This is amusing

[sapiens74]

As a resident of Hawaii, i'm proud of them for doing what the state couldn't do


This represents how government has utterly failed at the most basic level

 

[Farang]

There is a reason we have codes and a very complex contracting system. Go to a third world country and see what local ingenuity gets you, even with modern materials. I've stood on my share of bridges that dip seemingly to the point of breaking as cars go over them. This is a bad idea, the bridge should be torn down and rebuilt.

Yes, even if it is a perfectly functioning bridge. If it isn't torn down, the government is going to have to start inspecting every homemade public improvement project, the majority of which won't be up to code.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

Thats the problem with america these days it's sue happy. Who pays the tab when there is an earth quake and you get pancaked on a double decker bridge?

There are no guarantees in life. If you van didn't have insurance or the business didn't have good business insurance then I guess it would suck to be you!

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Genx87
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/...eers.repair/index.html

"We shouldn't have to do this, but when it gets to a state level, it just gets so bureaucratic, something that took us eight days would have taken them years," said Troy Martin of Martin Steel, who donated machinery and steel for the repairs. "So we got together -- the community -- and we got it done."

That sad truth of it all that what these people did in 8 days and for free would take the state years of hand holding, studies, debating, and a minimum of 4 million dollars.

Perfect example of why big government doesn't work.

If there were no building codes or oversite you would have failing structures, much more severe fire dangers, entire cities collapsing in CA during earthquakes/etc./etc. We have an affiliate engineering company who does mainly inspections of residential complexes. The contractors try to get away with everything, ranging from installing siding with no proper anchoring to the structure all the way down to foundation shortcutting.

I have to give major props to these guys for having the gusto to build that bridge, I do hope they built it to code though because if they didn't it will be torn down and for good reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...orthern_Railway_(U.S.)

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
lol. I'm not surprised. Everything to do with the US government is slow and retarded.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[JKing106]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

That's the beauty! Nobody! No trials, no lawyers, nobody but the stupid peasants themselves! It's brilliant!

Back in the real world, this whole episode is shameful.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: sactoking
So long as it's built to code, it shouldn't be torn down. The article didn't specify, but based on the work being done and machinery involved, I'd guess that at least one person involved was a contractor/engineer.

Also, union labor/prevailing wage won't be an issue since government funding wasn't used and any existing contracts likely are also irrelevant since bridge repair is not an item commonly put out under a JOC (job order contract).

unless a sample of every material was sent for QA testing, and the entire structure inspected, then it was not built to code. AASHTO road and bridge specs are very tight.
If this bridge collapses and someone is injured, this is going to be 1 giant painful lawsuit.


chances are the state will close the bridge and the newly repaired bridge will still go unused until the state can replace it.

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Genx87
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/...eers.repair/index.html

"We shouldn't have to do this, but when it gets to a state level, it just gets so bureaucratic, something that took us eight days would have taken them years," said Troy Martin of Martin Steel, who donated machinery and steel for the repairs. "So we got together -- the community -- and we got it done."

That sad truth of it all that what these people did in 8 days and for free would take the state years of hand holding, studies, debating, and a minimum of 4 million dollars.

Perfect example of why big government doesn't work.

If there were no building codes or oversite you would have failing structures, much more severe fire dangers, entire cities collapsing in CA during earthquakes/etc./etc. We have an affiliate engineering company who does mainly inspections of residential complexes. The contractors try to get away with everything, ranging from installing siding with no proper anchoring to the structure all the way down to foundation shortcutting.

I have to give major props to these guys for having the gusto to build that bridge, I do hope they built it to code though because if they didn't it will be torn down and for good reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...orthern_Railway_(U.S.)

LOL you really wanna go there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...n_Francisco_earthquake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_New_York

I could go on. Building codes were designed by engineers, they were designed to protect people in the most practical way possible.

Unfortunately contractors have recently gotten involved in building codes. One very minor example is a change of New Jersey's building code for housing complexes. It was always a requirement to pipe bathroom fans to the outside, this was because of moisture removal. Somehow the contractors got to change the fucking law to only require charcoal recirculation fans. This does jack shit for moisture removal and only deals with odors which is not why the law was implemented in the first place.

If you think our society could function without codes like AISC , ASME, API you are out of your mind.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: MotF Bane
It'd be nice to get an estimate from the volunteers for how much the materials cost them, just for comparison purposes. Good for them getting it done though.

That and what wages would have been paid then the whole code/safety issue.

Yea it sounds good on paper but being the first was washed away and all this looks like is a steel plate I doubt it will last either.

Pay bazillions for a guaranteed safe road or pay a fraction of it for a road thats just a little less safe. I'd take the more dangerous road. It has more price/performance.

Cool... You can be on the hook when someone is killed.

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: MotF Bane
It'd be nice to get an estimate from the volunteers for how much the materials cost them, just for comparison purposes. Good for them getting it done though.

That and what wages would have been paid then the whole code/safety issue.

Yea it sounds good on paper but being the first was washed away and all this looks like is a steel plate I doubt it will last either.

Pay bazillions for a guaranteed safe road or pay a fraction of it for a road thats just a little less safe. I'd take the more dangerous road. It has more price/performance.

Cool... You can be on the hook when someone is killed.

Seriously. I'll quickly break down what would be required for this bridge.

First of all it's steel construction, so you would use the AISC Allowable Stress Design (ASD). This more or less allows you to reach 60% of the yield stress of the design under maximum load conditions. This is mainly for tension members, compression members would be limited by buckling criteria. Additionally once you have properly designed the steel members you will need to ensure your foundation is properly made. To do this accurately you should do a soil test to more or less determine the rate of settling vs. weight. With a soil test you can lay a properly sized foundation for your design loads on the bridge. Additionally earthquake loadings should be considered, I believe volcanic activity would make Hawaii the highest level earthquake zone.

This is from the engineering perspective, I don't give a shit about construction permits/greasing anyone's hand. I am talking about building this bridge properly and not killing anyone.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

Thats the problem with america these days it's sue happy. Who pays the tab when there is an earth quake and you get pancaked on a double decker bridge?

There are no guarantees in life. If you van didn't have insurance or the business didn't have good business insurance then I guess it would suck to be you!

Earthquake = Act of God(Err, Earth) = Insurance no matter.

Bridge built out of the old material you had sitting outside in the lot behind your warehouse and had no chance of using on a project someone paid you to do collapsing and killing an entire vanful of 7 year old schoolgirls on their way to choir competition is someones fault.

There's a reason I don't expect the bridges I drive on to collapse, and its because they are built to code and someone watches the builder.

It is no accident when a poorly built structure fails.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

Thats the problem with america these days it's sue happy. Who pays the tab when there is an earth quake and you get pancaked on a double decker bridge?

There are no guarantees in life. If you van didn't have insurance or the business didn't have good business insurance then I guess it would suck to be you!

Earthquake = Act of God(Err, Earth) = Insurance no matter.

Bridge built out of the old material you had sitting outside in the lot behind your warehouse and had no chance of using on a project someone paid you to do collapsing and killing an entire vanful of 7 year old schoolgirls on their way to choir competition is someones fault.

There's a reason I don't expect the bridges I drive on to collapse, and its because they are built to code and someone watches the builder.

It is no accident when a poorly built structure fails.

Those same people you trust to protect you from bad bridges are also the ones that were supposed to protect you from the recent financial meltdown as well. How did that work out?

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

Thats the problem with america these days it's sue happy. Who pays the tab when there is an earth quake and you get pancaked on a double decker bridge?

There are no guarantees in life. If you van didn't have insurance or the business didn't have good business insurance then I guess it would suck to be you!

Earthquake = Act of God(Err, Earth) = Insurance no matter.

Bridge built out of the old material you had sitting outside in the lot behind your warehouse and had no chance of using on a project someone paid you to do collapsing and killing an entire vanful of 7 year old schoolgirls on their way to choir competition is someones fault.

There's a reason I don't expect the bridges I drive on to collapse, and its because they are built to code and someone watches the builder.

It is no accident when a poorly built structure fails.

Those same people you trust to protect you from bad bridges are also the ones that were supposed to protect you from the recent financial meltdown as well. How did that work out?

People who create engineering codes AISC/ASME/API are actual engineers interested in preserving the professionalism of their industry and preventing needless deaths.

People who provide oversite to the financial industry are more or less clueless political appointments and/or people with significant ties to the financial industry.

Understand the difference or should I spell it out more slowly?

*edit* BTW those codes are not funded by the government. They are paid via membership dues and fees for selling their codes to manufacturers/owner's groups/etc. The point is the government requires people to adhere to those codes and for good fucking reason.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: dphantom
An excellent example of why government should stay tiny. The local people, working with private businesses, always are a more efficient user of resources.

If you leave things like road construction and repair to the "local people, working with private businesses" how many usable roads do you think we'd have in this country?

Free rider problem. Everyone wants to use them, very few want to contribute.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: CLite

Seriously. I'll quickly break down what would be required for this bridge.

First of all it's steel construction, so you would use the AISC Allowable Stress Design (ASD).

LRFD is the wave of the future

I really don't know if adequate engineering has been done prior to designing of this bridge. I don't think the engineering design actually takes that long even if it's done right. (well okay, soil analysis takes a little longer). It's just that in the normal process you'd have to satisfy the environmental people and bureaucrats.


They had to fabricate steel. I'm not aware of any big steel mills in Hawaii. Maybe they imported it? If some engineer oversaw it and put his a$$ on the line I'd be fine with it., not that any engineer who would do that is smart enough to be an engineer. Otherwise... I wouldn't drive over that bridge.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: Turin39789
Who pays the tab when it collapses and there is a 15 passenger van full of tourists crossing it in a rainstorm?

Thats the problem with america these days it's sue happy. Who pays the tab when there is an earth quake and you get pancaked on a double decker bridge?

There are no guarantees in life. If you van didn't have insurance or the business didn't have good business insurance then I guess it would suck to be you!

Earthquake = Act of God(Err, Earth) = Insurance no matter.

Bridge built out of the old material you had sitting outside in the lot behind your warehouse and had no chance of using on a project someone paid you to do collapsing and killing an entire vanful of 7 year old schoolgirls on their way to choir competition is someones fault.

There's a reason I don't expect the bridges I drive on to collapse, and its because they are built to code and someone watches the builder.

It is no accident when a poorly built structure fails.

Those same people you trust to protect you from bad bridges are also the ones that were supposed to protect you from the recent financial meltdown as well. How did that work out?

So because there was a lack of regulatory oversight in the financial markets that led to a disaster, the answer to better road and bridge construction/repair is to reduce oversight there as well? :roll:

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: CLite

Seriously. I'll quickly break down what would be required for this bridge.

First of all it's steel construction, so you would use the AISC Allowable Stress Design (ASD).

LRFD is the wave of the future

I really don't know if adequate engineering has been done prior to designing of this bridge. I don't think the engineering design actually takes that long even if it's done right. (well okay, soil analysis takes a little longer). It's just that in the normal process you'd have to satisfy the environmental people and bureaucrats.


They had to fabricate steel. I'm not aware of any big steel mills in Hawaii. Maybe they imported it? If some engineer oversaw it and put his a$$ on the line I'd be fine with it., not that any engineer who would do that is smart enough to be an engineer. Otherwise... I wouldn't drive over that bridge.

TBH I don't know much about structural. I mainly do ASME related design/analysis, pressure design, fatigue life/etc.

The article mentions they used old railroad ties for the construction, not new steel. Since that shit is not galvanized I hope they blasted it and repainted per NACE specifications. Otherwise it will probably corrode fairly fast.

And I agree they don't need to do very complicated equations, I imagine if they did some roughshod calculations and just applied a 200% multiplier on them it should be gtg.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: CLite

Seriously. I'll quickly break down what would be required for this bridge.

First of all it's steel construction, so you would use the AISC Allowable Stress Design (ASD).

LRFD is the wave of the future

I really don't know if adequate engineering has been done prior to designing of this bridge. I don't think the engineering design actually takes that long even if it's done right. (well okay, soil analysis takes a little longer). It's just that in the normal process you'd have to satisfy the environmental people and bureaucrats.


They had to fabricate steel. I'm not aware of any big steel mills in Hawaii. Maybe they imported it? If some engineer oversaw it and put his a$$ on the line I'd be fine with it., not that any engineer who would do that is smart enough to be an engineer. Otherwise... I wouldn't drive over that bridge.

TBH I don't know much about structural. I mainly do ASME related design/analysis, pressure design, fatigue life/etc.

The article mentions they used old railroad ties for the construction, not new steel. Since that shit is not galvanized I hope they blasted it and repainted per NACE specifications. Otherwise it will probably corrode fairly fast.

And I agree they don't need to do very complicated equations, I imagine if they did some roughshod calculations and just applied a 200% multiplier on them it should be gtg.

I'm a concrete guy so I'd build it out of concrete personally, but then it'd probably be more expensive. I was under the impression that a lot of steel forms a protective layer of rust and won't corrode (unless it's a marine environment)?

On second thought, I don't know what the traffic volume of this road is. As long as the material can handle it and they don't start driving tanks on it, who cares? Just close it when the weather is bad, maybe they'll get lucky and nothing will happen for 50-100 years. Or would the entire state of HI (less the mountains) be submerged during that time when the bridge would be worthless.