This is not a Jobless recovery...The Jobs were created in China.

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Dari
you people are overreacting. You're afraid of the future. You must accept reality and adapt to it.

If jobs are going overseas, it's only because cost is lower over there. New (kinds of) jobs are being created (here and there).

If you feel so strongly about jobs going to china or elsewhere, I need you to do two things: Admit that you could care less about poorer nations. And admit that sclerotic labor laws, not "greedy" corporations, are sending jobs elsewhere. Now, rev-up your hippie-mo-bile; get your banners in order, and march on Washington; advocating the recall of many labor laws, including, but not limited to, the minimum wage.

EDIT: Oh yea, and admit that you have no problem paying for the privilege of buying "Made in America" items, which usually carries a premium of 100%-1000%. The quality may not be better. But the politics certainly is. Think about it.

Like the current fiscal crises we have in California (more government/resources programs and less taxes via incredibly stupid referendums) and the White House (increased budget, less taxes), you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am in favor of Isolation. That is; isolate to the extent we can. Establish a buy US made products manufactured by US owned companies via tax credit or what ever vehicle will effect this. Bring back the manufacturing base that will create the trickle down employment needs of this nation. No need to admit anything... The claim to Isolation suggests the chips fall where they may elsewhere. It is here that strength is needed first.
No hippy mobile needed. No change in minimum wage laws needed. Just the fullest employment as possible. Sure the prices will rise a bit. Well, lets examine this closer. The corporate folks are trying any method to maintain profitability and in this market saving cost by engaging overseas entities to do the work saves money. But, does it hit the market price? Not hardly. Increase the employment increases the demand which increases the supply to meet that demand. Now look at the cost structure. You have higher direct labor $ and higher labor in the overhead for service. (elements shopped overseas) but, you amortize the total overhead over an increase volume and unit cost goes down. You have an unfavorable labor $ variance offset by higher productivity (according to everyone) which almost nets out. You also have an increase in revenue which all together puts more $ on the bottom (EBIT) and everyone is happy as a clam.
So Dari, if you advocate continued shopping of jobs overseas because of minimum wage... when hardly anyone will work and survive at $6.75 an hour well... it makes no cents to me.. Is the current engineer worth 7$ an hour? Only McDonald's and Safeway stores baggers make $6.75 an hour.
Now if you'd pay Bush and his economic wizards their due it would be to shop their jobs to ... I don't know... maybe to the Islanders of Mauritius.

 

[LunarRay]

In the computer hardware industry what do you think the elasticity of demand is? At $1000 how many computers would be sold in the US and how many at $1500 and at $2000... all the same components.
How many add on products like video cards... etc..
Now consider if they were all made in the USA. How many jobs would that create? Factor in all the Trickle down up and sideways jobs.
Think the cost of software might be affected? Remember we have lots more folks employed and more folks employed in jobs they are trained for... (moving up from baggers to engineers)

Apply this to all the segments of manufacturing...

This is the economic stimuli we need.. heck just the mention of a change in policy will cause millions to run out incur debt and purchase on the expectation of rising prices which ought not be too bad.. Oh and that budget deficit thing... not to worry the tax revenue would triple..

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
What really pisses me about the 'Corporate America' is that they don't care at all about America,
the Corporate side is using the government which they bought as a shill to maximize proffits for
their greedy executives, and to hell with common folks.
It's almost the same attitude and mentality that triggered the French Revolution
The peasants have no bread and are getting restless and rebellious -
Response - "Let them eat cake"

Yah, the bourgeoisie and nobility are really causing a problem with this feudalism aren't they? Not to mention the country only allowing one religion to be practiced. And I'm really tired of these nobles and kings getting their fortune just because they own a bunch of land and were "decreed by god" or some nonsense

The de-education of all these mindless Pro-Bush sheep is appalling.

Every day I work with what I consider 'Degreed Illiterates', college graduates
between 25 and 35 that don't have the knowledge or intelligence that it took
to graduate from high school in the 60's, yet they are so busy knowing everything
that they don't have time to learn or understand anything.

They never finish a task or job assignment, and if they can't find a fix to the problem
by looking it up on the internet, they simply say 'It can't be fixed", incapable of reasoning
and studying a part or product and knowning how to apply thought to the soultion.

It sure is going quickly though isn't it, why for everyone that has been educated for anywhere from 12 to 20 years has virtually forgotten everything in just a short 3 years!

Yup, I can't believe how badly the current administration reversed all those prior years. Fascinating isn't it? Is it mind control? Is it something in the water? Turned an entire generation into slackers in Three Short Years!!! Amazing!! All your generations hard work...down the drain

 

[LunarRay]

Quote:
The de-education of all these mindless Pro-Bush sheep is appalling.

Every day I work with what I consider 'Degreed Illiterates', college graduates
between 25 and 35 that don't have the knowledge or intelligence that it took
to graduate from high school in the 60's, yet they are so busy knowing everything
that they don't have time to learn or understand anything.

They never finish a task or job assignment, and if they can't find a fix to the problem
by looking it up on the internet, they simply say 'It can't be fixed", incapable of reasoning
and studying a part or product and knowning how to apply thought to the soultion.

***********

There is soooooo much more to know that folks need being specialists and are trained as generalists. The companies of larger scopes allow for the specialist whereas the smaller companies need generalists with the same expertise as the specialist. This is true in the Business and Engineering/Construction disiplines anyhow... to my experience.

 

[Zebo]

neil

Originally posted by: Dari
you people are overreacting. You're afraid of the future. You must accept reality and adapt to it.

If jobs are going overseas, it's only because cost is lower over there. New (kinds of) jobs are being created (here and there).

If you feel so strongly about jobs going to china or elsewhere, I need you to do two things: Admit that you could care less about poorer nations. And admit that sclerotic labor laws, not "greedy" corporations, are sending jobs elsewhere. Now, rev-up your hippie-mo-bile; get your banners in order, and march on Washington; advocating the recall of many labor laws, including, but not limited to, the minimum wage.

EDIT: Oh yea, and admit that you have no problem paying for the privilege of buying "Made in America" items, which usually carries a premium of 100%-1000%. The quality may not be better. But the politics certainly is. Think about it.

Like the current fiscal crises we have in California (more government/resources programs and less taxes via incredibly stupid referendums) and the White House (increased budget, less taxes), you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The founders built this nation from a bunch of poor farmers to the greatest manufactureing nation evar, by imposing 100% tarriffs... Mind you we did'nt have income tax nor need it because of the high tarriffs... Now, as jobs leave, so does our tax base goes along with manufacturing and R&D with it, I don't care much as I'll be retired in 5-10 years but I've seen entire industry disappear but we should, for the future.. Many free trade folks are comming around now that the results are in.



Text

 

[Moonbeam]

It will take 'heads' a hundred years to see what is is obvious to the 'heart'.

 

[Dari]

you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

 

[Moonbeam]

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.
-------------------------------------
You're no match for this man. He has a masters degree in...........science.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Dari
you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

Hope you have enough calamine lotion for the itch.. you are not an Eli...

We live here in the US and can Isolate to our hearts content.. When you are the largest market you can do pretty much what you please.
It seems to me with fullest possible employment in the US we still could not supply the entire demand that full employment would create. This then means simply we go segment by segment until we achieve our objectives. We do this in an orderly manner letting the other countries develop their own demand and supply with in their own arena.
BTW lots of folks have degrees around here and failing that they have degrees from UCS. We are in need of self dependence and not dependence on international whims..

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.
-------------------------------------
You're no match for this man. He has a masters degree in...........science.

I'll have to start referring to you as Dr. Moonbeam but, alas not an Ivy Leaguer

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Dari
you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

I don't care where your degree is from -- you live in a dream world. "Free Trade" is the mantra of foreign nations ripping our borders open to steal our riches. Or why else are they allowed to have trade protections and we are not? Free trade is socialism on an international scale, the forced re-distribution of wealth among the nations, with the US as the only rich man at the table.

But I don't have to tell you this. You'll find out soon enough because you're right about one thing -- we can no longer stop this pillage of America now that it has begun. Our own fellow citizens have sold us out to the eager barbarians. So you'll see soon enough the double-digit interest rates, the skyrocketing national debt, gas prices of $5+ bucks/gallon, the closed factories, and the double-digit unemployment rates. It will happen, but not too soon, as our foreign masters expect at least some return on their investment before they force us into bankruptcy.

Anyway, thanks a lot, asshole...

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Dari
you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

I don't care where your degree is from -- you live in a dream world. "Free Trade" is the mantra of foreign nations ripping our borders open to steal our riches. Or why else are they allowed to have trade protections and we are not? Free trade is socialism on an international scale, the forced re-distribution of wealth among the nations, with the US as the only rich man at the table.

But I don't have to tell you this. You'll find out soon enough because you're right about one thing -- we can no longer stop this pillage of America now that it has begun. Our own fellow citizens have sold us out to the eager barbarians. So you'll see soon enough the double-digit interest rates, the skyrocketing national debt, gas prices of $5+ bucks/gallon, the closed factories, and the double-digit unemployment rates. It will happen, but not too soon, as our foreign masters expect at least some return on their investment before they force us into bankruptcy.

Anyway, thanks a lot, asshole...

[/i]


Someone give this clown a vacation so he can go to school. You can use your Jeffersonian arguments (he and I share an Alma Mater, too) against trade all you want, but do your homework first, kid...do a little reading on the effects of his infamous embargo. When you are done, read John Stuart Mill and see why trade is necessary between countries. When you have spent a few years studying the topic, perhaps I will listen to your pointless rants where you recite the mantra of MTV's political punditry.

[Edit] Oh, by the way, the sky is falling, Chicken Little...run to the WTO and protest. And when you are finished, pull your damn pants up and wipe your nose, junior.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Someone give this clown a vacation so he can go to school. You can use your Jeffersonian arguments (he and I share an Alma Mater, too) against trade all you want, but do your homework first, kid...do a little reading on the effects of his infamous embargo. When you are done, read John Stuart Mill and see why trade is necessary between countries. When you have spent a few years studying the topic, perhaps I will listen to your pointless rants where you recite the mantra of MTV's political punditry.

[Edit] Oh, by the way, the sky is falling, Chicken Little...run to the WTO and protest. And when you are finished, pull your damn pants up and wipe your nose, junior.

Galt, why are you nothing like your namesake?

Your typical neocon style of argument is boring to say the least. I did not argue against trade, not with one word. I argued against the current imbalance of trade -- the "free trade" that really costs the US $40 billion every month. The "free trade" where US products are forced to compete inside the US with subsidized and market dumped foreign products.
You would think that someone who pretends to love the US as much as you do would realize the problem, but your fanboi-ism (and perhaps your greed?) seems to blind you. Running massive budget and trade deficits creates debt, and debt requires servicing. Most of the buyers of this debt, sold in the form of bonds, are foreign investors -- usually those same ones who coincidentally have a trade surplus on their side and need to invest those monies somewhere.
There is nothing wrong with trade itself and I never said so. I myself own an import car, for example. Perhaps I could enlighten you (and the rest of your neocon ilk which gives us real conservatives a bad name) to the logical fallacy of the straw man? What is wrong is giving America away piece by piece, dollar by dollar, and placing the control of that auction in the hands of foreign powers.

 

[Moonbeam]

I see all the rugged individualists are headed for a surprising death in the ring with an opponent they never suspected they'd meet. In the world of dog piles top dogs love piles. The the top dog is only king of a pile of sh!t. When human potential is crushed in childhood and poured into a tiny track it eats its way along that track like a ravaging disease. The track, the disease into which we've been molded is the diseased need to compete. Only love can break your heart. Only love can mend it again.

It's funny that somebody should mention John Stuart Mill. When, at a young age, I was enrolled at the Poison Ivy University of Life beginning my PhD thesis of the Transcendence of Suffering, I read this fellow Mills hoping, due to his reputation, that he might know something. Alas though, he like all the rest, knew nothing at all. All his ideas were built on sand. Like everyone else I'd met he rested on unexamined assumptions. In him I found empty longing, but no food for the soul. Truth is hard to come by in the West. Here we just play with our mechanical toys. In the East, I heard, there is a wooden horse, a discarded children's toy, that will take you to your heart's desire. You do know what your heart desires, do you not?

Poor poor aggressive men. What a sad day it will be when you discover that the monster you've built is the monster you must tear down.

Get your practice on my empty shell.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Dari
you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

Heh, that explained your pure capitalist, elitist view of the world. Sure you don't want protectionist/socialist because your group is the ones benefit the most from those views. But go to the real world where most of Americans live, people are suffering, losing jobs, unable to provide for the family because greedy blood-sucker like you trying to justify amassing fortune for the few in the name of economics.

What economics failed to justify is the social cost of free trade in the extreme. Everything has to have a balance, going to the free trade in extreme may benefit a country in terms of economic, but cost the society a much greater deal. Gap between the have and have not becomes greater, which causes social instability. People stop having certain skills because those skills are more efficient in other country, which increases the country's reliance on other country.

Yes the world is more globalize today, but we still have not eliminated national boundaries. There are still wars and conflicts between countries. You can argue that as long as you optimize your resources, you can always buy what you don't produce from the cheapest source, but real world may not work that way. That's why we still keep oil reserves for ourselves and the ability to drill, even we can buy oil that much cheaper from the ME. Economics is not everything, you may think it is, but it?s not

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

You are right, Moonie. You know everything; Mill knows nothing. The world should accept your theories and disregard Mill's and the myriad of economists who support his premises.

Mill, in short:

It is commerce which is rapidly rendering war obsolete, by strengthening and multiplying the personal interests which are in natural opposition to it. And it may be said without exaggeration that the great extent and rapid increase of international trade, in being the principal guarantee of the peace of the world, is the great permanent security for the uninterrupted progress of the ideas, the institutions, and the character of the human race.

You see, Moonie, when nation-states are dependent upon one another for some commodity, or to facilitate increased commerce, the propensity to wage war decreases, all else constant. Trade is, as Mill put it, what separates us from barbarism. Trade creates a mutual dependency of nation-states who are dependant on resources they were not otherwise blessed with. This increases cooperation. This reduces aggression. If you think about all the proverbial 'hot spots' in the world today, think about the markets, or the lack thereof, established in those countries. While you would probably argue that North Korea is at peace with the world (and thus the U.S.), I hold contrarian views; North Korea is not dependant on the outside world for commerce and thus a problem area. The same holds true for nearly every nation in the world who practices a centrally-controlled, planned economy that limits trade and dependancy with the outside world....I won't even give you a class on comparative advantage, as you know Smith, Ricardo, Keynes, Friedman, et al are all wrong.

I guess the 16-20 somethings you like to play with, the same kids who like to travel to WTO meetings and throw rocks, know more about the intricacies of the world than hundreds of years of economic through.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Dari is arguing for equal poverty.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It will take 'heads' a hundred years to see what is is obvious to the 'heart'.

I guess it will take heads a hundred years to understand your post too, Moonbeam.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Believe me, we understand, Mooner.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Believe me, we understand, Mooner.

Well at least you understand you are not one but many.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Dari
you guys can preach the socialist/protectionist mantra all you want with your tariffs, credits, and all. But we live in a globalized economy and there is no turning back. That means no protectionist policy for anybody. Globalization is in full force and anyone that gets in its way will be severly dealt with. Swallow the bittersweet pill of the new reality.

I'm absolutely tired of explaining for the thousandth time why this is good for everyone. No matter how far man has advanced, some people salivate at turning back the clock. If I call you guys ignorant assholes, I'll be accused of ad hominem (sic?). But I won't. I'm just going to tell you to STFU because no one wants your protectionist ideals. Not the corporations, not the consumer, and definitely not the laborer. You can preach your fantasies until you're either blue in the face or the Grim Reaper pays you a visit. I certainly won't be a party to this charade anymore.

EDIT: I have an Economics degree from an Ivy League school.

Were do you work? Mergers and Aquisitions for JP Morgan? You are seriously biased and I hear grade inflation is rapent these days. (no child left behind right)

Not the Laboroer HUH... Well those US Steel guys were pretty happy when Bush instituted 35% tarrifs on foreign steel and the eruopeans were bitching up a storm on all the money they will loose Best policy ever from bush.

Edit.. and nevermind explaining or rebuting the problems with the articles above, just like you did'nt with Nobel Prize winner world bank head Joseph Stiglitz Text critque, just keep repeating your unsupported BS, someone my buy it...You did after all.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Though a staunch Republican (and an economist), I would like to go on the record stating that Bush's stance on steel and implementing the terrifs defy economic logic, in my opinion...one of the few points we disagree on, but have agreed to disagree

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Though a staunch Republican (and an economist), I would like to go on the record stating that Bush's stance on steel and implementing the terrifs defy economic logic, in my opinion...one of the few points we disagree on, but have agreed to disagree

Explain? Seems logical to me to limit the influx of goods to the most powerful market on the planet this way imports can't compete and we hire more USians at a better rate keeping more wealth here making voter happy so they vote for Bush.

 

[Moonbeam]

Dang, I forgot Mr.Mill:

"Mill, in short:

It is commerce which is rapidly rendering war obsolete, by strengthening and multiplying the personal interests which are in natural opposition to it. (We see how obsolete war has become since Mill's time. As a prediction of the future, his theory was a joke. There is an assumption that there are interests that are personal and that we know what they are. There is an assumption that those interests are in opposition to it and that they are natural. This is the greatest fallacy, that we know what natural is.) And it may be said without exaggeration (Who says so. I'm a skeptic,) that the great extent and rapid increase of international trade, in being the principal guarantee of the peace of the world, is the great permanent security for the uninterrupted progress of the ideas, the institutions, and the character of the human race. (Again we see how wonderfully the world acquitted itself in the near two centuries since his birth. Mill is a rationalist cut off from insight into his own heart and an intuitive grasp of reality. He is dreaming and the world itself fell on its ass.)

You see, Moonie, when nation-states are dependent upon one another for some commodity, (You mean like us on Iraqi oil) or to facilitate increased commerce, (You mean to get those Iraqi pipelines flowing) the propensity to wage war decreases, all else constant. Trade is, as Mill put it, what separates us from barbarism. (Trade in flint is millions of years old.) Trade creates a mutual dependency of nation-states who are dependent on resources they were not otherwise blessed with. This increases cooperation. This reduces aggression. (Only in primitive pre- sick man) If you think about all the proverbial 'hot spots' in the world today, think about the markets, or the lack thereof, established in those countries. While you would probably argue that North Korea is at peace with the world (and thus the U.S.), I hold contrarian views; (I always like it when somebody finds the objections to their own argument) North Korea is not dependent on the outside world for commerce and thus a problem area. (I guess that's why we embargo countries so we can turn them into warrior nations that hate us) The same holds true for nearly every nation in the world who practices a centrally-controlled, planned economy that limits trade and dependency with the outside world...(Yeah, I remember how the founding fathers liked buying their guns in England)I won't even give you a class on comparative advantage, as you know Smith, Ricardo, Keynes, Friedman, et al are all wrong. (Yeah, that's for sure. Your world is upside down. If you like it, it's nuts. But I an willing to concede those guys lived with a lot of comparative advantages nice and high on the hog.)

I guess the 16-20 somethings you like to play with, the same kids who like to travel to WTO meetings and throw rocks, know more about the intricacies of the world than hundreds of years of economic through. Yup, us lovers know it all.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Dang, I forgot Mr.Mill:

"Mill, in short:

It is commerce which is rapidly rendering war obsolete, by strengthening and multiplying the personal interests which are in natural opposition to it. (We see how obsolete war has become since Mill's time. As a prediction of the future, his theory was a joke. There is an assumption that there are interests that are personal and that we know what they are. There is an assumption that those interests are in opposition to it and that they are natural. This is the greatest fallacy, that we know what natural is.) And it may be said without exaggeration (Who says so. I'm a skeptic,) that the great extent and rapid increase of international trade, in being the principal guarantee of the peace of the world, is the great permanent security for the uninterrupted progress of the ideas, the institutions, and the character of the human race. (Again we see how wonderfully the world acquitted itself in the near two centuries since his birth. Mill is a rationalist cut off from insight into his own heart and an intuitive grasp of reality. He is dreaming and the world itself fell on its ass.)

You see, Moonie, when nation-states are dependent upon one another for some commodity, (You mean like us on Iraqi oil) or to facilitate increased commerce, (You mean to get those Iraqi pipelines flowing) the propensity to wage war decreases, all else constant. Trade is, as Mill put it, what separates us from barbarism. (Trade in flint is millions of years old.) Trade creates a mutual dependency of nation-states who are dependent on resources they were not otherwise blessed with. This increases cooperation. This reduces aggression. (Only in primitive pre- sick man) If you think about all the proverbial 'hot spots' in the world today, think about the markets, or the lack thereof, established in those countries. While you would probably argue that North Korea is at peace with the world (and thus the U.S.), I hold contrarian views; (I always like it when somebody finds the objections to their own argument) North Korea is not dependent on the outside world for commerce and thus a problem area. (I guess that's why we embargo countries so we can turn them into warrior nations that hate us) The same holds true for nearly every nation in the world who practices a centrally-controlled, planned economy that limits trade and dependency with the outside world...(Yeah, I remember how the founding fathers liked buying their guns in England)I won't even give you a class on comparative advantage, as you know Smith, Ricardo, Keynes, Friedman, et al are all wrong. (Yeah, that's for sure. Your world is upside down. If you like it, it's nuts. But I an willing to concede those guys lived with a lot of comparative advantages nice and high on the hog.)

I guess the 16-20 somethings you like to play with, the same kids who like to travel to WTO meetings and throw rocks, know more about the intricacies of the world than hundreds of years of economic through. Yup, us lovers know it all.

[...q...]