This is my repsonse to all gun advocates

[Windogg]

Hey Classy,

How many people do you know shot people for the hell of it? I don't known any but I personally know 3 people that have with saved their lives or the lives of others because they intervened with their firearms. Not one shot was every fired. Just implying they they were not going to be an easy victim was enough to make the criminals turn tail and run. Can statistics lie? Hell yea. There is a statistic for murders and splashy news about school shootings but why not a statistic on crimes prevented?

Windogg

 

[Cable God]

<< Windogg, >>





<< I'm alive today because of a legal firearm so I piss on your post with great gusto >>



I agree. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

The right to keep and bear arms is a freedom our forefathers fought and died for. The only way they will take mine is by prying them from my cold dead hands.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

To continue that saying...

&quot;If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
If only outlaws have guns, then I will be an outlaw.&quot;

I have heard too many people say this to list.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Edit: Double post

 

[DaBoneHead]

There's two people right there Demon

 

[BoberFett]

classy

If criminals aren't using guns, then who is? If someone kills another human being with a gun, doesn't that make them a criminal? Let's see some statistics on accidental gun deaths. I bet the numbers are barely worth mentioning, but please, prove me wrong.

 

[stonerdave]

Personally, I think a big problem is the manufacturing of cheap handguns less than $150, some made in the US, others imported from Asia. At least companies like Colt and Smith &amp; Wesson are finalizing designs of a smart gun. The handgun owner is given a special chip embedded in a ring which emits a unique signal to his handgun, thereby activating it (an electronic safety). This would prevent others from using it (one of the leading cause of deaths for cops, btw).

But would a gun ban really work? I mean the supply is so overwhelming, it would take almost a miracle to stop the flood at this point. The supply is arguably more difficult for the feds to handle than controlled substances, which are sold to the end-user and usually consumed (guns don't always stop working). And we all know how well the &quot;war on drugs&quot; campaign is working in this country, which middle-schoolers across America will confidently brag about.

I'd agree something needs to be done, quickly. Whether it should be cracking down on the sheer number of guns being made or waiting periods is tough to call. Also incentive programs to get rid of guns that are found/abandoned/old.

 

[Dameon]

<< And you know and I know for your 300+, I could could 3000+. Enough said. >>



Classy, why do you resort to this immature lines when I put up verifiable evidence? Is this all you have? &quot;I CAN SO NANNY NANNY BOO BOO&quot;??? PLease. You have still yet to provide a response to the Gary Cleck's research sating that 2 million instances of defense occur every year.

According to the 1995 FBI Uniform Crime Report, there were slightly less than 1.8 million violent crimes in the US in 1995. Of this number, 30% involved the use of a firearm (any firearm, not just handguns). Thirty percent of 1.8 million is 540,000 instances where a firearm was used.

540,000 vs 2 million.

4 times as many people saved as suffer. Guns are not evil. Guns save our collective asses from wackos.

 

[jtshaw]

Not all guns are made in the US... in fact, many many more guns are made in other countries then in the US. Just because gun manufacters here shut down doesn't mean the guns won't come to the US from other places. And you certianly can't say we can keep them out...we have been trying with drugs for years and you see how well that is working.

I personally don't want guns, and don't have guns, but it is the right of my fellow citizens, providing they do not have a history of crime, to have guns. It is a fundemental right of citizens in the United States of a American and that is that.

Again, I do believe in gun laws that govern how they should be stored and used. I also believe that 99% of the law abiding citizens out there with guns will follow gun laws such as manditory locked safes for storage and mandatory trigger locks if they were in place. I simply don't believe banning guns is the answer.

 

[Czar]

jtshaw

What country has the most demand for handguns?

If that demand goes down to hardly anything then any manufacturer would have to cut down production regardles of where they are.

 

[Raspewtin]

<< There are too many guns in our society >>




I agree. I also support registering hand-guns. I've heard the argument &quot;Only law abiding citizens will follow the law, so why have it?&quot; This seems weak to me. Why have laws at all if only law abiding people follow them? When asked that way, it illustrates how silly the argument is.

However, I used to think the NRA holds views representative of all gun owners, but I've since realized this is not the case. The number of registered NRA members is actually amazing small, and there are plenty of gun owner who support registration, or at least don't oppose it. It was so easy for me to demonize gun owners.

Most are normal people, what's bad is certain individuals and groups (such as the NRA) that pretend to speak for all gun owners. Once we demonstrate the vocal minority is actually a minority with a disportional influence in government, positive change can happen IMO.

 

[DaBoneHead]

Russ,


I know the specific laws are on the books, but they aren't being enforced well. The fault for that lies with federal government. Recently I was talking to an ATF agent and he just laughed about the laws. He said that if they were to strictly enforce the existing laws they would require a massive amount of money and more people. They simply aren't being funded well enough to handle Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearm law enforcement.

And alot of the Firearm enforcement is dangerous stuff on both sides. Remember Waco?

I don't like the NRA, though I know some of you do. I honestly believe that if they cooperated with the government more they could come to some consensus on what gun control is, and be a major player in enforcing it. However, they (the NRA) tends to be reactionary, and views any attempt at gun control as the first step in gun banning, and for many of us this is the furthest from the truth. Yes, of course there are some who do want to ban guns altogether, but you have whackos on both sides of the issue, and they are a minority. We have to learn to live with guns in our society in the most responsible way, without infringing on peoples rights, and that will only happen if a consensus can be formed on how to moderate weapons. I'm for making people buy a kiddie-locks if they have a family (part of the questionnare you fill out should indicate this). Or a lock-box if they are in a high crime neighborhood. Though the latter has a few drawbacks, it also has some benefits, and they'd have to be weighed together.

I'm definitely against concealed weapons, and people with guns in their cars. This just begs for road-rage tragedies. Cars are bad enough, put guns in the cars and its the wild-west at 80mph.

I know some of you have concealed weapons permits. But I'd ask you to be careful about where you go with them. You might find that just because you have a concealed weapons permit, it doesn't mean you can take a gun anywhere you want. Also, by having a gun on you, You could be infringin on others rights, since you are putting others in danger whether you think so or not...

Oh, and watch out for lawyers... accidental injury/death by someone carrying a concealed weapon could find you not only in jail, but paying for the rest of your life in the $$$ way.

So remember, before shooting into a crowd, always yell &quot;WE NEED A LAWYER, FAST!&quot;, and make sure you get whoever comes forward first...

 

[Dameon]

DaBoneHead

&quot;What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit.&quot;
&quot;More Permits Mean Less Crime...&quot; Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5

840 times less likely to commit a violent act then your average joe... sounds like a concealed weapons permit holder should be the first person you trust, not the last.

 

[zogar]

I lived in nigeria, and guns were outlawed there. the criminals bought weapons from the military and police... and the smaller criminals made crude guns with pipes and things. The law abiding people lived in fear. they built huge stone walls around thier property with crushed glass cemented to it to keep thieves away. Crime was out of control, police couldnt patrol everywhere... so they set up road blocks every 5 miles or so and searched every ones car. If they saw something they liked, they took it. If you gave them money, they would wave you through. In conclusion... banning guns did nothing but hurt the law abiding citizens, and it increased corruption in the law inforcement.

 

[jtshaw]

czar:
I really don't know what country out there has the most market for handguns. Would I be surprised if it was the US? Yes, I would. I know there are plenty of countries out there where almost all the citizens have guns of some kind or another. That certainly isn't the case around here. Sure, gun production might go down some if the US wasn't buying anymore. But there are already millions of guns out there that could make it here even if nobody built guns anymore and that is something I think we can all agree will never happen. I respect peoples rights to protect themselves. I know many people who have saved lives, or had there lives saved because of firearms. Not to say an equal if not greater amout of people were killed/hurt unlawfully by them. In my mind banning guns will do nothing more then take them out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

And for the person who though the comment &quot;only law abiding citizens follow the law anyway&quot;....well DUH!

 

[Napalm381]

<< If that demand goes down to hardly anything then any manufacturer would have to cut down production regardles of where they are. >>

While United States demand would go down, there would still be a huge demand for them in the rest of the world. The overseas factories cranking out the cheapo guns would perhaps cut production a bit, but overall production would still be quite large. Furthermore, how would you suggest stopping the illegal flow of these weapons into the US? We're not doing a very good job right now, how would a few more laws make any sort of meaningful difference?

 

[ToBeMe]

I suppose you're against hunting also then..........I support that we need stricter regulation on Hand-Guns and Auto-Matic weapons.............but Don't Even Come Out Against Hunting and the Firearms Used Therein!!! Maybe you live in a nice concrete and pavement city as I now do.......but I grew up in a small town. Everyone in that town and nearly everyone like it in rual America owns weapons that they use for hunting. Ya' know what.......the last murder in my home town was in the 1920's and it was over prohibition! Per Capita our community, like many had many, many more guns than are owned in the cities......I started hunting when I was 11 and so has my oldest son....with no incidents EVER! Maybe you never had a freind or relative that relied upon a farm to make a living.......Well I have and do! I have seen well in excess of 300 Deer in a herd eating away at my Uncles livelyhood........what would you have people do? Displace them? Nope, that causes a 72% mortality rate from displacement shock....well? I'll tell you.....You hunt them once a year in the Fall and you use the meat to feed your family! If you have more than you can use, you give it away to a freind, or a food shelter........I swear, if I had a penny for every darned idiot whom does not understand hunting &amp; wildlife control.......I'd be a rich man!!!!!

 

[jkersenbr]

I quote from Ben Franklin, one of the Founders of this nation:

Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

Is that clear?

This is not a question of regulation v. banning. Anycompromise of freedom is a loss of it. Any loss of freedom by the citizenry gives the government more illegitimate power.

Firearms represent power to those without understanding. They are actually a means of controlling the use of power. The Constitution placed them in the hands of the citizens to prevent the government from exclusively holding that power.

When the BATF/FBI/Gestapo seize all guns, only the government will hold that power. They can then eliminate all resistance using whatever means they deem necessary because they have nothing to fear.

We will then see just how &quot;secure&quot; life is without freedom. Just ask the Jews, slaves, or anyone else who has been a target of government oppression just how secure life without freedom is.

And be reminded of what another Founding Patriot said: Give me Liberty or give me DEATH! This was re-iterated during the Cold War as: Better dead than red!

Anyone who wants to take my gun can have it -- BULLETS FIRST :|

Be Ever Vigilant!

 

[Windogg]

ToBeMe, to add to your statememt. I had a friend from Maryland that grew up in West Virgina in a old coal town. The family barely had enough money to scrape together a living. In the winter, what little they had went to clothing and medicine. As for food, the dad would take the two sons out to the woods and they would bag a dear. The meat helped sustain them through the winter. Without their trusty rifle, they familiy would have staved to death. They were very proud and didn't want to go on public assistance. Instead they lived on their own terms.

Windogg

 

[IBhacknU]

while you're all at it... let's ban drinking and driving. That kills 1000's more than guns each year.

(whoops! it's already against the law to drink and drive)

 

[chess9]

Classy:

I could not agree more with your views, but this a tech forum. Almost all of these guys have love affairs with metal of some sort. If the metal has moving parts, they get really excited. Since bullets move very fast, the sexual excitement is beyond the ken of normal beings.

So, please don't suggest we take their metal away. The resulting havoc would be just too dreadful to comprehend.

 

[Dameon]

Egads Chess9, you starting in on this Freudian garbage too? I'd figure you could come up with something a bit more substantial for the discussion. But what else can I expect from the gun grabber camp who's lost every other point and is pretty much left with cheap freudian-wannabe psychology and namecalling.

 

[Moogle]

I don't much understand this topic.

I live in the UK, and we have strict laws on the use and ownership of firearms. On the flip side, we rarely have a firearm related incident either.

But that's probably not just due to our laws... guns seem to be a part of your culture, whereas they are still largely alien here. I don't understand the American fascination with firearms.

What I also don't understand is people selling and defending their right to carry tools which have no other purpose than to maim and kill people*. But then I'm probably an idealist. I suspect the gun culture is so firmly entrenched in the identity of the nation that it'll take more than a few laws to shift it at this point.

(*Gun dealers selling semi- / automatic weapons. Extremely high caliber handguns. Equipment like that - that's a little bit tricky to justify for mere hunting or minimum force self defence.. unless you'd like your prey/attacker swiss cheesed out of existence. Odd.)

 

[damocles]

As someone that lives in a country with a very large number of firearms and quite strong gun control (New Zealand)i dont particularly care what stance people in the USA take. There seem to be 2 issues

1) The right to bear Arms.
2) The relationship between firearms and crime.

Concerning the first point, thats a social/constitutional issue so i wont comment

Regarding the second- in general terms-there are links between violent crime and gun control. Of course there are many other variable that have an effect (economy, culture etc), but there is definately a correlation.

On an international level, Australia's homicide rate in 1997/8 was:
twice the rate in Japan;
slightly higher than the rate in England &amp; Wales and Germany;
similar to the rate in Canada and NZ; and
almost a quarter of the rate in the United States.

Australia crime stats

 

[skywhr]

I love my gun.
Why take away my gun and let the criminals keep theirs!
How ignorant can you be not to realise that even after you ban guns, there will be a huge black market and crime rates will go through the roof.