This Christanity thing is confusing.

[Paladin3]

Oh, yes. A few billion other people aren't, though. Your concern is noted.

I still find it amazing that you can call the religious beliefs of billions of people delusions, but firmly believe your particular version of how the universe and man's existence works to be "a natural law, just like gravity or the fine structure constant; when you leave the material body there are no more delusions..."

How did you arrive at these facts? Where is the evidence of anything beyond death? How can you be so sure anyone will "suffer for worshiping a devil" without strong evidence? You are no better than those who say the Bible is true because it says so within it's own pages. You simply have your own religion that relies on faith rather than evidence just as much as Christianity does.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Because my girlfriend's been dead and I've had evidential communication with a grandfather who died before I was born, that's how. Half of what he said made no damn sense until I asked other family members about it, and it included a catchphrase of his I'd never heard. And the communication took place over 1,100 miles from where he lived.

Karma of a sort is real. And it's a bitch.

 

[Paladin3]

Because my girlfriend's been dead and I've had evidential communication with a grandfather who died before I was born, that's how. Half of what he said made no damn sense until I asked other family members about it, and it included a catchphrase of his I'd never heard. And the communication took place over 1,100 miles from where he lived.

Karma of a sort is real. And it's a bitch.

Sorry if I don't consider any of that evidence. It's kind of like when I ask Christians how they know God/Jesus is real and I get "I was praying hard asking for help and suddenly felt all my burden lifted from my soul. Suddenly it became so clear to me and I just knew the truth."

[potentially hurtful comments deleted.]

I'm in no way championing any religion, just trying to get the point across that yours is as ridiculous as the rest, IMHO.

 

[ch33zw1z]

YHO noted. To compare what science has shown us with what man conjured up to explain it before we had modern science is foolish.

Science doesn't work that way. Scientists don't claim to have all the answers, but will continue to search.

 

[ryzenmaster]

I'd love to hear an intelligent, educated Christian (does such a thing even exist?)

Of course they exist. You can be highly educated and still shut down all critical thinking when it comes to specific topics like religion. In fact smart people are good at coming up with excuses to justify foolish positions. While there does seem to be some correlation between religiosity and level of education, it may well be the case that for many people no amount of education will help them overcome lifetime of religious upbringing and proselytization.

My extended family is full of conservative christians, many of whom have university degrees in engineering and medicine etc. By no means would I call those people stupid, but I do think they are wrong when it comes to religion.

 

[Darwin333]

Because my girlfriend's been dead and I've had evidential communication with a grandfather who died before I was born, that's how. Half of what he said made no damn sense until I asked other family members about it, and it included a catchphrase of his I'd never heard. And the communication took place over 1,100 miles from where he lived.

Karma of a sort is real. And it's a bitch.

Sorry bud but unlike in a courtroom, in the realm of science eyewitness evidence is basically zero evidence.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Oh, I agree, and it's one reason I'm not, for example, starting a church. This is sufficient evidence for me, but I won't expect anyone else to be convinced since it doesn't speak directly to them.

The good news is, there's no "turn or burn" coercion involved here. What matters is what you do, not what you believe.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Of course they exist. You can be highly educated and still shut down all critical thinking when it comes to specific topics like religion. In fact smart people are good at coming up with excuses to justify foolish positions. While there does seem to be some correlation between religiosity and level of education, it may well be the case that for many people no amount of education will help them overcome lifetime of religious upbringing and proselytization.

My extended family is full of conservative christians, many of whom have university degrees in engineering and medicine etc. By no means would I call those people stupid, but I do think they are wrong when it comes to religion.

You and I have very different definitions of intelligence. If you believe in unicorns, young Earth, the lost continent of Atlantis, biblical creationism, a cow jumping over the moon, telekinesis, invisible men in the sky or anything else with zero evidence to support it you have some intelligence deficiencies no matter how well you manage to do on math tests. With intelligence should come skepticism and the ability to separate fact from fantasy.

The comment I made that you quoted was in regard to the inability of Christians to adequately explain their belief in both determinism and "free will" and their acceptance of a god that supposedly controls all yet is thwarted at every turn by the free will of mortals. Ask them to explain that to you and I think you'll see some gaping holes in that illusion of intelligence.

 

[Thebobo]

Understanding Christianity is easy with this great new tool!

Despicable money grabbing hypocrites.

 

[disappoint]

Because my girlfriend's been dead and I've had evidential communication with a grandfather who died before I was born, that's how. Half of what he said made no damn sense until I asked other family members about it, and it included a catchphrase of his I'd never heard. And the communication took place over 1,100 miles from where he lived.

Karma of a sort is real. And it's a bitch.

How did you communicate with a grandfather who died before you were born?

Isn't it possible you heard the catchphrase from someone else in the family who is still alive but forgot you heard it? It could have been stored in your mind without your awareness. There have been demonstrations of this phenomenon before.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Medium, one of the few I've ever met who seems not to be a fraud. I came under false pretenses, asking her to talk to my dead mother (still very much alive) and dead daughter (never had kids). We'd never met, and this is over 1,100 miles away from where my entire family lives.

She tried to contact them for a bit, went all funny, and then said "Your mother is fine, and I don't think you have a daughter. I do have a message from someone on your father's side, though. A grandfather or an uncle maybe." She proceeded to describe someone who looked like my father's older brother who had just died a couple of years ago, and says the message was (and this is almost word for word, it is burned into my memory):

"You know, I'm not a tennis shoes kind of person, but you could have dressed a little better for this. Now, listen: you're like me, you want to know about everything. This interest in religion skips a generation though, which is why you can't talk to your parents about the things you're learning. but you're making yourself sick and worrying over nothing. You've got to stop studying so hard and get out in nature more."

To put it mildly I was confused, because I knew nothing about him and never thought of him as a particularly studious person; he supposedly repaired typewriters, fridges, etc. for a living and the way my mother described him when I asked he was very close-minded and provincial.

But after this, I called her to ask about what had happened, and she sounded more than a little spooked out. She told me he used to say "not a tennis shoes kind of person" a lot in the 70s because he disapproved of my father and said uncle playing tennis, thinking it was elitist and effete. And, as it turns out, he actually was into the study of religion quite a bit, but in a rather narrow way. Although Jewish by upbringing, she says he converted to UU late in life, and was absolutely obsessed with this book whose title I forget the name of that was trying to explore Jewish mysticism.

So...yeah. I don't know how else to explain this. There are only two explanations: either this lady is the real deal, or there is some demon that just happens to possess her, is able to read minds AND knows my family history, and specifically put these words in her head when she was in trance for the sole purpose of messing with my head.

Make of this what you will. Me, between this and my girlfriend's accounts of drawing Buddhist hells at age 3 with herself in them and scaring the shit out of the local bonzes, I'm convinced. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for all this; it's just not a branch of science we've explored well yet, is all.

 

[disappoint]

Medium, one of the few I've ever met who seems not to be a fraud. I came under false pretenses, asking her to talk to my dead mother (still very much alive) and dead daughter (never had kids). We'd never met, and this is over 1,100 miles away from where my entire family lives.

Wow that's spooky! But not as spooky as quantum entanglement, especially because the latter is real.
More on that here if you're interested: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...want-to-understand-quantum-mechanics.2510440/

Sorry, shameless plug for that thread but it's lonely in D.C.

Now about your interesting encounter with a Medium. Mediums and psychics are highly skilled people that can indeed "read minds". I know because I've sort of done it myself. Though not for a living.

Since you were kind enough to share your story, and I do appreciate that, I shall do the same.

One day my father was reading Bon Appetit magazine. He mumbled something about chicken. I said "You reading about a chicken recipe?" He looked perplexed. He looked at the cover to see there was nothing about chicken there and said: "Yeah, but how did you know?" I said: "Because you told me." He said: "I didn't tell you."

He was completely unaware that he mumbled the word chicken because he was engrossed* in reading and thinking about it.

Mediums and psychics pay very close attention to the subconscious signals you're giving off all the time. You are totally unaware of these signals you give off. I'm not at all as surprised as you are that they were easily able to see through your false pretenses because they can tell when you're lying. It may not seem easy to you but neither would any other skill someone has spent years perfecting, like playing a musical instrument with great skill for example.

One common technique they use is they tell you to think of the person's name over and over again in your mind but don't say it out loud. When you do that you subconsciously make micro movements of the muscles in your face that they can see and determine what you're thinking. It's not as much reading your mind as reading you, though it seems to a person unaware of these techniques as their mind being read. Your whole body gives off a ton of information you're unaware of, and you might be surprised how many people know how to read those signals. Now that's spooky! And more importantly, real.

*One of the ways you can prevent yourself from being fooled is to prevent yourself from being too "entranced, engrossed or focused" on one thing to the exclusion of everything else around you. The other is to be educated more on the topic, which I hope this post can serve as a catalyst for.

 

[lxskllr]

A long time ago, a guy I worked with lent me a book on pyramidology(you may now roll your eyes), and *really* wanted me to read it, so I did... Even if you took the base as factual, it was contradicted later in the book. I was angry when I finished it. For something that purports to be non fiction, it had little consistency chapter to chapter. That's what the bible's like. If you aren't angry, you weren't paying attention.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

@disappoint, come on now, that wasn't even close to addressing the content of what i posted. There is information in there she could not possibly have had any way of knowing save for something even less likely and more freaky-deeky than "this woman actually is talking to my grandfather." The very fact that half of it didn't make sense, but was corroborated later, is the killer here.

 

[disappoint]

A long time ago, a guy I worked with lent me a book on pyramidology(you may now roll your eyes), and *really* wanted me to read it, so I did... Even if you took the base as factual, it was contradicted later in the book. I was angry when I finished it. For something that purports to be non fiction, it had little consistency chapter to chapter. That's what the bible's like. If you aren't angry, you weren't paying attention.

Haha! Have you read Dianetics yet? Oh you must give it a go, it's a beaut. If I remember correctly within the first few pages I was spotting the classic technique of pacing and leading. I thought, so this is how they got so many people hooked on this stuff!

By the way pacing and leading for those that don't know is the phenomenon where if you make enough factual statements in a row the human mind tends to turn off it's critical thinking factor and when a lie is slipped in it's believed by the (in this case) reader. Of course it doesn't work if you know to look for it so obviously it didn't work on me.

 

[lxskllr]

Haha! Have you read Dianetics yet? Oh you must give it a go, it's a beaut. If I remember correctly within the first few pages I was spotting the classic technique of pacing and leading. I thought, so this is how they got so many people hooked on this stuff!

By the way pacing and leading for those that don't know is the phenomenon where if you make enough factual statements in a row the human mind tends to turn off it's critical thinking factor and when a lie is slipped in it's believed by the (in this case) reader. Of course it doesn't work if you know to look for it so obviously it didn't work on me.

I don't have a lot of patience for bullshit, but I do appreciate a well told story that may not have a lot of basis in fact. Take "true" ghost stories. I don't really believe in them, but I like a story that leaves you thinking hmm... Consistency throughout, and no glaring errors. When you tell me something is one thing and later tell me it's something else, I get pissed. The bible stories aren't even particularly good as fiction. They're boring and repetitive. Norse and Greek mythology are much better.

 

[disappoint]

@disappoint, come on now, that wasn't even close to addressing the content of what i posted. There is information in there she could not possibly have had any way of knowing save for something even less likely and more freaky-deeky than "this woman actually is talking to my grandfather." The very fact that half of it didn't make sense, but was corroborated later, is the killer here.

I've been told I'm wrong before. I'm used to it. 😉

This reminds me of a story I just now made up based on a similar one by Aesop.

There once was a lady named Aluma Kazumi. She was walking along a path when she came upon some grapes high up on a branch. She was quite hungry so she decided to stop a while and have a snack. Unfortunately she was unable to reach the grapes no matter how hard she tried. They were just too high. She finally gave up and kept walking along the path.

She then came upon a fellow named Mediu Priestley. The two met and after introductions chatted for a bit. Mediu said "Why do you look so glum?" Aluma said: "Well there were some grapes back there and I couldn't reach them, and I was so looking forward to having some." Mediu said: "Oh, is that all? Well those grapes were probably sour anyway." Aluma said, "Yeah you know you're probably right!" Feeling better at this point the two parted company and Aluma continued down the path on to her date with her boyfriend.

Before reaching her destination however, she received a phone call from her boyfriend's mother with the terrible news. Her boyfriend had passed away due to a sudden heart attack. She was in total shock. She couldn't believe he was taken from her so suddenly.

A few days later she met with Mediu Priestley again and once again Mediu recognized something was wrong. "Now you look even more glum than before! What's the matter?" said Mediu. Aluma let him know of the dire news. "I will miss him forever, how can I go on without him?"

Mediu said: "Oh don't worry about that! He never really died. You see I'm a priest and I know for a fact that the human body is just a vessel for the soul. He is still alive somewhere up there beyond the grapes and beyond the clouds, and you will be with him once again someday!"

Well this made Aluma feel much better. She said "Hey when I talk to you I feel better every time. How can I thank you?"

"Oh you don't need to thank me just come by the church and give to the poor. You can give it to me and I'll see that they get some of it."

Aluma did so and they both lived happily ever after.

The End.

 

[lxskllr]

I've been told I'm wrong before. I'm used to it. 😉

This reminds me of a story I just now made up based on a similar one by Aesop.

There once was a lad named Akuma Kazumi. He was walking along a path when he came upon some grapes high up on a branch. He was quite hungry so he decided to stop a while and have a snack. Unfortunately he was unable to reach the grapes no matter how hard he tried. They were just too high. He finally gave up and kept walking along the path.

He then came upon a fellow named Mediu Priestley. The two met and after introductions chatted for a bit. Mediu said "Why do you look so glum, chum?" Akuma said: "Well there were some grapes back there and I couldn't reach them, and I was so looking forward to having some." Mediu said: "Oh, is that all? Well those grapes were probably sour anyway." Akuma said, "Yeah you know you're probably right!" Feeling better at this point the two parted company and Akuma continued down the path on to his date with his girlfriend.

Before reaching his destination however, he received a phone call from his girlfriend's mother with the terrible news. His girlfriend had passed away due to a sudden heart attack. He was in total shock. He couldn't believe she was taken from him so suddenly.

A few days later he met with Mediu Priestley again and once again Mediu recognized something was wrong. "Now you look even more glum than before! What's the matter?" said Mediu. Akuma let him know of the dire news. "I will miss her forever, how can I go on without her?"

Mediu said: "Oh don't worry about that! She never really died. You see I'm a priest and I know for a fact that the human body is just a vessel for the soul. She is still alive somewhere up there beyond the grapes and beyond the clouds, and you will be with her once again someday!"

Well this made Akuma feel much better. He said "Hey when I talk to you I feel better every time. How can I thank you?"

"Oh you don't need to thank me just come by the church and give to the poor. You can give it to me and I'll see that they get some of it."

Akuma did so and they both lived happily ever after.

The End.

Sniff... That's a lovely story, and you tell it so well. Sniff...

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Tell me, do you speak Japanese? Because "Akuma" means "evil demon" and I'd really appreciate not being called that. And I'm a woman, thank you so very much. If you must know my name is Marissa.

The rest of your post, again, does not address the information contained within mine. This is someone who had access to information I didn't have about my own long-dead family members.

I realize these things make you uncomfortable. Heaven knows (hah...) I wish they weren't true; life would be much easier for me if I were an atheist and believed that the death of the physical body ended it all; I'm so very, very tired, and no amount of sleep seems to fix that. But I can go only on what I've experienced.

The kind of response you gave, it length, its bitterness, and its mocking, all speak to the idea that this stuff frightens you. If it helps, there doesn't seem to be anything to be afraid of for anyone who lives a decent life.

 

[lxskllr]

Tell me, do you speak Japanese? Because "Akuma" means "evil demon" and I'd really appreciate not being called that.

That's a bitchin' name. I wish I was called Akuma :^(

 

[BudAshes]

All I know is that these smoothies full of Rhino Horn and Tiger penis have made me INVINCIBLE according to my astrologer/family wizard.

 

[disappoint]

Sniff... That's a lovely story, and you tell it so well. Sniff...

Thank you. I should have elaborated more but I wanted to keep it short so people won't be intimidated by a lengthy post and choose not to read it.

The moral of the story of course is that when someone wants something (grapes) or someone (a loved one) but can't have them this sets up something called cognitive dissonance in the mind which is (emotionally) painful. The mind will, unlike in the story, even without anyone's help (priest in this case) use it's amazing defense mechanisms to alleviate that pain by making something up. In the case of the grapes that they are probably sour, even though there is no way of knowing that. They may in fact be delicious. In the case of lost loved ones that they are not actually gone.

It may very likely be the case that religion did not start out as a way to make money off of people by intentionally BSing them but as a natural defense mechanism doing it's thing. Then some ahem...let's call them entrepreneurs, decided to make a business out of it.

Tell me, do you speak Japanese? Because "Akuma" means "evil demon" and I'd really appreciate not being called that. And I'm a woman, thank you so very much. If you must know my name is Marissa.

The rest of your post, again, does not address the information contained within mine. This is someone who had access to information I didn't have about my own long-dead family members.

I realize these things make you uncomfortable. Heaven knows (hah...) I wish they weren't true; life would be much easier for me if I were an atheist and believed that the death of the physical body ended it all; I'm so very, very tired, and no amount of sleep seems to fix that. But I can go only on what I've experienced.

The kind of response you gave, it length, its bitterness, and its mocking, all speak to the idea that this stuff frightens you. If it helps, there doesn't seem to be anything to be afraid of for anyone who lives a decent life.

I'm sorry Marissa. I did not intend to insult you but instead educate you. I do not speak Japanese and did not know Akuma meant evil demon. I came up with Akuma by changing one letter in your username Azuma, and it's quite unfortunate I chose the wrong one! I don't think you are an evil demon at all. I have no ill will toward you.

I am not uncomfortable talking about this stuff. If I were I just wouldn't talk about it at all and go do something else.

I'm sorry to hear you are very, very tired and that sleep is not able to alleviate that. Do you have nightmares sometimes?

I'm not frightened by anything I've posted or anything you posted. If I were I wouldn't be here posting about it. I'd go do something that doesn't frighten me.

I like trying to teach people because it's fun and I think some people can benefit from it.

Again I'm sorry about the Akuma mix up and I'll change it right away.

Note to self: If I ever write a book make sure the fictional names don't mean something in another language first!

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

The outward appearance of civility does not hide the corruption within. And the patronizing is reaching levels that are making my slappin' hand itch.

None of your replies addressed the following:

1) This person was somehow privy to information I myself did not have...
2) ...which was corroborated when I asked older family members...
3) ...over a thousand miles away and 30 years distant from the events in question.
4) She was also able to figure out I was there on false pretenses
5) And she accurately described another relative, in this case my grandfather's eldest son, my uncle

Look, I don't like this either. Contrary to your patronizing assumptions up above, I do not like the idea of existence continuing on after the death of the physical body. And vengeful as I may seem, I would exchange any ideas of karma or justice in a heartbeat for the sure and certain knowledge that when I die, I am gone.

It just seems not to be the case. And since it's not, I have to prepare to fight and survive for an indefinite period of time. There will be no rest for me.

 

[BudAshes]

The outward appearance of civility does not hide the corruption within. And the patronizing is reaching levels that are making my slappin' hand itch.

None of your replies addressed the following:

1) This person was somehow privy to information I myself did not have...
2) ...which was corroborated when I asked older family members...
3) ...over a thousand miles away and 30 years distant from the events in question.
4) She was also able to figure out I was there on false pretenses
5) And she accurately described another relative, in this case my grandfather's eldest son, my uncle

Look, I don't like this either. Contrary to your patronizing assumptions up above, I do not like the idea of existence continuing on after the death of the physical body. And vengeful as I may seem, I would exchange any ideas of karma or justice in a heartbeat for the sure and certain knowledge that when I die, I am gone.

It just seems not to be the case. And since it's not, I have to prepare to fight and survive for an indefinite period of time. There will be no rest for me.

Eternity's a bitch and you never die.

But you could just be making this up to impress the stud muffins of atot.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Well, "you" do die, if I understand this right, in the sense that we're supposed to just sort of dissolve back into "God" or "the Source." Then again, "you" die every time the body does, and we're not supposed to reincarnate; it's like getting left back a grade.