work for no one but ME.

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: DasFox
All I can say is why work for people, especially someone like that. In America freedom is to be your own boss. Me I work for no one but ME.

Unskilled and uneducated.....maybe?


Personally, I wouldn't stay with the company. 15 months is more than enough time to find a new job, if your skilled and have the education.

Although I'm not sure what I'd answer to the question "reason for leaving"

Lucky for me, I don't work for a company like that though.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Zebo
Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

Someone didn't read the article... it's not about smoking at work, or evn during work hours (eg on lunchbreak).

You keep saying no one read the article, but what you really mean is, "no one has the same view that I do."

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: Cerb

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to eat red meat, shellfish or pork?

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to spend your weekend watching football and drinking beer?

What about if you like spending all your time off work working on cars?

Would a company have the right to fire you becuase your housing arrangement doesn't conform to their standards? IE a unmarried couple shacking up together? Or living in a part of town that does not suit the imange the company has in mind(either living in very expensive house/apt or something very very cheap)?

How about them telling you what kind of car you can drive? Is it right to be fired for driving the most busted @$$ car there is. What about if you drive a car more expenisve than your boss. Why should you be fired for that?


While I'll think no one will aruge that smoking isn't bad for you, this issue is what right does a company have to tell you want you can and can't do off company time?

Try replacing the smoking issue with some other activity that is banned and a fireable offence. The out cry will be much much more.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: YoshiSato

Originally posted by: Cerb

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to eat red meat, shellfish or pork?

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to spend your weekend watching football and drinking beer?

What about if you like spending all your time off work working on cars?

Would a company have the right to fire you becuase your housing arrangement doesn't conform to their standards? IE a unmarried couple shacking up together? Or living in a part of town that does not suit the imange the company has in mind(either living in very expensive house/apt or something very very cheap)?

How about them telling you what kind of car you can drive? Is it right to be fired for driving the most busted @$$ car there is. What about if you drive a car more expenisve than your boss. Why should you be fired for that?


While I'll think no one will aruge that smoking isn't bad for you, this issue is what right does a company have to tell you want you can and can't do off company time?

Try replacing the smoking issue with some other activity that is banned and a fireable offence. The out cry will be much much more.

A company has a right to fire you for ANY reason they want to. I don't care if they fire you because you have a pimple that won't go away, it's their business, they should be able to run it how they please.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: YoshiSato

Originally posted by: Cerb

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to eat red meat, shellfish or pork?

Yes.

Does a company have a right to fire you because you like to spend your weekend watching football and drinking beer?

No, because unlike the above (gas, smelling bad in general), I do not bring it with me. This would be classed with the bad beer.

What about if you like spending all your time off work working on cars?

That would depend on what my job is, I think. If there were any possible way at all it could be bad for myself or the company, then yes.

Would a company have the right to fire you because your housing arrangement doesn't conform to their standards? IE a unmarried couple shacking up together? Or living in a part of town that does not suit the image the company has in mind(either living in very expensive house/apt or something very very cheap)?

If it causes any problem for the company, then yes.

How about them telling you what kind of car you can drive? Is it right to be fired for driving the most busted @$$ car there is. What about if you drive a car more expensive than your boss. Why should you be fired for that?

More expensive, no. There may be quite a few jobs where a busted car might be bad.

While I'll think no one will argue that smoking isn't bad for you, this issue is what right does a company have to tell you want you can and can't do off company time?

Try replacing the smoking issue with some other activity that is banned and a fireable offense. The out cry will be much much more.

If given proper warning (15 months), or being told about it before being hired, then I don't see it as a problem.

Much like having to put up with racists, it's just part of having freedom. A few things that are minimal issues causing people to be fired is preferable to a company being forced to keep people on the job that do not properly live up to the company's standards.

Hence, what you removed in the quote:

...what you really mean is, "no one has the same view that I do."

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

But the ADA protects fat people and drunks(yes, I will not be politically correct here)

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Zebo
Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

Someone didn't read the article... it's not about smoking at work, or evn during work hours (eg on lunchbreak).

You keep saying no one read the article, but what you really mean is, "no one has the same view that I do."

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

This isn't about smoking at work.

In all your reading of the article, I'm glad you managed to pick this up.

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

This isn't about smoking at work.

In all your reading of the article, I'm glad you managed to pick this up.

Exactly, it's about an employer dictation of what you can do off company time.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Zebo
Huh? smoke lose your job sounds pretty much about smoking to me. What you do at work is not private and law only defines a narrow areas which you can't be fired for (race, creed, religion, sex) note smoking is'nt in there.

Someone didn't read the article... it's not about smoking at work, or evn during work hours (eg on lunchbreak).

You keep saying no one read the article, but what you really mean is, "no one has the same view that I do."

I read all three pages, and say most of it is BS (well, the beer and weight thing are crazy). A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing, and should have such a right. They had 15 months to quit smoking.

This isn't about smoking at work.

In all your reading of the article, I'm glad you managed to pick this up.

I'm glad you picked this up: A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing. As long as it is implemented fairly (2 weeks would not be fair for an addiction, 15 months definitely is), I see no problem. Is this fair to those employees? No. That does not mean it should not be legal.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

This isn't about smoking at work.

In all your reading of the article, I'm glad you managed to pick this up.

I'm glad you picked this up: A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing. As long as it is implemented fairly (2 weeks would not be fair for an addiction, 15 months definitely is), I see no problem. Is this fair to those employees? No. That does not mean it should not be legal.

The company you work for buys your time, it isn't indentured labour unless you signed a contract that says it is (military, pro athletes, some others).

This is ridiculous, you obviously think that a company's rights are much more important than citizens' rights. Congratulations, Mussolini would say you are one step closer to fascism.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

This isn't about smoking at work.

In all your reading of the article, I'm glad you managed to pick this up.

I'm glad you picked this up: A company you work for has every right to do this sort of thing. As long as it is implemented fairly (2 weeks would not be fair for an addiction, 15 months definitely is), I see no problem. Is this fair to those employees? No. That does not mean it should not be legal.

The company you work for buys your time, it isn't indentured labour unless you signed a contract that says it is (military, pro athletes, some others).

This is ridiculous, you obviously think that a company's rights are much more important than citizens' rights.

Congratulations, Mussolini would say you are one step closer to fascism.

BFT

The true agenda and allegiance to Corporate whoring by the Republicans is really showing now.

Will the Sheeple wake up to it or will they continue to acquiesce???

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

The company you work for buys your time, it isn't indentured labour unless you signed a contract that says it is (military, pro athletes, some others).

This is ridiculous, you obviously think that a company's rights are much more important than citizens' rights. Congratulations, Mussolini would say you are one step closer to fascism.

Didn't Hitler say something like: the ignorance of the masses makes for great dictators?