Things not going well for Boeing

[Martin]

Today they announced that they will be delaying the first test flight by several weeks, causing their share price to fall a fair bit:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com...flight/article1193365/


A few days ago I ran across this longer and more detailed article of what exactly went wrong for Boeing: http://www.portfolio.com/busin...nd-Dreamliner-Troubles

Basically, their double gamble of new technology and highly outsourced design and manufacturing work and over-reliance on partners meant they could not control quality or time-lines and the project is now years behind. They better hope Airbus screws up with the A350, otherwise they'll be faced with stiff competition (A350's maiden flight is supposed to be 2011) and a much smaller portfolio of products with which to compete (ie, they have no answer to the A380).

 

[EagleKeeper]

There is no need to answer the A380. It itself has such a limited market due to its size.

The market is so small that two manufacturers for such a size plane would not have enough market to cover the costs.

 

[Schadenfroh]

The thing is already a couple of years late, ambitious projects like the 787 and A380 seem to rarely hit their original launch date.

 

[Genx87]

They should work with the domestic auto suppliers since they need work anyways. Right now the major issue appears to be supply, not design. They will need to iron that out big time however if they plan on making a serious run with this new bird. Their platform is going to also move into the smaller jets. Personally I think the jury is still out whether intercontinental flights demand an A380 type aircraft. There was\is a reason why the 777 and A330 are popular planes this generation and the 767 was last.

 

[K1052]

Airbus had similar problems on the A380 which set back the development of the A350 XWB. As it stands the 787 will still enter service three years prior to the XWB.

The 787 is Boeing's answer to the A380. It represents a differing idea of how air travel will evolve over the next 30 years as many existing international hubs are saturated with traffic and operators shift to other regional airports.

 

[techs]

The solution is just to make the planes closer to where the parts are made.
I welcome our new Chinese plane manufacturer overlords.

 

[Kntx]

They'll be fine as long as the plane delivers what was promised. As for now it looks like the first few frames are going to be craptacular. If I ran an airline I'd stay away from the first production run. Of course once they get the manufacturing process sorted these things will sell for decades to come.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: K1052
Airbus had similar problems on the A380 which set back the development of the A350 XWB. As it stands the 787 will still enter service three years prior to the XWB.

The 787 is Boeing's answer to the A380. It represents a differing idea of how air travel will evolve over the next 30 years as many existing international hubs are saturated with traffic and operators shift to other regional airports.

the 787 was never intended to compete against the 380. they are targeted at two different markets.

Boeing felt that a 500+ passenger plane would not have the market needed for decent volume.

Given that the 380 is shut out of the inter-contenential US market due to major airports not wanting the plane in; it isforcing the aircraft to be used for long haul routes trans-oceanic routes that were the domain of the 747 for range and capacity.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: K1052
Airbus had similar problems on the A380 which set back the development of the A350 XWB. As it stands the 787 will still enter service three years prior to the XWB.

The 787 is Boeing's answer to the A380. It represents a differing idea of how air travel will evolve over the next 30 years as many existing international hubs are saturated with traffic and operators shift to other regional airports.

the 787 was never intended to compete against the 380. they are targeted at two different markets.

Boeing felt that a 500+ passenger plane would not have the market needed for decent volume.

Given that the 380 is shut out of the inter-contenential US market due to major airports not wanting the plane in; it isforcing the aircraft to be used for long haul routes trans-oceanic routes that were the domain of the 747 for range and capacity.

They will just in different ways. The 787 gives operators a lot more flexibility in routing since it has no special facility requirements.

Boeing didn't take the A380 seriously and became too far behind to compete for it's limited market. Airbus bet the farm that the A380 would be the shape of things to come for international travel and didn't take the 787 seriously then got the hell flamed out of themselves by the airlines for offering little more than a warmed over A330.

The upside for Boeing is that after they get all the problems worked out with the 787 they can leverage the technologies across their entire product line fairly quickly.

 

[MovingTarget]

On that front, no. However, things seem to be going well for them despite getting their AF tanker bid smacked down the first time. They'll end up getting that lucrative contract despite not having the better plane.

 

[Paddington]

Boeing's 787 screwed up a lot of the plans for flights that would have been underway by now.

My guess it that the 787 won't actually fly commercial routes until 2012 or so.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
On that front, no. However, things seem to be going well for them despite getting their AF tanker bid smacked down the first time. They'll end up getting that lucrative contract despite not having the better plane.

The GAO report on the tanker bids indicates the AF horribly botched the entire procurement process.

Dunno who will win the new competition or if it will be split between them.

 

[brandonbull]

That's what they get for outsourcing. Karma!!!!

 

[Sacrilege]

They have an answer for the A380, it is a stretched more fuel efficient 747.

 

[Kntx]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
On that front, no. However, things seem to be going well for them despite getting their AF tanker bid smacked down the first time. They'll end up getting that lucrative contract despite not having the better plane.

The GAO report on the tanker bids indicates the AF horribly botched the entire procurement process.

Dunno who will win the new competition or if it will be split between them.

The whole thing is BS. The AF is reuquried to write a RFP to include both planes. The real requirements would exclude boeings offering.

 

[StageLeft]

Rumors are floating that Boeing is going to scratch the whole thing. Apparently in a meeting early this morning the CEO said that he "cannot be bothered" to see this through to completion anymore and that the weather outside is "so fvcking awesome" that "I just want to play golf". He told his senior staff to take the rest of the summer off and that "Maybe we can get going on this again in the fall, if we can remember where we left off." Stocks are reeling.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Kntx

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
On that front, no. However, things seem to be going well for them despite getting their AF tanker bid smacked down the first time. They'll end up getting that lucrative contract despite not having the better plane.

The GAO report on the tanker bids indicates the AF horribly botched the entire procurement process.

Dunno who will win the new competition or if it will be split between them.

The whole thing is BS. The AF is reuquried to write a RFP to include both planes. The real requirements would exclude boeings offering.

Well Boeing is now talking about re-winging the 777 to both counter the A350 order book which has been inflated by 787 delays and offer a tankerized version for the AF contract.

I'm doubting this is going to be resolved anytime soon.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: K1052
Airbus had similar problems on the A380 which set back the development of the A350 XWB. As it stands the 787 will still enter service three years prior to the XWB.

The 787 is Boeing's answer to the A380. It represents a differing idea of how air travel will evolve over the next 30 years as many existing international hubs are saturated with traffic and operators shift to other regional airports.

the 787 was never intended to compete against the 380. they are targeted at two different markets.

Boeing felt that a 500+ passenger plane would not have the market needed for decent volume.

Given that the 380 is shut out of the inter-contenential US market due to major airports not wanting the plane in; it isforcing the aircraft to be used for long haul routes trans-oceanic routes that were the domain of the 747 for range and capacity.

They will just in different ways. The 787 gives operators a lot more flexibility in routing since it has no special facility requirements.

Boeing didn't take the A380 seriously and became too far behind to compete for it's limited market. Airbus bet the farm that the A380 would be the shape of things to come for international travel and didn't take the 787 seriously then got the hell flamed out of themselves by the airlines for offering little more than a warmed over A330.

The upside for Boeing is that after they get all the problems worked out with the 787 they can leverage the technologies across their entire product line fairly quickly.

I was gonna make fun of this post by saying something like "That's like saying the civic was Honda's answer to the GMC Suburban."

Then I realized how that whole situation evolved for Honda and GM to today and it didn't seem so funny anymore

 

[jpeyton]

Even with all the current 787 delays, I think we're just scratching the surface of Boeing's future troubles.

Their entire manufacturing philosophy with the 787 is deeply flawed. Boeing tried to save on development costs by outsourcing production of entire sections of the Dreamliner, but that decision has already cost them billions more than they saved, and will be a weak point in their plane's armor going forward.

Boeing Co. said Tuesday it has again delayed the first test flight of its long-awaited 787 jetliner, citing a need to reinforce part of the aircraft.

Confidence inspiring.

 

[ElFenix]

boeing attempted to spread the wealth around in order to get other governments to pressure their own national carriers into buying the 787. you want to sell airplanes in china then you better put some of the jobs in china.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Even with all the current 787 delays, I think we're just scratching the surface of Boeing's future troubles.

Their entire manufacturing philosophy with the 787 is deeply flawed. Boeing tried to save on development costs by outsourcing production of entire sections of the Dreamliner, but that decision has already cost them billions more than they saved, and will be a weak point in their plane's armor going forward.

Boeing Co. said Tuesday it has again delayed the first test flight of its long-awaited 787 jetliner, citing a need to reinforce part of the aircraft.

Confidence inspiring.

Info about the Wing-Box mod requirement


And this in turn affects the airlines Qantas ends 15 and defers 15 more orders


Which brings light to a well known fact - plastic planes are really hard to build right.
It's the chance of lighter total weight that makes reinforced graphite composites look like a miracle drug - like titanium used to be.

 

[cKGunslinger]

P-8

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
boeing attempted to spread the wealth around in order to get other governments to pressure their own national carriers into buying the 787. you want to sell airplanes in china then you better put some of the jobs in china.

But, apparently, if you want to sell Chinese made products in the US, you don't need to do diddly.

 

[mooseracing]

787 delays have been because of the new hardware they have had no expereince with (on the software side), so all timelines were pulled out of the air when they created them.

This is what happens when a new product is trying to be rolled out with all new hardware as well.

 

[SunSamurai]

QUICK GUYS WE NEED A BAILOUT!