This is all so dissappointing...

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Syntax Error

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: richwenzel
There is no price gouging going on. Nvidia/ATI misunderstood the market for their goods and misaligned their MSRPS. Imagine the GT was MSRP at $450...seems aboutright since it is better than the 640mb gts. If it was then selling at $300, you would think it was deep discounted.

If the card sucked and couldnt compete with a 8600, and it had a $250 msrp, they wouldnt sell it at 250, they would sell it at 150 or whatever a 8600gt goes for.

Price gouging is a very specific term that a lot of people completely misuse. I will give you an example of price gouging, a tornado hits a large city, people need medical supplies/water etc. Some people from a nearby city that was unaffected and in no danger comes to that town and sells these products 10x what they normally charge. That is price gouging.

This is just basic economics. The demand at $250 is higher than supply.

Rich

How can you say there is no price gouging? If a product is brought to market at a specific price and initially meets that price, but then as supply and demand kick in, the price is raised at retailers, do you not consider that price gouging?

The card may be "worth" more than its MSRP to some, but you can't just ignore what its price range is supposed to be. As supply kicks in, the price is going to come back down to what it was launched it.

That's when prices go up, duh. Limited supple and higher demand equate to higher prices for the customer.

I don't consider that price gouging, what prevents an retailer from raising prices on a product when demand is high and his stock is limited? Morality and ethics? The retailer also has money to earn as well, hence their very existence: to make money.

Blame those who buy the cards at the elevated prices, as they're the ones with the disposable income that can't be damned about "MSRP" because they're strapped and are impatient.

For those who wish to be frugal in their choice of video cards, it's unfortunate you missed the best time to order the 8800GT or the HD3870 at optimal prices, but you're going to have to be on the lookout for slick deals (such as the Best Buy 8800GT deal) or pay the extra premium to get the card NOW rather than LATER.

Don't duh me. You said the same thing I did.

Nothing prevents a retailer from raising prices in this situation, but it's still gouging when the market for the card is supposed to be a certain range and retailers are just taking advantage of the situation by going above that range.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by: richwenzel
There is no price gouging going on. Nvidia/ATI misunderstood the market for their goods and misaligned their MSRPS. Imagine the GT was MSRP at $450...seems aboutright since it is better than the 640mb gts. If it was then selling at $300, you would think it was deep discounted.

If the card sucked and couldnt compete with a 8600, and it had a $250 msrp, they wouldnt sell it at 250, they would sell it at 150 or whatever a 8600gt goes for.

Price gouging is a very specific term that a lot of people completely misuse. I will give you an example of price gouging, a tornado hits a large city, people need medical supplies/water etc. Some people from a nearby city that was unaffected and in no danger comes to that town and sells these products 10x what they normally charge. That is price gouging.

This is just basic economics. The demand at $250 is higher than supply.

Rich

But technically wouldn't that be just economics too, since the demand for medical supplies greatly increased?

 

[waffleironhead]

Would you people quit whining!!!! Price gouging is an idea based on what you personally think is FAIR. It has no basis in reality, only in your imagination of what is FAIR. What is fair to you is not what is fair to others. If people are willing to pay that price then the retailers are going to charge it and get away with it. Why would they sell it at msrp when people are waiting in line to pay more?

The only illegal price gouging is when retailers take advantage of people during a crisis. Does upgrading computer hardware constitute a crisis? Maybe in your book, but not in mine.

 

[Syntax Error]

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: Syntax Error

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: richwenzel
There is no price gouging going on. Nvidia/ATI misunderstood the market for their goods and misaligned their MSRPS. Imagine the GT was MSRP at $450...seems aboutright since it is better than the 640mb gts. If it was then selling at $300, you would think it was deep discounted.

If the card sucked and couldnt compete with a 8600, and it had a $250 msrp, they wouldnt sell it at 250, they would sell it at 150 or whatever a 8600gt goes for.

Price gouging is a very specific term that a lot of people completely misuse. I will give you an example of price gouging, a tornado hits a large city, people need medical supplies/water etc. Some people from a nearby city that was unaffected and in no danger comes to that town and sells these products 10x what they normally charge. That is price gouging.

This is just basic economics. The demand at $250 is higher than supply.

Rich

How can you say there is no price gouging? If a product is brought to market at a specific price and initially meets that price, but then as supply and demand kick in, the price is raised at retailers, do you not consider that price gouging?

The card may be "worth" more than its MSRP to some, but you can't just ignore what its price range is supposed to be. As supply kicks in, the price is going to come back down to what it was launched it.

That's when prices go up, duh. Limited supple and higher demand equate to higher prices for the customer.

I don't consider that price gouging, what prevents an retailer from raising prices on a product when demand is high and his stock is limited? Morality and ethics? The retailer also has money to earn as well, hence their very existence: to make money.

Blame those who buy the cards at the elevated prices, as they're the ones with the disposable income that can't be damned about "MSRP" because they're strapped and are impatient.

For those who wish to be frugal in their choice of video cards, it's unfortunate you missed the best time to order the 8800GT or the HD3870 at optimal prices, but you're going to have to be on the lookout for slick deals (such as the Best Buy 8800GT deal) or pay the extra premium to get the card NOW rather than LATER.

Don't duh me. You said the same thing I did.

Nothing prevents a retailer from raising prices in this situation, but it's still gouging when the market for the card is supposed to be a certain range and retailers are just taking advantage of the situation by going above that range.

I guess you missed when 8800GTs were going insanely out of stock whenever it came back in stock? It's stabilized since then, but at around launch time, it was crazy how many people wanted the 8800GT and how little of it was actually in-stock.

Newegg would get some, and a few hours later, it'd be gone. Hence, prices went up.

 

[richwenzel]

Sorry,

For those of you who disagree with what price gouging is, there is a specific definition of price gouging.

For example,

http://www.conciseguidetoecono...com/book/priceGouging/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

"As a criminal offense, Florida's law is reasonably typical. Price gouging may be charged when a supplier of essential goods or services sharply raises the prices asked in anticipation of or during a civil emergency, or when it cancels or dishonors contracts in order to take advantage of an increase in prices related to such an emergency....
The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property. In jurisdictions where there is no such crime, the term may still be used to pressure firms to refrain from such behavior."


This is not price gouging...This is the market demanding more than supply. Everyone of you who calls this price gouging is basically just saying that the price is above what they want to pay, that doesn't make it price gouging.

"Nothing prevents a retailer from raising prices in this situation, but it's still gouging when the market for the card is supposed to be a certain range and retailers are just taking advantage of the situation by going above that range."

Quite frankly, no. Just think of the stock market, if a stock has reported earnings of $2.00 and the "normal" valuation for a company in this sector is 20x earnings, the price "should be" $40, however, if more dollars of investment feel its worth more than $40 (or less) the price moves. Just like a card that originally comes out at $250 is surpassed by others and goes down to $150...The economics of the BROAD market dictated that it should be cheaper. In this case the BROAD market dictated it should be higher.

"Problem with that is that the GT isn't a major improvement in performance from the GTS, which is about a year older. We were sold pretty much last year's performance. $450 for last year's performance? No thanks. $250? That's more like it, especially since the market is somewhat complacent after AMD's lack of competitive parts in the high-end."

$250 was cheaper than the 320mb GTS that were out when the GT was released. This card performs noticeably better than that card, therefore, it should cost more than that card, which is more than $250. Guess what, the market agreed and the price of the GT went up.


"How can you say there is no price gouging? If a product is brought to market at a specific price and initially meets that price, but then as supply and demand kick in, the price is raised at retailers, do you not consider that price gouging?

The card may be "worth" more than its MSRP to some, but you can't just ignore what its price range is supposed to be. As supply kicks in, the price is going to come back down to what it was launched it."

So when I buy something the price always has to be at what people estimate it to be? Wow, our stock market should never go up then, cause well the stock was IPOd at $25 and I should never pay more. Samething with house prices, or any other good. And yes, the price will go down for the GT, when it is surpassed or the market doesn't want it anymore. This is not price gouging. Read the links. This is just a free market. Price gouging can also be a free market, however, it is in an emergency situations. That is the definition of price gouging. All you are saying is that you are upset that someone said it should be cheaper and now its not and the market disagrees with you. If it was $150 you wouldn't whining. However, it would mean that the initial estimate was as wrong as it being $350. Shouldn't the sellers call you price gougers if you only buy at $150? Or is this just a case of if benefits me its cool and if it doesn't than waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh?


Rich

 

[betasub]

Originally posted by: richwenzel
This is just basic economics. The demand at $250 is higher than supply.

QFT

Limited supply (particularly on 8800GT), relatively strong demand (at release/pre-Christmas) maintaining prices above MSRP.

With hindsight, this makes the original MSRP look to have been pitched too low. But that may be all part of the never-ending marketing battle between the two GPU makers.

Also, consider that prices outside the US (e.g. Europe) are as usual even higher, so it's not just localised "gouging", but global economics.

 

[spittledip]

I think when people here use the term "price gouging," it is lightly. The technical definition is not what people are referring to. They are referring to anything over the MSRP I am assuming. And people can say all they want that the MSRP does not mean anything, but i think i will take the manufacturer's idea of price value of a component over that of a retailer any day as they are the ones who actually know what the item is worth.

What an item is worth and what an item is sold for to the consumer are 2 totally different things. When the item is sold for more than what it is worth (the worth being determined by the manufacturer), that is what people would lightly refer to as "price gouging." It's like buying a Mac. You are paying much more than the actual worth of the components and software. It is a trendy item, and so it sells for more than it is worth. Another example is high fashion clothing. the stuff isn't actually worth waht it is sold for (although it is generally worth more than "regular" clothing), but b/c it is a ssociated with status/wealth/power, retailers charge incredibly high prices for it. You aren't paying for the item, you are paying for the status.

It is the same thing with these video cards. You aren't paying for the actual worth of the card, you are paying for the desirability and supply limit. It is a part of capitalism, and it is ok, but it is also ok for people to complain about it as it is an injustice. However, it is just part of the system, and I think we all know that. So thank you for allowing those who are dissatisfied to express it.

Of course, included in the term "worth" as used above is also profit.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Well whats worse, is all these "non-refundable" cards.

 

[betasub]

"non-refundable" - what does that mean? Statutory consumer rights can't just be waived.

 

[Belles Toaster]

Any ways, the supply of cards is easing up. Many online sites do not sell out their specials.
I friend of mine in the distribution business says that the PC market is off this year. Price
gouging is really compensating for a lacklustre year. Yes there was vista which was supposed
to be a real ka-ching in the cash registers but nothing really happened until new game titles
as there was no sense of urgency to get good product out. We may now see some blowout
deals on older stuff to make way for shelf space for newer stuff. (don't forget there's the
CES show in early January to show off new stuff and prototypes!)

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by: betasub
"non-refundable" - what does that mean? Statutory consumer rights can't just be waived.

According to newegg:
Return for refund within: non-refundable
Return for replacement within: 30 days

If it's broke, they can take it back in 30 days. If it doesn't work with your system (for some dumb, yet very Murphy reason) your out of luck.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Like everyone else, I like to get a good deal for the money I spend. But, I'm glad I bought my 2900 Pro when I did. I bought it 3 or 4 months ago and paid $230 for it. Now they are $170. But, think about all the gaming I would have missed if I kept waiting for the absolutely perfect price. Just go out and buy a card and be happy. You can't beat that 2900 Pro for $170. If you want more performance, get the 8800GT... they are easily worth $250 in my opinion.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

I got an MSI 8800GT for $270 including shipping... I see no problem, just the market at work.
Even at 300, the 8800GT is still worth it compared to other Nvidia cards. If the 3870 wasn't inflated either, then people would want that and the prices would rise again. just wait until demand dies down.

 

[Butterbean]

A more interesting angle to me is not the price jacking but the fact there have been so few cards to buy at all. Some have speculated that NV knew the ATI cards would be good and so pushed a card out that could compete with it - but at the cost of undercutting their line-up. The solution for NV in that case was to limit availability:

"Nvidia mystery 'thermal analysis' explained"

"A quick look at Newegg shows that all nine variants of the GT are out of stock. This says they are popular and in short supply, both conclusions are backed up by data from other sources. So how do you prevent people from buying two 8800GTs and SLIing them, beating an Ultra and pocketing the difference themselves? What about three GTs in one of the newer boards?

Nvidia took the easy routes out and vastly limited GT supply, we have heard 20K and 40K boards for the non-denominational winter festivities season (NDWFS). If you want three, you have to go with the GTX or Ultra, or go ATI.

In the end, Nvidia appears to have won the immediate battle, but quite possibly lost the war. Sales numbers for the NDWFS will tell some of the story, but the real number to try and find is how many GTX sales vanish in light of the GT. At least you now know why the gap is so small, and what the mystery 'thermal analysis' was about. µ

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/...stery-thermal-analysis

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: spittledip
I have been waiting for a video card for about 3 months now. I held off on the 320 GTS as I wanted better price. Held off on the 2900 Pro as I wanted better cooling and more energy efficient and better price. Now finally found what I want in the 3870 b/c of cooling and MSRP. Of course now I am waiting another month to find the prices are still way over MSRP and getting really sick of the wait. It is all very frustrating as I am a bit tired of my x800 vanilla.. not that I don't appreciate it, but I have been wanting a better card for a while, but the retailers are screwing us.. Or if there is a decent deal on the card I want it is gone before you know it. I can deal with being frustrated more than I can with being screwed, so I am not the type that will buy when it is way overpriced. Anyone else feel like this? isgust;:|

i see you can deal with it

just hang on ... and keep searching Hot Deals ... they are not making less cards ... it is not a situation like the Wii

No because the Wii sells via gimmick. The Video Cards sell via being useful.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

Question to those complaining. If the 8800GT had a $300 MSRP and the HD3870 a $275 MSRP, would you still be complaining about the current prices?

I don't see what the big deal about MSRP is or why people keep talking about it. The card's price is either worth it or it isn't. MSRP had no decision at all when I decided that $270 for my 8800GT + ETQW was a worthy purchase a month ago.

 

[nullpointerus]

An MSRP is an infallible edict issued by God Himself. It means several things:

1. All the costs associated with a particular card remain constant over any period of time. The price of memory, for example, never fluctuates. Chip yields are never improved. Board components never become cheaper, nor does the labor involved become cheaper.

2. A fair profit of an immutable (but unspecified and apparently somewhat arbitrary) value has been determined by the manufacturer. These people are never wrong. The market always contains the same amount of cards, and this number always matches the number of consumers. Thus, no consumer is ever willing to pay more for one of these cards in a situation of limited supply.

3. No person can ever place more value on the same object than another. (For example a glass of water would be just as important to someone who is dying of dehydration in a desert as to someone who is drowning in the middle of an ocean.) Or...if you don't buy that, then at least buy this: every gamer plays the same games for the same amount of time, and always happens to fit the same definition (which is also completely arbitrary).

4. All resellers must abide by this forever unchangeable number (yon MSRP). The market never changes. Any reseller caught selling stuff at a different price is engaging in soulless opportunism: selling stuff under MSRP is a blatant attempt to trick the (ever-kind-and-nice-and-fair-minded) consumers into granting more market share, whereas selling stuff over MSPR is a blatant rip-off. However, God, in some reason unknown and unknowable by our finite minds, dislikes the latter more than the former, so we never cry foul when something is sold under MSRP.

Thus, consumers are always entirely correct and ethical when pointing out that anything being sold over MSRP is price-gouging. MSRPs are invariably perfect and accurate numbers appointed by God (through the manufacturer) for the protection of the consumer.

Consider that the FX5200 still has a MSRP of 79.99 USD. Deep wisdom, indeed!


/reverse-psychology




P.S. No offense intended to any religion or to any religious persons.