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marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,444
27
91
Yeah, gotta love the reactionary responses ya get here, huh? :roll:

Similar story today at CNN.com. First Lt medically discharged from the army went through a similar situation, and is being reimbursed for it.

The way it explains it in that story, is that there were 2 forms that should have been filled out, and weren't, and that's why he was charged for the body armor. Big surprise, the US army runs on paperwork, and if you don't do the right paperwork (anyone familiar with "complete these forms, in triplicate!!!"????), they think you just threw away your body armor, and deserve to reimburse them for it.

Granted, someone, somewhere, should have told these guys about the forms to be filled out, and should have actually filled them out for guys that are injured. But since when does the army make sense??? :laugh:
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,519
595
126
Originally posted by: marvdmartian
Yeah, gotta love the reactionary responses ya get here, huh? :roll:

Similar story today at CNN.com. First Lt medically discharged from the army went through a similar situation, and is being reimbursed for it.

The way it explains it in that story, is that there were 2 forms that should have been filled out, and weren't, and that's why he was charged for the body armor. Big surprise, the US army runs on paperwork, and if you don't do the right paperwork (anyone familiar with "complete these forms, in triplicate!!!"????), they think you just threw away your body armor, and deserve to reimburse them for it.

Granted, someone, somewhere, should have told these guys about the forms to be filled out, and should have actually filled them out for guys that are injured. But since when does the army make sense??? :laugh:

The army should teach these guys how to fill out forms with their mouth...especially useful after they get their arms and legs blown off....

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: marvdmartian
Yeah, gotta love the reactionary responses ya get here, huh? :roll:

Similar story today at CNN.com. First Lt medically discharged from the army went through a similar situation, and is being reimbursed for it.

The way it explains it in that story, is that there were 2 forms that should have been filled out, and weren't, and that's why he was charged for the body armor. Big surprise, the US army runs on paperwork, and if you don't do the right paperwork (anyone familiar with "complete these forms, in triplicate!!!"????), they think you just threw away your body armor, and deserve to reimburse them for it.

Granted, someone, somewhere, should have told these guys about the forms to be filled out, and should have actually filled them out for guys that are injured. But since when does the army make sense??? :laugh:

The army should teach these guys how to fill out forms with their mouth...especially useful after they get their arms and legs blown off....

Really, he should've learned to use his telepathy to fill out to two forms too.
 

Commish

Senior member
Jan 11, 2001
795
1
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

The army should teach these guys how to fill out forms with their mouth...especially useful after they get their arms and legs blown off....

That's completely uncalled for, show some class.

 

thepieces

Member
Jun 2, 2004
107
0
0
moonbeam reminds me of one of those politicians who would not send his kid to fight in the war but loves to talk crap on the sidelines. He seems to put a higher value on military equipment than human life. Quite sad
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Not surprising at all; just more blunders from the Bush administration.

I'd like to see how it is you can pin this on the Bush administration. Sheesh. I hope you don't forget to wipe this morning - that's be the President's fault somehow, too.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: thepieces
moonbeam reminds me of one of those politicians who would not send his kid to fight in the war but loves to talk crap on the sidelines. He seems to put a higher value on military equipment than human life. Quite sad

Since you're new, I'll just tell you...

You need to reconfigure your sarcasm meter. ;)
 

thepieces

Member
Jun 2, 2004
107
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: thepieces
moonbeam reminds me of one of those politicians who would not send his kid to fight in the war but loves to talk crap on the sidelines. He seems to put a higher value on military equipment than human life. Quite sad

Since you're new, I'll just tell you...

You need to reconfigure your sarcasm meter. ;)


Thanks for the tip.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Originally posted by: oldman420
don't worry bush's new budget will make college unaffordable for a large cross section of the population, those GI loans start looking like the only way to get ahead.

Just another way to increase the recruitment. Offer big education incentives by the military and reduce the civilian education incentives. Who needs a draft when you make wages grow less than inflation and reduce the ability of people to educate themselves?
 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,444
27
91
Originally posted by: FuzzyBee
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Not surprising at all; just more blunders from the Bush administration.

I'd like to see how it is you can pin this on the Bush administration. Sheesh. I hope you don't forget to wipe this morning - that's be the President's fault somehow, too.

ROFLMAO :D
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
This stuff absolutely happens and is fairly common. This (and worse) has happened to my cousin after he was injured in Iraq.

He was sent to Walter Reed after he recieved a major head trauma after an IED exploded on his convoy around Falluja in Dec '04. He was in a coma for 63 days. The med care he recieved at Walter Reed was excellent, but he was moved to be discharged very quickly due to the high volume of injured coming in. He had recovered a good deal physically, but the head trauma left with him with a lot of mental damage. Basically he is crazy (tho is getting better w/ time and lots of meds.) He lives in what I can only describe as a dream state. He is fairly normal to talk to, he will tell you about stories of being on patrol in Iraq, but then follow up with a story that is absolutely ludicrous, but he believes it to be absolutely true, even if it is competely illogical. Eg. He was taken to Iraq when 2 guys from the CIA flew over to his house and picked him up in an airplane cockpit (not the whole airplane, just the cockpit....) and flew him to Baghdad. You have to explain to him that that isn't real, and couldn't have happened. He doesn't totally believe you.


Anyway, after he was discharged the Army lost complete track of him. He wasn't recieving the mental counciling and treatments he was supposed to recieve. He lives in a rural area and there are few treatment centers, and when contacted by the family the Army was very slow and cooperative.

Lowlights:
The Army recinded the Purple Heart he was to recieve, on the day of his discharge. (and against personal assurances from Rummy and his wife who visted the ward several times in his stay)
-It was decided it was a "non-combat" injury, b/c the final report concluded that he left the vehicle to secure the situation after the IED exploded on the lead cars ahead. In the chaos, a cargo truck slammed into his HV, killing the private in back and rolling the truck onto him. It was an "accident," not combat.
-You may or may not know, combat vs non-combat injury benefits are very different. Guess which one is lower. Recinding the Purple Heart has huge consequences as well, among them his 10 yo daughter whould not recieve the college scholarship benefits awarded.

2 months later he was notfied by the Army they would be withholding $20,000 from his pay based on missing equipment (his coma is not their problem) other accounting failures.

He is notified that ~summer that he will be shipping out again in the fall. Meanwhile he's sleeping at night in foxholes he digs in his yard because he thinks the Iraqis are going to attack his house. The army hospitals do not care to pick him up for treatment.

The whole body armor pay charges scandal goes public sometime last summer IIRC. The family contacts local papers, and some national media orgs after they ran stories to report my cousins experience and on going battle with the army over his continuing withheld pay.

A local reporter picks up the story and publishes no less than 3 articles in the paper following my cousin, finally attracting the attention of the State Senator. He's pissed, and finnally things begin to happen.

My cousins pay is finally released in full, last week, some 14 months after he was injured. His injuries are also upgraded to "combat-related" and recieves the max injury bonus for all the time he spent in the coma. Only $100K at that.


My cousin was never wealthy and sole income earner for his family, hence why (in part) he joined the reserves. The pay you recieve during activation is little, and it was even less after he was medically discharged. His family is financially ruined, especially after the additional burden of withheld pay for a year and his inability to work (bc he's loco) and support his daughter. Only through the family's support has his family survived.


He was in theater 3 months when he was injured, but he will never be the person he was and his daughter has essentially lost her father forever.


Please excuse if some of the details are incorrect, they are to the best of my knowledge but the whole thing has been a giant cluster F, and no one has good answers. We don't really even know how he was injured as the final report is the 5th and completely different version we were told. Parts of it contradict what his unit member's attest to. We'll never really know.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Suprisingly enough, when asked my cousin wants to return to Iraq. Not because of the mission or for the F'in Iraqis, but because he want to go back and help protect the brothers in his unit. Thankfully for us, he can not go back.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Not surprising at all; just more blunders from the Bush administration.

Giving KBR/Halliburton a blank check (and letting them steal $1.4 billion in the process) while charging injured vets for armor (after taking ages to even provide it to them).

Gotta love it.

This has nothing to do with Bush. Its typical Army. Stop talking out your ass. CIF (where stuff is issued) is the meanest place in the world. Ask any vet.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,519
595
126
Originally posted by: Commish
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

The army should teach these guys how to fill out forms with their mouth...especially useful after they get their arms and legs blown off....

That's completely uncalled for, show some class.

So is charging a soldier $700 who has risked his life and has been injured in combat.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

So is charging a soldier $700 who has risked his life and has been injured in combat.

But theres no paperwork to prove it. His CO basicially fvcked him. Its not the Army's fault, its his chain of command thats at fault. Otherwise people would take advantage of the system.

This is why its bad for soldiers to go to the media. This shouldn't even be a subject for debate. Theres already a working system in place for "field loss" of equipment.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

So is charging a soldier $700 who has risked his life and has been injured in combat.

But theres no paperwork to prove it. His CO basicially fvcked him. Its not the Army's fault, its his chain of command thats at fault. Otherwise people would take advantage of the system.

This is why its bad for soldiers to go to the media. This shouldn't even be a subject for debate. Theres already a working system in place for "field loss" of equipment.

And there's no recourse for him to go beyond his CO. That is the army's fault, sorry.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
Originally posted by: Hafen
This stuff absolutely happens and is fairly common. This (and worse) has happened to my cousin after he was injured in Iraq.

He was sent to Walter Reed after he recieved a major head trauma after an IED exploded on his convoy around Falluja in Dec '04. He was in a coma for 63 days. The med care he recieved at Walter Reed was excellent, but he was moved to be discharged very quickly due to the high volume of injured coming in. He had recovered a good deal physically, but the head trauma left with him with a lot of mental damage. Basically he is crazy (tho is getting better w/ time and lots of meds.) He lives in what I can only describe as a dream state. He is fairly normal to talk to, he will tell you about stories of being on patrol in Iraq, but then follow up with a story that is absolutely ludicrous, but he believes it to be absolutely true, even if it is competely illogical. Eg. He was taken to Iraq when 2 guys from the CIA flew over to his house and picked him up in an airplane cockpit (not the whole airplane, just the cockpit....) and flew him to Baghdad. You have to explain to him that that isn't real, and couldn't have happened. He doesn't totally believe you.


Anyway, after he was discharged the Army lost complete track of him. He wasn't recieving the mental counciling and treatments he was supposed to recieve. He lives in a rural area and there are few treatment centers, and when contacted by the family the Army was very slow and cooperative.

Lowlights:
The Army recinded the Purple Heart he was to recieve, on the day of his discharge. (and against personal assurances from Rummy and his wife who visted the ward several times in his stay)
-It was decided it was a "non-combat" injury, b/c the final report concluded that he left the vehicle to secure the situation after the IED exploded on the lead cars ahead. In the chaos, a cargo truck slammed into his HV, killing the private in back and rolling the truck onto him. It was an "accident," not combat.
-You may or may not know, combat vs non-combat injury benefits are very different. Guess which one is lower. Recinding the Purple Heart has huge consequences as well, among them his 10 yo daughter whould not recieve the college scholarship benefits awarded.

2 months later he was notfied by the Army they would be withholding $20,000 from his pay based on missing equipment (his coma is not their problem) other accounting failures.

He is notified that ~summer that he will be shipping out again in the fall. Meanwhile he's sleeping at night in foxholes he digs in his yard because he thinks the Iraqis are going to attack his house. The army hospitals do not care to pick him up for treatment.

The whole body armor pay charges scandal goes public sometime last summer IIRC. The family contacts local papers, and some national media orgs after they ran stories to report my cousins experience and on going battle with the army over his continuing withheld pay.

A local reporter picks up the story and publishes no less than 3 articles in the paper following my cousin, finally attracting the attention of the State Senator. He's pissed, and finnally things begin to happen.

My cousins pay is finally released in full, last week, some 14 months after he was injured. His injuries are also upgraded to "combat-related" and recieves the max injury bonus for all the time he spent in the coma. Only $100K at that.


My cousin was never wealthy and sole income earner for his family, hence why (in part) he joined the reserves. The pay you recieve during activation is little, and it was even less after he was medically discharged. His family is financially ruined, especially after the additional burden of withheld pay for a year and his inability to work (bc he's loco) and support his daughter. Only through the family's support has his family survived.


He was in theater 3 months when he was injured, but he will never be the person he was and his daughter has essentially lost her father forever.


Please excuse if some of the details are incorrect, they are to the best of my knowledge but the whole thing has been a giant cluster F, and no one has good answers. We don't really even know how he was injured as the final report is the 5th and completely different version we were told. Parts of it contradict what his unit member's attest to. We'll never really know.

What is this water that rolls down my cheeks? Where could it have come from?
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

And there's no recourse for him to go beyond his CO. That is the army's fault, sorry.

Yes, there is. Its called teh chain of command. The newspapers are not part of the chain of command. I'm not saying that he's at fault, but he could have fought harder.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
136
There are two ludicriously simple ways to solve this problem going outside the military chain of command. You either complain to your senator or go to the local big-city media (newspaper and TV). The ONLY people that ever get burned in this sort of snafu are those that don't go outside military channels.

I'd say the chances are about 100:1 that this guy has his money back and an apology by tomorrow's press deadline.

This story is about as predictable as what happens to the local family whose home burns down/Xmas presents all stolen a week before Christmas. As the cop says as the accident scene, nothing to see folks, move along.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Remember the story a few months back about the soldier who lost his arm and then they sent him a bill for back pay. Apparently while he was in the hospital they were paying him combat pay. The computer then billed him, of course he was broke and had no money. Pretty sad how we treat our vets after we use them up.

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/12/10/abandon1.htm
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
You are not charged for unavoidable loss. I have lost gear several times due to unavoidable circumstances while on missions. I recieved a statement of charges for it. I submitted a written statement that the loss was unavoidable. PAC returned a couple of forms for me to sign, and that was the end of it.

Soldiers expecting the Army to wipe their butt for them are either young and naive, or totally new to how the Army works. You take care of your own mess, and NEVER leave the Army to do anything for you without keeping an eye on them.

Once again, the press, (and many soldiers) are still clueless as to how the Army works.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: dimensionOFdissension
We send our masses to die for the benefit of the few and then we charge them for the privledge. Wonderful.

No! He was charged for the estimated cost of the equipment issued and expected to be returned. The military was simply following procedure. And, since he is due a Purple Heart when the injury is substantiated he can use that document to request a refund via a different procedure. He will be out the 700$ only for awhile. The actual issue here is that the folks removed his equipment without filling out the appropriate paperwork. Exigent circumstances may provide for this action but the procedure for subsequent filing of equipment destruction in keeping with DOD guidelines may not allow for this filing since a bio hazard did exist but cannot actually be proved if they did not keep the equipment to have the appropriate official take pictures of the blood on the item. These folks are issued ... and are expected to return ... the bio hazard protective gear so they may not have followed procedure in this case. This matter may have far reaching consequences.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

And there's no recourse for him to go beyond his CO. That is the army's fault, sorry.

Yes, there is. Its called teh chain of command. The newspapers are not part of the chain of command. I'm not saying that he's at fault, but he could have fought harder.

(I'm aware that he should be able to go to his CO's CO).

The article doesn't make it entirely clear where his attempts ended, and when he just paid the money to get out. It certainly appears he was stonewalled, and was going to spend a rather exorbinant amount of time trying to get back his $700. The fact that there used to be a procedure that would have solved this quickly, and now there isn't is suspicious.

I mean, I know there are billions of dollars unaccounted for in Iraq, but I don't think it's being stolen by enlisted men:p