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This is one of the things that is wrong with OUR health system as it stands now....

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Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
The libs are big on the 'tax the people who cause the problem' when it comes to things like smoking, liquor, gas, etc.. Why not tax the people who don't have healthcare? Won't that encourage them to go get some? They say it will encourage people to stop smoking. Ok, thats not a very good example. I got a better idea, lets tax the people who say we should pay for everyone's healthcare! Surely you are willing to pay an extra 20% or so since you are so civilized and supportive of it?
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: Majes
People are correct when they state that healthcare is not a right...
Human life went on for thousands of years without healthcare at all, let alone healthcare for everyone...

Im still on the fence with this one though... I recognize that it is a noble goal to be able to provide healthcare for everyone. I value human life. Yet I realize that these people are at the same time a burden on the whole of society. In a fascist society there would be a quick cost/benefit analysis of the individual's production and they would either be cared for or exterminated. I dont think that is the answer, yet in communist society the rest of us are meant to pay for even the most terrible of hanger-ons...

I honestly think that this is why we have church's. This is why we have local communities. This is why we have charities. I don't want the government to be in charge of caring for people. That really shouldn't be their job, nor are they generally very good at it. Let the people care for the people.

But that's my 2 cents. Its a tough call either way.
Not really that tough of a call if you think about it in the proper perspective.. Health care shouldn't be cost prohibitive for so many people. For profit insurance is what has screwed up health costs and it needs to die.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This happens in Canada, of course. And in fact, more often, because since nobody there pays anything when they show up, not even a copay, the opportunities for abuse are more readily available. That is why there has been talkin the past of forcing users of the Candian health system to pay a small copay to help them put some skin in the game.
Thank you; sadly this knowledge will probably be just passed over.
You could go further. There could be multiple contracts to differentiate between different levels of risk. Either way, the insurer would come out OK because you will see how fast individuals tell you how much of a risk they are (through their choice) even though you won't hear it out of their mouths. Hence, you have some with deductables and some without. The low risk people will chose the contract with the deductable and the ones with high risk will chose the other.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Since when is health care a right?? Please, someone point me to the founding document stating this.
As you surely know, most civilized countries have a document stating something along these lines, but for me a law is not required - just as one is not required to tell me rape is wrong. If a dying child came to my door I would help it without hesitation and without asking for money. If you would not then you yourself do not deserve to live. Now, in a perfect world, I might extend this right only to women and children, but children need fathers too, and so they must be included. At the very least healthcare should be a right for the vast majority of people until they do something to prove they do not deserve that right.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Originally posted by: lsd
On the other side of the coin you've got to ask WTH a visit costs $1000.
I recently had an OJI where I cut my finger pretty badly. For two visits (they said coming back to the ER was okay) the total cost was $1600. Workers comp insurance paid for it so I didn't care. The total time I waited + treatment/sutures removal was less than 1 hour.
Okay, drop it to $100. You're still looking at $270K caused by NINE people. This is the only reason I'm against paying into a UHC. Some type of control has to be placed on it that prevents the few abusers from making me pay more and more every year to cover their sorry asses.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: Majes
Im still on the fence with this one though... I recognize that it is a noble goal to be able to provide healthcare for everyone. I value human life. Yet I realize that these people are at the same time a burden on the whole of society. In a fascist society there would be a quick cost/benefit analysis of the individual's production and they would either be cared for or exterminated. I dont think that is the answer, yet in communist society the rest of us are meant to pay for even the most terrible of hanger-ons...
I think that's a pretty tragic misunderstanding of communism - the whole idea was to support the workers, not the lazy bums, who would be just as likely to be culled in an authoritarian left wing govt as a right wing one.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,163
148
106
Eh, good point, but I dont believe it to be a "tragic" misunderstanding haha.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: winnar111
Just don't admit them....
This. Since when is health care a right?? Please, someone point me to the founding document stating this.
Sadly everyone just has the assumption they are owed health care regardless of who they are or their ability to pay.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
welp so much for that argument
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Majes
People are correct when they state that healthcare is not a right...
Human life went on for thousands of years without healthcare at all, let alone healthcare for everyone...
by that logic, slavery is alright, since we went on for thousands of years with slavery and did just fine.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The libs are big on the 'tax the people who cause the problem' when it comes to things like smoking, liquor, gas, etc.. Why not tax the people who don't have healthcare? Won't that encourage them to go get some? They say it will encourage people to stop smoking. Ok, thats not a very good example. I got a better idea, lets tax the people who say we should pay for everyone's healthcare! Surely you are willing to pay an extra 20% or so since you are so civilized and supportive of it?
i would love to see my taxes raised to have a decent uhc program. :thumbsup:
 

lsd

Golden Member
Sep 26, 2000
1,163
25
91
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: lsd
On the other side of the coin you've got to ask WTH a visit costs $1000.
I recently had an OJI where I cut my finger pretty badly. For two visits (they said coming back to the ER was okay) the total cost was $1600. Workers comp insurance paid for it so I didn't care. The total time I waited + treatment/sutures removal was less than 1 hour.
Okay, drop it to $100. You're still looking at $270K caused by NINE people. This is the only reason I'm against paying into a UHC. Some type of control has to be placed on it that prevents the few abusers from making me pay more and more every year to cover their sorry asses.
I agree with you, but what sort of ethical controls can you create?
These people should not be going to ER's in the first place, they should be sent to public clinics.
If a uhc program is implemented, I hope the premiums are usage based sort of like auto insurance. I can't tell you how much it irks me I pay the same premium as this "2 pack a day" coworker who has had one lung removed due to lung cancer.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Atheus
If a dying child came to my door I would help it without hesitation and without asking for money. If you would not then you yourself do not deserve to live.
That's all well and good to say in the abstract; I'm sure most of us would say we'd help a dying child on our doorstep. But how far are you willing to go to "help"? Have you gone to med school or otherwise received some sort of training to truly allow you to be of assistance to the dying? You can't cure cancer or some other serious medical problem just using good intentions alone.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,662
3,138
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Eight of the nine patients have drug abuse problems, seven were diagnosed with mental health issues and three were homeless. Five are women whose average age is 40, and four are men whose average age is 50, the report said, the Austin American-Statesman reported Wednesday.
Shame our mental health insitutions were gutted by Reagan. Homeless people with mental health issues should be institutionalized for their own good.
I understand what you are saying, but there is a fine line between institutionalizing people for ytheir own good and denying them their rights as human beings...it`s a slippery slope!
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,163
148
106
Good point Mike...
I would argue that its not really a valid comparison. Slavery, while it can certainly be broken down into different degrees, is not nearly as complex as providing health care to everyone. From a certain point of view you either provide it or you don't, but you don't have to be constantly freeing someone for the rest of their lives as opposed to constantly providing medication or treatment... This is particularly evident when you consider that some people have conditions with no cure. How would you even compare that?

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Majes
Good point Mike...
I would argue that its not really a valid comparison. Slavery, while it can certainly be broken down into different degrees, is not nearly as complex as providing health care to everyone. From a certain point of view you either provide it or you don't, but you don't have to be constantly freeing someone for the rest of their lives as opposed to constantly providing medication or treatment... This is particularly evident when you consider that some people have conditions with no cure. How would you even compare that?
voting rights
freedom of speech
property rights

your logic clearly fails, and besides, the right to continue to be alive is pretty obviously a right.


The argument that healthcare is not a right is really just covert eugenics. Some people don't 'deserve' to keep living because they are too sick, poor, etc.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,903
1,242
126
Surely we as a country can come with a better system for routine, non-critical emergency care that cost less than $1,000 a pop.
 

fisheerman

Senior member
Oct 25, 2006
733
0
0
What I would like to know is how UHC going to cure this problem?

It is like everyone thinks that UHC is some free system. Someone somewhere is always going to pay. Currently we are paying through higher premiums. If we have UHC everyone is going to pay as well as have the gubment as the middle man.

I would rather have a for profit company running things vs the gubment.

Either way we are going to pay..........

UHC isn't going to be cheap

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,877
827
126
Originally posted by: fisheerman
What I would like to know is how UHC going to cure this problem?

It is like everyone thinks that UHC is some free system. Someone somewhere is always going to pay. Currently we are paying through higher premiums. If we have UHC everyone is going to pay as well as have the gubment as the middle man.

I would rather have a for profit company running things vs the gubment.

Either way we are going to pay..........

UHC isn't going to be cheap
Thats exactly right. ne way or another those who cant afford healthcare still wont be able to, its just a matter of who pays. Abuses, high costs, etc wont go away.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,674
482
126
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: winnar111
Just don't admit them....
This. Since when is health care a right?? Please, someone point me to the founding document stating this.
Sadly everyone just has the assumption they are owed health care regardless of who they are or their ability to pay.
So if someone gets shot in a mugging we should just let them die because they lost their insurance card along with their wallet. Good idea.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,877
827
126
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: winnar111
Just don't admit them....
This. Since when is health care a right?? Please, someone point me to the founding document stating this.
Sadly everyone just has the assumption they are owed health care regardless of who they are or their ability to pay.
So if someone gets shot in a mugging we should just let them die because they lost their insurance card along with their wallet. Good idea.
Theres a big difference in preventive care and emergency care.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot

voting rights
freedom of speech
property rights

your logic clearly fails, and besides, the right to continue to be alive is pretty obviously a right.
The argument that healthcare is not a right is really just covert eugenics. Some people don't 'deserve' to keep living because they are too sick, poor, etc.
So, if I have a "right to continue to be alive", but my kidneys are failing, and you've got two good ones, do I have a RIGHT to one of yours because I'll need it to live? And if I have no money, and so all kidney transplant doctors refuse to perform the surgery, can I force (by threats of jail or whatever) a doctor to do it even if he/she won't get paid?
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
141
106
Originally posted by: fisheerman
What I would like to know is how UHC going to cure this problem?

It is like everyone thinks that UHC is some free system. Someone somewhere is always going to pay. Currently we are paying through higher premiums. If we have UHC everyone is going to pay as well as have the gubment as the middle man.

I would rather have a for profit company running things vs the gubment.

Either way we are going to pay..........

UHC isn't going to be cheap
My question to you: Would the increase in taxes to pay for UHC be less than or greater than the annual premium increase of private HC?
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Majes
Good point Mike...
I would argue that its not really a valid comparison. Slavery, while it can certainly be broken down into different degrees, is not nearly as complex as providing health care to everyone. From a certain point of view you either provide it or you don't, but you don't have to be constantly freeing someone for the rest of their lives as opposed to constantly providing medication or treatment... This is particularly evident when you consider that some people have conditions with no cure. How would you even compare that?
voting rights
freedom of speech
property rights

your logic clearly fails, and besides, the right to continue to be alive is pretty obviously a right.


The argument that healthcare is not a right is really just covert eugenics. Some people don't 'deserve' to keep living because they are too sick, poor, etc.
They can continue to be alive, with their chest pain, for as long a time as the Creator has given them.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
It's why universal healthcare would work better, there will always be genetically challenged individuals who need more care or there will be assholes who exploit the system and drive up costs. Why should the people of Texas have to pay more for them? Poor health affects EVERYONE, just as taxes do, it's not a coincidence.
I don't see how UHC (or in reality UHI) would help with this.

I'll betcha all these people are on Medicaid. After UHC passes, these people will still be on Mediciad.

If you have info that says the UHC (UHI) proposal is gonna do away with Medicaid, link me up please.

TIA

Fern
 

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