They really said that???

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ultra laser

Banned
Jul 2, 2007
513
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Innocent Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Saddam.

Edit - I fixed your troll for you, so it's at least somewhat relevant.

What are the dead Iraqi's guilty of?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
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extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
7
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: techs

To paraphrase Churchill:
"Never in the course of human events have so many been so wrong for so long"

It's interesting that you quote here one of the worst war criminals of all time. He must have been talking about himself and his colleagues there.

Uhhhh.... wait.. what? *holds up citation needed card jokingly*. Churchill a war criminal? Did I wake up in a parallel universe? That's some whacky view of history you got there, lol.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,884
136
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Innocent Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Saddam.

Edit - I fixed your troll for you, so it's at least somewhat relevant.

What are the dead Iraqi's guilty of?

Which ones?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,884
136
Originally posted by: TechAZ
President Clinton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act


"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam?s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq?s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration?s policy towards Iraq, I don?t think there can be any question about Saddam?s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America?s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003


"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

Authorization for Military Use on Iraq:
http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf


Get over it, quit being partisan, if you want to lay blame then lay it at the feet of both parties.

Sorry, but this is a bash Republicans liberal circle jerk thread, your balance is not welcome here.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Time to don your severe cold weather survival suit because I actually agree with the entirety of eskimospy's post.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,884
136
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Time to don your severe cold weather survival suit because I actually agree with the entirety of eskimospy's post.

I completely agree with his post as well, but it's just a little more fun to string ultra laser along to see how far he's gonna go with this.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Time to don your severe cold weather survival suit because I actually agree with the entirety of eskimospy's post.

I completely agree with his post as well, but it's just a little more fun to string ultra laser along to see how far he's gonna go with this.
I am curious to see his answer to "Which ones?"
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

Strange you cut it off there and didn't quote the whole thing:

"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors?and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history."
Barack Obama October 2002
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Not even close.

Saddam's totals:
Iran-Iraq War 250,000 to 500,000 (he started the war so he is responsible for their deaths.)
Al-Anfar 100,000 to 200,000
Gulf War 20,000 to 35,000 although some say as high as 200,000 (again he started the war and is responsible.)
Post Gulf War massacres 20,000 to 100,000 Kurds 60,000 to 130,000 Shiites.
Sanction period 170,000 up to a million

So we are talking about 570,000 to perhaps 2 million.

The highest estimates since our invasion are 100,000 to 200,000? And most of those were killed by other Iraqis.

Don't think you can even pretend to compare the number of people killed by Saddam to the number dead since our invasion.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: herm0016
anyone can find as many similar quotes by democrats. this thread is the fail.

Were they the President?

No, it's just that they voted for the resolution etc.

Fern
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Were they the President?

No, it's just that they voted for the resolution etc.

Fern

By "they," you're referring to all of those in Congress who were fed all of the Bushwhackos' lies about nonexistent WMD's, yellowcake uranium, Al Qaeda connections and other paranoia, pimping their tratorous war of lies.

You're blowing stale, years old neocon smoke. :thumbsdown:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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I see you are missing Clintons, Kerry, Pelosi and gangs similar comments over the years.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

oops
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Were they the President?

No, it's just that they voted for the resolution etc.

Fern

By "they," you're referring to all of those in Congress who were fed all of the Bushwhackos' lies about nonexistent WMD's, yellowcake uranium, Al Qaeda connections and other paranoia, pimping their tratorous war of lies.

You're blowing stale, years old neocon smoke out of your ass.
Harvey,

Read the list of quotes by TechAZ. They are nearly the SAME as the quotes from Techs.

When the Democrats were in the White House it was the Democrats talking of WMD. When the Republicans were in the White House it was Republicans talking about WMD.

Even Al Gore and Bill Clinton were making the WMD statements prior to the war. Are you suggesting that they too were fooled by Bush?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

oops

By "oops," you're referring to statements made by all of those in Congress who were fed all of the Bushwhackos' lies about nonexistent WMD's, yellowcake uranium, Al Qaeda connections and other paranoia, pimping their tratorous war of lies.

You're another blowing the same stale, years old neocon smoke. :thumbsdown:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

oops

By "oops," you're referring to statements made by all of those in Congress who were fed all of the Bushwhackos' lies about nonexistent WMD's, yellowcake uranium, Al Qaeda connections and other paranoia, pimping their tratorous war of lies.

You're another blowing the same stale, years old neocon smoke. :thumbsdown:

No I mean oops that even Obama blabbed on about Saddams Chemical weapons programs.

And you are another has been liberal who cant pull his own head from the ass of the democrat party. Get over yourself.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,013
55,456
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Not even close.

Saddam's totals:
Iran-Iraq War 250,000 to 500,000 (he started the war so he is responsible for their deaths.)
Al-Anfar 100,000 to 200,000
Gulf War 20,000 to 35,000 although some say as high as 200,000 (again he started the war and is responsible.)
Post Gulf War massacres 20,000 to 100,000 Kurds 60,000 to 130,000 Shiites.
Sanction period 170,000 up to a million

So we are talking about 570,000 to perhaps 2 million.

The highest estimates since our invasion are 100,000 to 200,000? And most of those were killed by other Iraqis.

Don't think you can even pretend to compare the number of people killed by Saddam to the number dead since our invasion.

The point of my post was an attempt to be reasonable as to who could be blamed for varios Iraqi deaths. You took my honest asessment and went into full blown partisan hack mode blaming everything on Saddam. Your numbers are total ridiculous shit and your attribution of all of those deaths to Saddam is so simplistic that it reminds me of a 6th grade social studies report.

Doing things like holding Saddam solely responsible for the deaths in Iraq due to the US implementing and enforcing sanctions on them is dishonest and it undermines your position. When you do this you hold Saddam responsible for the collateral damage caused by his actions, but ignore our influence on them and the collateral damage caused by our actions.

You know you don't have to be like this, right?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,013
55,456
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

oops

How is that an oops? Obama's always said he thought Saddam was a bad guy. He just didn't think an attack/invasion/occupation was a good solution to the problem.

Turns out he was right too.

EDIT: Oh, I see you think that statement says that Obama thought Saddam was currently doing so. I'm not sure if other statements Obama said might say that, but the one you quoted certainly doesn't.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: techs
But when it came to actually invading Iraq, Bush was in charge. And he looked (cooked?) at the intelligence and made the decisions.
It is absolutely bizarre to blame an ex-President for the mistakes Bush made.

Bush cannot start a war, cannot fund a war, cannot do shit without Congress.

You are not reading what I have posted....Clinton made it POLICY for regime change in Iraq.

Bush did not cook up all the intelligence that was fed to him via foreign countries, Bush did not cook up intelligence from the CIA TO him. Get over it, you've been duped by Internets.

You are doing what the left winger politicians want you to do....if they really thought the same as you GWB would have been impeached LOOOOOOONG ago.

Hrmm, I don't remember Clinton choosing an armed invasion and 5+ year occupation as a method to implement that policy. Maybe I just wasn't watching the news. Just because two people have a similar goal doesn't mean that one of them didn't choose a catastrophically horrible way to reach that goal.

If you are honestly trying to say that Bush used a sober and reasoned estimation of the available intelligence without regard to ideological goals and hubris you are blind. Not only was the evidence weak, but numerous officials within the government both low and high have repeatedly come out and said that the administration was attempting to fix the intelligence analysis around the policy, not the other way around.

Cover your ears all you want, but not only did Bush make one of the largest foreign policy blunders in a generation, he did it while other people were trying to slap him awake.
The above is the only post worth anything in this worthless thread.

funny how everyone ignores these points.

We all will no doubt continue arguing the above points...because on the one hand you have the people that will defend this adminstration and its party until death. On the other hand you have everyone else that sees the facts on the ground and draws a different conclusion, that the administration was at the very least, willfully ignorant, about the facts leading up to the war.

It really boils down to this point

Ignorant or not, do we no longer hold our administration accountable for mistakes? obviously mistakes were made in the run up to the Iraq war.

some argue that we just move on, and forget about these "mistakes" some argue that we need accountabilty, so that these types of "mistakes" dont ever happen again.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Were they the President?

No, it's just that they voted for the resolution etc.

Fern

By "they," you're referring to all of those in Congress who were fed all of the Bushwhackos' lies about nonexistent WMD's, yellowcake uranium, Al Qaeda connections and other paranoia, pimping their tratorous war of lies.

You're blowing stale, years old neocon smoke out of your ass.
Harvey,

Read the list of quotes by TechAZ. They are nearly the SAME as the quotes from Techs.

When the Democrats were in the White House it was the Democrats talking of WMD. When the Republicans were in the White House it was Republicans talking about WMD.

Even Al Gore and Bill Clinton were making the WMD statements prior to the war. Are you suggesting that they too were fooled by Bush?
hell, even I was calling for the death of saddamm after the first gulf war.

you are missing THE critical element to your argument.

Who actually sent troops to Iraq PJ?
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

Strange you cut it off there and didn't quote the whole thing:

"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors?and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history."
Barack Obama October 2002

Heh, nice...

Bump!
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: RY62
"Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchered his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him."
Barack Obama October 2002

Strange you cut it off there and didn't quote the whole thing:

"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors?and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history."
Barack Obama October 2002

Heh, nice...

Bump!
ouch....

or

oops.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ultra laser
Serious question: who has killed more Iraqis - Saddam or US military?

Depends on what sort of deaths you want to attribute to the US military and over what period. If you're counting both gulf wars then the US military and Saddam are probably relatively close in deaths attributable to them. Then again, large numbers of those dead are soldiers. It also depends on how much of the chaos in Iraq you want to blame on the US invasion.

So, not really an easily answerable question.
Not even close.

Saddam's totals:
Iran-Iraq War 250,000 to 500,000 (he started the war so he is responsible for their deaths.)
Al-Anfar 100,000 to 200,000
Gulf War 20,000 to 35,000 although some say as high as 200,000 (again he started the war and is responsible.)
Post Gulf War massacres 20,000 to 100,000 Kurds 60,000 to 130,000 Shiites.
Sanction period 170,000 up to a million

So we are talking about 570,000 to perhaps 2 million.

The highest estimates since our invasion are 100,000 to 200,000? And most of those were killed by other Iraqis.

Don't think you can even pretend to compare the number of people killed by Saddam to the number dead since our invasion.
The point of my post was an attempt to be reasonable as to who could be blamed for varios Iraqi deaths. You took my honest asessment and went into full blown partisan hack mode blaming everything on Saddam. Your numbers are total ridiculous shit and your attribution of all of those deaths to Saddam is so simplistic that it reminds me of a 6th grade social studies report.

Doing things like holding Saddam solely responsible for the deaths in Iraq due to the US implementing and enforcing sanctions on them is dishonest and it undermines your position. When you do this you hold Saddam responsible for the collateral damage caused by his actions, but ignore our influence on them and the collateral damage caused by our actions.

You know you don't have to be like this, right?
Who do you think is responsible for more Iraqi deaths Saddam or the US?

Hell just use the An-Anfar and post Gulf war massacres and Saddam 'wins' hands down.