This guy doesn't want you to blame him...

[AMDZen]

So I assume you live in the South OP?

 

[McLovin]

If it said, "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for Obama," I wouldn't find anything wrong. That's just a political view, and it isn't wrong for criticizing a political party if you don't agree with their views and actions. However, his shirt implies that the reason there is a problem is because Obama is black, and not white like the "other guy." That's a problem.

If you don't see a problem with that, you're probably racist as well, whether you realize it or not. Racism isn't a matter of how politely or callously you say it; believing that the social, economic, etc. problem with someone (or something) is related to, or directly caused by someone's race is racism by definition.



Thank you for proving my first post in this thread.

Glad to see I wasn't the only one lol.

If by south you mean Arizona, then yes.

 

[highland145]

If by south you mean Arizona, then yes.

 

[Ruptga]

It's really a freedom of speech issue. Once you start being outraged over a t-shirt slogan, the next step is to purpose legislation to ban such. We've already gone overboard with hate speech legislation, to the point that you will get less time for punching someone than you will for calling them a racial slur in many cases. God forbid your kid makes a gun our of a french fry in the school cafeteria. Aren't we going a bit overboard with our outrage?

Do you really want to go there? If not, then stop stirring the pot and ignore the guy and his ignorant shirt. We've got to accept (ignore) the bad speech if we want to protect the good speech, unless it really does directly incite people to break the law.

I see what your big-picture argument is, but I disagree with your slippery slope argument. Most people have a subject or five over which they love to get butthurt, or "righteously indignant." However, it seems like a bit of a leap to assume that we will want to criminalize everything we bitch about. For one thing, once that is done what will we have to bitch about? For another, "idiotic and valueless political commentary," and "racially insensitive graphic tees" are classes of speech that can only be defined subjectively and it is extremely unlikely that any court in any jurisdiction would uphold provisions against them even if they somehow made it through the local legislature.

School districts have clamped down on this sort of thing before, but they do it by banning any shirt with lettering. Trying to ban only "offensive" clothes turns into a huge CF for exactly the same reasons that that kind of ban would never survive a judicial review.

As for your main point of "we've got to accept (ignore) the bad speech if we want to protect the good speech, unless it really does directly incite people to break the law," I don't think that accepting bad speech's existence has to be the same thing as ignoring it. We all accept all kinds of injustices and waste every night by simply going to sleep instead of crusading until everything is fixed, but that doesn't mean we don't try to make it right in the morning. We can accept ignorant hateful speech's existence while still working to eliminate the thinking and attitudes that cause the speech. And, if we don't say anything when we see insane outliers (like in the OP), we run the risk of fringe insanity becoming accepted in everyday life. That doesn't mean we need to run those people out of town or even try to talk sense into them, but we can't go on like nothing happened either. They need to know they have a problem, and people that are content to follow need to know that sort of thinking is not ok to follow. (In before "thought police" and accusations of Fascism. Some thinking will obviously never be acceptable, examples: "I'm gonna skin that kid's hands because it'll look cool." "I'm gonna rape the next person to run down this trail." "I'm gonna burn city hall because they're dicks.")

 

[Mixolydian]

does he realize that both his undershirt and underwear are showing? :hmm:

 

[Sluggo]

I wanted to ask this guy why he felt it was appropriate, but I'm sure it would have ended badly.

Meaning what?

 

[Paladin3]

I see what your big-picture argument is, but I disagree with your slippery slope argument. Most people have a subject or five over which they love to get butthurt, or "righteously indignant." However, it seems like a bit of a leap to assume that we will want to criminalize everything we bitch about. For one thing, once that is done what will we have to bitch about? For another, "idiotic and valueless political commentary," and "racially insensitive graphic tees" are classes of speech that can only be defined subjectively and it is extremely unlikely that any court in any jurisdiction would uphold provisions against them even if they somehow made it through the local legislature.

School districts have clamped down on this sort of thing before, but they do it by banning any shirt with lettering. Trying to ban only "offensive" clothes turns into a huge CF for exactly the same reasons that that kind of ban would never survive a judicial review.

As for your main point of "we've got to accept (ignore) the bad speech if we want to protect the good speech, unless it really does directly incite people to break the law," I don't think that accepting bad speech's existence has to be the same thing as ignoring it. We all accept all kinds of injustices and waste every night by simply going to sleep instead of crusading until everything is fixed, but that doesn't mean we don't try to make it right in the morning. We can accept ignorant hateful speech's existence while still working to eliminate the thinking and attitudes that cause the speech. And, if we don't say anything when we see insane outliers (like in the OP), we run the risk of fringe insanity becoming accepted in everyday life. That doesn't mean we need to run those people out of town or even try to talk sense into them, but we can't go on like nothing happened either. They need to know they have a problem, and people that are content to follow need to know that sort of thinking is not ok to follow. (In before "thought police" and accusations of Fascism. Some thinking will obviously never be acceptable, examples: "I'm gonna skin that kid's hands because it'll look cool." "I'm gonna rape the next person to run down this trail." "I'm gonna burn city hall because they're dicks.")

Ignorant speech is a byproduct of a free society. We can only reduce it by teaching our children well and growing a new generation that doesn't think like that.

And I'm not sure what "crusading until everything is fixed" means. If that guy refuses to take off that shirt, or more importantly, change his racist way of thinking, what do we do then? How do we stop him? Pass more laws? Just what we need in a "free" society.

In a free society, people are free to believe what they want and express those ideas unless they are inciting lawlessness. And not just those ideas you agree with. Any call to crusade until everything is fixed is bound to lead to laws banning ideas and speech. I think we have enough already.

Not to mention, that shirt is the least of our concerns. It's the ones who don't advertise their ignorance that I worry about.

 

[T9D]

There is probably about 100,000 times more people who are liberals and democrats that do this stuff and everyone has had to put up with stuff like this for years. And it's always 10 times worse. So yeah seeing one on the other side it doesn't bother me so much.

 

[arkcom]

DOES THIS ASS MAKE MY TRUCK LOOK BIG? with a picture of Obama next to it.

At least this is kinda funny since the donkey is the Democrat party mascot and all.

 

[darkswordsman17]

It's really a freedom of speech issue. Once you start being outraged over a t-shirt slogan, the next step is to purpose legislation to ban such. We've already gone overboard with hate speech legislation, to the point that you will get less time for punching someone than you will for calling them a racial slur in many cases. God forbid your kid makes a gun our of a french fry in the school cafeteria. Aren't we going a bit overboard with our outrage?

Do you really want to go there? If not, then stop stirring the pot and ignore the guy and his ignorant shirt. We've got to accept (ignore) the bad speech if we want to protect the good speech, unless it really does directly incite people to break the law.

WTF, I'm just going to ignore your first part since its just idiotic complaining about going overboard when you just spout hyperbole. OP is just wondering what the person could be thinking by wearing such blatantly racist thing.

Stirring the pot? Are you fucking kidding? Yeah, its the OP stirring the pot...

No you don't. Your whole point is fucking stupid as he's partaking in free speech himself. I really hate people that use your argument. It is not impinging on someone's freedom of speech to say you think they're a fucking idiot for what they put out there, in fact you're exercising your own freedom of speech. Do you not understand that by saying the OP should just STFU and ignore it that you're telling him to do exactly what you're whining about?

 

[Crono]

I take T-shirt messages very seriously.

 

[McLovin]

Again, I'm not trying to impede on the fine gentleman's free speech, quite the contrary.

The only thing I questioned is the appropriateness in wearing a shirt like that in public. I liken that shirt to truck nutz. Someone has every right to put them on their vehicle, I just think it's distasteful.

I was always raised to have respect for my elders, people who were in positions of authority, especially people who were voted into an elected position. (Which can range from my parents, to police officers (which my dad was), and most even the President). There is, in my eyes, absolutely nothing wrong for openly disagreeing and disliking the political choices someone makes. My issue with the shirt was that he showed a lack of respect for someone who was put in there current position because a majority of his peers felt he was the best option, right or wrong, and that he didn't show any reason to dislike this person because of their political choices, but because of the color of his skin. I just feel that is wrong, that's all I was trying to say.

 

[lxskllr]

I was always raised to have respect for my elders and people who were in positions of authority (Which can range from my parents, to police officers (which my dad was), and even the President.)

OT, but respect has to be earned. No one gets respect for having certain employment, artificial stature, or chronological advancement. That mindset breeds subservience, and followers. The world needs more leaders, not followers.

 

[McLovin]

At least this is kinda funny since the donkey is the Democrat party mascot and all.

Which I do find the humor in and while I don't agree with it, I'm not gonna write my congressman/senator and ask them to pass a law banning clever, non-racist jokes because it might offend someone.

 

[McLovin]

OT, but respect has to be earned. No one gets respect for having certain employment, artificial stature, or chronological advancement. That mindset breeds subservience, and followers. The world needs more leaders, not followers.

You're absolutely right and I am not disagreeing with that either. To me it's just like being innocent until proven guilty. I give people benefit of the doubt until I have a reason not to. My boss has been in the workforce at least 15 years more than I have and I'm sure has at some point in his career, worked very hard to get where he is at. Now after working with him for 2 years I still cannot fathom how he got to his current position because he is very lazy and is not reliable in any sense and I have a lot less respect for him now than I did when I first started. But, I am not going to have a shirt made that says "Don't blame me, my boss is an idiot."

 

[SlitheryDee]

Again, I'm not trying to impede on the fine gentleman's free speech, quite the contrary.

The only thing I questioned is the appropriateness in wearing a shirt like that in public. I liken that shirt to truck nutz. Someone has every right to put them on their vehicle, I just think it's distasteful.

I was always raised to have respect for my elders, people who were in positions of authority, especially people who were voted into an elected position. (Which can range from my parents, to police officers (which my dad was), and most even the President). There is, in my eyes, absolutely nothing wrong for openly disagreeing and disliking the political choices someone makes. My issue with the shirt was that he showed a lack of respect for someone who was put in there current position because a majority of his peers felt he was the best option, right or wrong, and that he didn't show any reason to dislike this person because of their political choices, but because of the color of his skin. I just feel that is wrong, that's all I was trying to say.

I agree in principle that we should all feel free to criticize this or any other opinion we choose, but not for the reasons you're stating. That guy's shirt does show disrespect, but I don't see the reason to single out Obama as the only person being disrespected. It actually disrespects an entire race by implying that ANY black person would have been a poor choice for president compared to any white person. It's a pretty egregious statement to be making, but Obama's position as president doesn't make it especially insulting to him. Obama is just another person among an entire group that is being insulted.

It is wrong, but don't mix up the whole respecting authority aspect as a way to make it more wrong for one special case.

 

[Mixolydian]

OT, but respect has to be earned. No one gets respect for having certain employment, artificial stature, or chronological advancement. That mindset breeds subservience, and followers. The world needs more leaders, not followers.

I disagree. The leader of a country always deserves respect.

 

[lxskllr]

Y But, I am not going to have a shirt made that says "Don't blame me, my boss is an idiot."

I would, and lulz would be had by all :^D

My last boss was the best person I worked with in the field. He could be a real asshole, and was arrogant, but it was well earned. I've worked with people more educated, and with more time in the field, but no one came close in skill.

 

[lxskllr]

I disagree. The leader of a country always deserves respect.

I started to go on a rant earlier, but bailed. So, here it goes... Obama's a lying, traitorous piece of shit. He wouldn't know leadership if it hit him across his stupid face. I could hardly hold more contempt for another person. Respect? I wouldn't piss in his ear if his brain was on fire...

 

[Mixolydian]

I started to go on a rant earlier, but bailed. So, here it goes... Obama's a lying, traitorous piece of shit. He wouldn't know leadership if it hit him across his stupid face. I could hardly hold more contempt for another person. Respect? I wouldn't piss in his ear if his brain was on fire...

Doesn't matter how much you agree or disagree with their politics, you should always have respect for the person running your country. Respect is not the same as "liking" a person.

 

[McLovin]

I started to go on a rant earlier, but bailed. So, here it goes... Obama's a lying, traitorous piece of shit. He wouldn't know leadership if it hit him across his stupid face. I could hardly hold more contempt for another person. Respect? I wouldn't piss in his ear if his brain was on fire...

The difference is, you don't like him because of his personal and political choices, not because he is black.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Doesn't matter how much you agree or disagree with their politics, you should always have respect for the person running your country. Respect is not the same as "liking" a person.

How can you believe that? We elect presidents essentially in the same way that people vote for the winner of American Idol. A bunch of idiots pressed a button in a voting booth and now he's president. That's no basis for respect of any kind IMO. I'm not nearly as mad at Obama as lxskllr is, but even I see that.

 

[lxskllr]

Doesn't matter how much you agree or disagree with their politics, you should always have respect for the person running your country. Respect is not the same as "liking" a person.

So if Stalin became leader of the US, I should respect him?! That's being a subservient bitch. Respect is earned based on your character and deeds, nothing else. Anything else is religious voodoo. Performing rituals to please the gods.

 

[McLovin]

I would, and lulz would be had by all :^D

My last boss was the best person I worked with in the field. He could be a real asshole, and was arrogant, but it was well earned. I've worked with people more educated, and with more time in the field, but no one came close in skill.

I agree and the prevailing opinion around the office is the same as mine.

I would, like you, much rather deal with an asshole who is arrogant, but gets the job done effectively instead of what I currently deal with.

 

[SAWYER]

Im sure you were up in arms about Clinton/Bush etc bashing shirts, stickers as well right?