Thinking of upgrading my WHS2011 box, what cpu?

sep

Platinum Member
Aug 1, 2001
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I'm currently running my server on a Conroe E6750 with 4GB of RAM and 6 drives. The server is used to host two VirtualBox-Machines running WinXP, backup workstations & stream/host music/movies. It handles these tasks just fine as long as the VM are basic. I see the memory is maxed out and don't want to invest in more memory for this setup. So I'm looking to upgrade my hardware (MB,CPU,RAM). These are the CPU's I'm looking at using.

Do you think the cheapest cpu will do the job?

With only two VM's do I care about VT-x, AES-NI, etc?

G850 $70
G640T or this one but Not Available?

i3-3220T $120
i3-3240T or this one but Not Available?

i5-3550S $200
i5-3470T or this one but Not Available?

With the ASRock H77 Pro4-M motherboard...for now.
 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,889
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I'm currently running my server on a Conroe E6750 with 4GB of RAM and 6 drives. The server is used to host two VirtualBox-Machines running WinXP, backup workstations & stream/host music/movies. It handles these tasks just fine as long as the VM are basic. I see the memory is maxed out and don't want to invest in more memory for this setup. So I'm looking to upgrade my hardware (MB,CPU,RAM). These are the CPU's I'm looking at using.

Do you think the cheapest cpu will do the job?

With only two VM's do I care about VT-x, AES-NI, etc?

G850 $70
G640T or this one but Not Available?

i3-3220T $120
i3-3240T or this one but Not Available?

i5-3550S $200
i5-3470T or this one but Not Available?

With the ASRock H77 Pro4-M motherboard...for now.

Whoa! I'm actually upgrading to WHS 2011 to install on a lesser processor than you had -- an E6600. Had to catch-up-refresh myself about VirtualBox. That's something I'm not going to to.

I couldn't tell you what processor to pick, except that four cores would certainly give you what you need. I'll leave this to someone else . . . !!
 
Feb 25, 2011
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i3 w/ hyperthreading and VT-x. My experience is that VT-x makes things work more the way they ought to, lets you assign multiple cores to a VM, etc., so I'd probably want to use it.

I'd also really suggest storing your VMs on an SSD if at all possible.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Why the focus on S and T models? They are basicly only good for limited cooling solutions.

I would pick a i3 3220/3225. No T or S.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
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I just bought a Gigabyte motherboard, an i3 3220 and 32 GB of RAM. I'm running ESXi 5.1, with a 2008R2 domain controller, Win7 "jump box" for access from the Internet, an Ubuntu 12.04 minecraft server, a temporary vCenter Server to help migrate from my old ESXi4.1 box and I plan to run two NetApp ONTAP 8.1.1 C-Mode simulators, a Server 2012 Core installation and Ubuntu 12.04 LTS (desktop) whenever I get around to building them.
 

sep

Platinum Member
Aug 1, 2001
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BonzaiDuck - You will be fine on that processor.

dave_the_nerd - Yeah, I'm thinking at least the i3 core since I'll be running VM on this box. The vm's will be upgraded to Win7 or Win8 so more cpu's would be good.

ShintaiDK - The T models offer lower watts. Server is on 24x7 so I was looking at it from the green side.

Jeff7181 - Win7 jump box?
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
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Why wouldn't you just install hyper-v 2008r2 or 2k12 and install your Operating Systems on top of that?

The i3 is not powerful enough of a CPU to do what you're wanting. At least it would not meet my performance needs. Real CPU cores > HT in virtualization.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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ShintaiDK - The T models offer lower watts. Server is on 24x7 so I was looking at it from the green side.
Lower total power, at the cost of maximum performance. Historically, such parts have not done any better at active low power states, so you are giving up hundreds of MHz that could be used in a pinch. Most of the time, the CPU will be in a lower-power state, and a CPU that can go faster will spend more time in those lower idle states.

The i3 is not powerful enough of a CPU to do what you're wanting. At least it would not meet my performance needs. Real CPU cores > HT in virtualization.
The OP stated that the C2D was doing a good enough job, except for using all its RAM, which is why we're not worrying much over that.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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Go for lowest idle power, and if it's important to you (which imho it should be if you are going for high uptime like 24/7 or something), go for ECC RAM.

This basically means either doing it the cheap and dirty AMD style or buying higher-priced mobos and Xeons (though I hear that some Core i3s can use ECC even though Intel explicitly denies it in some of their spec sheets... heck, you can find pre-made microservers from vendors like Fujitsu that pair Core i3's with ECC memory so it must be doable). If you go the AMD route, get an "e" processor. E.g., Athlon II X2 240e, Athlon II X2 605e, etc. Those are factory-binned and undervolted and have decent idle power draw. Yeah you can do it yourself if you have a mobo capable of undervolting, but I'd rather get a binned CPU for not that much more in price and not have to mess with a ton of testing.
 
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Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
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Jeff7181 - Win7 jump box?

I only allow RDP to that single VM from outside my firewall (I use Astaro, now called Sophos UTM). From there I can remote into any other VM's or physical machines on my network.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
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My server is not running ecc and runs 24x7 without issues. What is ECC going to offer me?

Absolutely nothing. There seems to be a few people under the impression that there are frequent memory errors that ECC will correct, who are spreading this FUD around here. It's simply not true. It exists in the server world because if something were to happen, it could mean hours worth of lost work and money. In the consumer space, you're fooling yourself if you think ECC RAM is going to do anything for you besides make your wallet slightly lighter.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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My server is not running ecc and runs 24x7 without issues. What is ECC going to offer me?
Greater assurance that such a statement is true. Without ECC, you won't know if your DIMMs are among the 8%.

Absolutely nothing. There seems to be a few people under the impression that there are frequent memory errors that ECC will correct, who are spreading this FUD around here. It's simply not true. It exists in the server world because if something were to happen, it could mean hours worth of lost work and money. In the consumer space, you're fooling yourself if you think ECC RAM is going to do anything for you besides make your wallet slightly lighter.
It offers exactly the same thing it offers in the server space: potential knowledge that an error occurred, if it has occurred. It can be worthwhile for the exact same reason: you consider your data's correctness more valuable than the marginal cost of the RAM and a supporting board.

Whether it is worth it or not is an entirely different issue, but that it offers nothing for anyone not running a business is hand-waiving away basic computing desires, like correctness, which are handled reasonably well for everything but RAM, in a consumer PC.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
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Greater assurance that such a statement is true. Without ECC, you won't know if your DIMMs are among the 8%.

It offers exactly the same thing it offers in the server space: potential knowledge that an error occurred, if it has occurred. It can be worthwhile for the exact same reason: you consider your data's correctness more valuable than the marginal cost of the RAM and a supporting board.

Whether it is worth it or not is an entirely different issue, but that it offers nothing for anyone not running a business is hand-waiving away basic computing desires, like correctness, which are handled reasonably well for everything but RAM, in a consumer PC.

Seeking out consumer hardware that supports ECC is, in my opinion, useless. If you have a legitimate need for the maximum amount of data integrity that you can afford, then sure, go for it. But if you actually have such a need, chances are you're not exactly buying consumer level parts anyway. Recommending everyone buy ECC is for the most part, ridiculous.

I see more memory failures at work than I see at home (because I've never seen a memory failure at home) and everything in our data center uses ECC memory. So ECC isn't magic, and it only protects against a specific failure mode, which is arguably not the most common.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Seeking out consumer hardware that supports ECC is, in my opinion, useless. If you have a legitimate need for the maximum amount of data integrity that you can afford, then sure, go for it. But if you actually have such a need, chances are you're not exactly buying consumer level parts anyway. Recommending everyone buy ECC is for the most part, ridiculous.
That was blastingcap (though the guy in my sig also seems to be for it, and several AT forum members--there have been several whole threads about this issue). My file server is running without ECC RAM, and I'm not likely to be changing that any time soon :awe:.

I see more memory failures at work than I see at home (because I've never seen a memory failure at home) and everything in our data center uses ECC memory. So ECC isn't magic, and it only protects against a specific failure mode, which is arguably not the most common.
It protects against undetected errors of at least 1 bit in the RAM chips, or on the bus, when reading or writing. SATA CRCs aren't magic, either, nor PCI CRCs, nor PCIe CRCs, etc., and most of the time mismatches are exceedingly rare, too (but they have them, so that an error can be known). The small data chunk size, and industry's byte alignment of RAM makes it a kind of happy accident that fitting correction codes takes about as many bits as good parity. DDR4 will go quite a ways towards making things better w/o using ECC RAM (it will leave errors on read possible, IIRC), but DDR3 makes it a simpler issue: no parity, data ECC, or full ECC.

Personally, I'm more concerned about my desktop lacking it than my file server lacking it; and that is a real home user/business user difference, in that the server mostly just sits on data--corruption, should it ever occur, would be thousands, maybe millions, of times more likely on my desktop, and today it would be cheap to prevent ($100-200 more, last time I checked). And, if I can be fairly sure my desktop's data is good, checking against server data is a snap (in fact, I've already got that almost entirely automated).
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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Seeking out consumer hardware that supports ECC is, in my opinion, useless. If you have a legitimate need for the maximum amount of data integrity that you can afford, then sure, go for it. But if you actually have such a need, chances are you're not exactly buying consumer level parts anyway. Recommending everyone buy ECC is for the most part, ridiculous.

I see more memory failures at work than I see at home (because I've never seen a memory failure at home) and everything in our data center uses ECC memory. So ECC isn't magic, and it only protects against a specific failure mode, which is arguably not the most common.

Absolutely nothing. There seems to be a few people under the impression that there are frequent memory errors that ECC will correct, who are spreading this FUD around here. It's simply not true. It exists in the server world because if something were to happen, it could mean hours worth of lost work and money. In the consumer space, you're fooling yourself if you think ECC RAM is going to do anything for you besides make your wallet slightly lighter.



Who said ECC is magic? Why are you putting words into other people's mouths/beating strawmen? ECC is another layer of protection that isn't that expensive to implement in the grand scheme of things. If your willingness to pay is basically zero, then don't use ECC. For those of us who aren't destitute, it may make sense to use ECC.

Forgive me if I don't care at all that your large work server farm gets more errors than the ones you may or may not even detect, at home. One is much larger than the other, operates 24/7, and has ECC and probably other redundancies; the other is tiny, probably doesn't operate as actively 24/7, and has no ECC... are you even being serious here? I can't tell. This reminds me of a thread I saw once where a guy who allegedly works in IT says he has never seen memory errors in the 1000 machines he oversees in 15 years, or some b.s. like that. I feel sorry for the company that hired him, because anyone with an ounce of common sense knows how improbable that his.

And your statement about how only businesses need ECC is laughable. I agree with Cerb on this one. If your data corruption manages to get permanent, you may lose some priceless photos or something else. Ask around, there are people here who got their honeymoon photos corrupted, etc. It does happen sometimes. I can't agree with anyone who thinks consumer data protection is a needless luxury not worth protecting.

When Intel and AMD started packing ECC on their CPUs (and note that DIMMS can be viewed as L4 cache--so why not have ECC on that too? why make it the weakest link in the chain?), that speaks for itself. There will come a day when ECC DIMMs are standard because you just can't get away with NOT having it forever. Even today, there are corner cases that are soft error magnets. Think about a laptop with 16GB RAM on a long international flight at high altitudes. More likely than not, the user will get at LEAST one soft error. It's probably relatively harmless, but there's also a chance that it is very critical. Multiply that by enough trips over a year. Do you begin to see the problem here? And that's with current tech; as memory node sizes shrink even as DIMM capacity rises, it will get worse.

To repeat: if you don't want to pay for it in the meantime because you value your data integrity so little that you aren't willing to pay even a little extra for it, then that's your right. You probably don't think ZFS is worth it over NTFS, and you probably think RAID-5 is enough for large arrays, and you probably think a lot of things that used to be true but aren't as true anymore as the quantity of memory and storage has exponentially risen even as error rates have not declined per byte. There are others here who think that paying a little extra is worth it, though. You can get new microservers with ECC RAM for so cheap these days that I don't think it's unaffordable for most people. I got a brand-new MX130 S2 for under $150, and if I can sell the hard drive for anything, then it'll be even less. It's really the non-prebuilt Intel servers that get expensive, but even then, you can buy refurbs or used parts if necessary (though I would not--kind of defeats the purpose of trying in increase reliability to buy stuff off ebay or CL). Some of the prebuilt Intel microservers are somewhat reasonably priced if you want slightly lower power consumption. And you could also get a N40L if you just need a file server. All of them come with ECC standard.

My server is not running ecc and runs 24x7 without issues. What is ECC going to offer me?

Google for "silent data corruption." Just because you are not aware of any issues doesn't mean they don't exist. Silent data corruption does happen from time to time.
 
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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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Wow the ECC hate is strong on this forum now.

Its down to your board.. will it support ECC or not.
If not the arguement is moot, u cant support ECC so why bother arguing?

If your board can support ECC, its a enterprise series board, and its gonna require a Xeon unless were talking OG i7, which can handle both.

ECC... meh... its a layer of protection, like insurance... u may or may not need it in the life of the machine.

When it works, you'll be going THANK GOD...
When u dont have it, and something fails, you'll think SHIT i should of gotten it.
When u have it, and never use it, you'll think FAQ why did i spend so much money on it?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Wow the ECC hate is strong on this forum now.

Its down to your board.. will it support ECC or not.
If not the arguement is moot, u cant support ECC so why bother arguing?

If your board can support ECC, its a enterprise series board, and its gonna require a Xeon unless were talking OG i7, which can handle both.

ECC... meh... its a layer of protection, like insurance... u may or may not need it in the life of the machine.

When it works, you'll be going THANK GOD...
When u dont have it, and something fails, you'll think SHIT i should of gotten it.
When u have it, and never use it, you'll think FAQ why did i spend so much money on it?

I wouldn't call it hate, I just think it's ridiculous for people to suggest that someone buying new hardware for a home server seek out ECC memory. Your options become quite a bit more limited with the ECC requirement with respect to memory, CPU and mainboard choices. If the components you want support ECC, go ahead and use it... hell go ahead and buy components specifically because they support it. I don't really care. I just think it's a misguided effort and bad advice to give someone who's asking for help. You're much better off spending additional money on redundant storage.
 

sep

Platinum Member
Aug 1, 2001
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Thanks for the rant about ecc ram but my question on the topic CPU was what CPU based one the tasks I have outlined. What it looks like the is the minimum I should use is the i3 because it support the same features as the CPU I am using. If. Want to take advantage of other features like vt-i aen-in ecc ram I should go with a higher CPU and mb.