They knew...

[HardWarrior]

This is the more complete data I've seem so far about the mechanics of getting the US into Iraq.

"But as author Flannery O?Conner noted, ?Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.? That means no matter how much defensive spin spews from the White House, the Bush administration cannot escape the documented fact that it was clearly warned before the war that its rationale for invading Iraq was weak."

 

[Vadatajs]

That's originally from the Center for American Progress. Check the link in my sig for more.

 

[HardWarrior]

Thanks for the link sir. What do you think of the article?

 

[Vadatajs]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Thanks for the link sir. What do you think of the article?

Most of it is old news to me, because most of the information it contains has been presented in their daily email reports, as well as on the Al Franken Show. You'll notice the 2 authors are David Sirota and Christie Harvey, who are regular guests.

...
JESUS THE FORUMS ARE SLOW TODAY
...

I actually posted a thread containing IMHO the most damning bit of information from the article 2 days ago.

this one

It didn't get any takers. But I'm glad you posted the entire article, instead of a just link from it, like I did.

 

[HardWarrior]

Yeah, mostly old news for me as well. I've yet to see this much of it all in one place though, with external links as well. TBH, I don't think even something like this will convince the hardcore Bush guys that they're wrong.

 

[Vadatajs]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Yeah, nostly old news for me as well. I've yet to see this much of it all in one place though, with external links as well. TBH, I don't think even something like this will convince the hardcore Bush guys that they're wrong.

You're probably right. There's only so much new information they can take in before cognitive dissonance kicks in, and they stop reading the article. If they get to the end, it might change their minds. Unfortunately, new information that disagrees with preconcieved notions about how the world works makes people uneasy and less receptive, regardless of whether it is true or not. Molly Ivins talks about this a bit, and it makes a lot of sense. She describes cognitive dissonance using an attic metaphore; your mind is a cluttered attic, with boxes, old furnature, cobwebs, and whatever else might be floating around. Now when a different pieces of furnature enters the picutre, one that might not fit without re-arranging the stuff that's already there, that new piece is discarded, rather than adapting the space to fit it. It's basically intellectual laziness.

I hope moonbeam sees this thread, he seems to know a bit about psychology (either that or he's just obsessed with the looking glass self and doesn't realize it--nah, he's too consistent); he'll be able to explain it better.

To me congnitive dissonance is one of those phenomena where if you are aware of it, you can make a conscious effort to avoid succumbing to it in the face of facts that disagree with your particular ideology.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Have you guys seen this?

Timeline to war in Iraq

If you actually go through it you can plainly see, like night and day, where the BS is coming from regarding Iraq. All fascists on this board can never twist the facts far enough to get anywhere. There's just too much evidence that Bush was picking a fight and was not taking no for an answer from anybody.

Quite sad really, cause it virtually mirrors how Nazi Germany started taking countries over. Lots of strong words, plenty of unreasonable demands, and nobody was willing to stand up to them. Nobody, except the poor nations that were slaughtered. I can go on for another page and a half about how it also mirrors the Gestapo tactics of the fascists by torturing the population but lets leave all that juicy stuff for another thread. I mean it's not like the US would ever be capable of sinking so low as to use such tactics now would they? They can do no harm cause they are "good" and these people were a part of the "Axis of Evil". *sarcasm*

 

[Gaard]

This thread fits well with this.

How many here think that the average American voter knows these things about Bush and Co?

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeh, I posted the link to the original article before, in a different thread.

Of course they knew. Given the "Find Me A Way" POV that existed in the Whitehouse, the Bush camp exploited 9/11 much the same way that the Nazis exploited the Reichstag fire- directing public rage against unrelated targets.

Aelius' observations about the avoidance of cognitive dissonance are appropriate- properly exploited and manipulated, otherwise rational folks can become drooling idiots. Having a 30 year prelude of increasingly vitriolic and emotionally manipulative rightwing slogans, catchphrases, and exceedingly deceptive rationalizations has set the stage for a form of national hysteria.

Those who've been successfully manipulated simply can't recognize their predicament, because they trust and revere their manipulators in a way that can only be described in terms of blind faith adherence to false cultural mythos. Only catastrophe will convince any of them that they've been misled, and, even then, many will never abandon a belief system that's demonstrably self destructive, even delusional.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Gaard
This thread fits well with this.

How many here think that the average American voter knows these things about Bush and Co?

It isn't the ones who don't know anything about this who scare me. It's the folks who've gotten glimmers of it but still support Bush anyway. In many cases, these same people confuse personal beliefs with how the US should function as a nation. A person at 3dgameman told me that as THE strong nation we have certain responsibilities that exceed ANY law, national or international, when it comes to helping the helpless and righting wrongs. It didn't matter to this individual that no nation can place itself above international norms without inviting others to do the same, that the US isn't in possesion of unlimited resources or that the federal government isn't empowered to behave this way. The only thing that mattered to him was that, in his view, the US was acting out some White Knight fantasy that he saw as beneficial.

 

[fjord]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Gaard
This thread fits well with this.

How many here think that the average American voter knows these things about Bush and Co?

It isn't the ones who don't know anything about this who scare me. It's the folks who've gotten glimmers of it but still support Bush anyway. In many cases, these same people confuse personal beliefs with how the US should function as a nation. A person at 3dgameman told me that as THE strong nation we have certain responsibilities that exceed ANY law, national or international, when it comes to helping the helpless and righting wrongs. It didn't matter to this individual that no nation can place itself above international norms without inviting others to do the same, that the US isn't in possesion of unlimited resources or that the federal government isn't empowered to behave this way. The only thing that mattered to him was that, in his view, the US was acting out some White Knight fantasy that he saw as beneficial.

I wrote about this mind-set in another thread--It is called "Circle the Wagons" mentality.

Defend a cause, or an issue, or an administration without the benefit of thoughtful analysis (or even worse--faulty, self-fulfilling analysis). Pretty much, no matter what the facts are.

Very much akin to cheering for the home team--good or bad.

The Bush administration themselves term things in this narrow-minded context--us against them.

Only people with a "Circle the Wagons" mentality could come to the conclusion that The Bush administration deserves to be re-elected.

In-other-words, for these folks--the Bush administration is the home team. The facts won't change their mind. They will deny any facts that disagree with their predetermined position.

But the facts need to be documented, in a free society. The Bush administration knew, and they still know, and they are still lying to the American public.

 

[viivo]

Regarding the people who know the war was started on false premises but still defend the occupation and Bush; I believe it stems from religion, nationalism or worse - both. I believe they feel that imposing their righteous will on other cultures is not only right, but required because while the people may not ask for it, it's really what they want. As for Bush, no one can speak for his motives, unless you want to take the easy way out and yell "oil."

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Aelius
Have you guys seen this?

Timeline to war in Iraq

If you actually go through it you can plainly see, like night and day, where the BS is coming from regarding Iraq. All fascists on this board can never twist the facts far enough to get anywhere. There's just too much evidence that Bush was picking a fight and was not taking no for an answer from anybody.

Quite sad really, cause it virtually mirrors how Nazi Germany started taking countries over. Lots of strong words, plenty of unreasonable demands, and nobody was willing to stand up to them. Nobody, except the poor nations that were slaughtered. I can go on for another page and a half about how it also mirrors the Gestapo tactics of the fascists by torturing the population but lets leave all that juicy stuff for another thread. I mean it's not like the US would ever be capable of sinking so low as to use such tactics now would they? They can do no harm cause they are "good" and these people were a part of the "Axis of Evil". *sarcasm*

So who did Poland or any other country that Germany invaded in 1930s invade causing Germany and other parts of the world to come to their rescue...leaving that country in a broken state of truce for nearly five years before Germany decided they needed to take care of that country after Germany was attacked by terrorists?

Only when the american concentration camps firey ovens are burning will I acknowledge anything close to a corelation.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: fjord
I wrote about this mind-set in another thread--It is called "Circle the Wagons" mentality.

Defend a cause, or an issue, or an administration without the benefit of thoughtful analysis (or even worse--faulty, self-fulfilling analysis). Pretty much, no matter what the facts are.

Very much akin to cheering for the home team--good or bad.

The Bush administration themselves term things in this narrow-minded context--us against them.

Only people with a "Circle the Wagons" mentality could come to the conclusion that The Bush administration deserves to be re-elected.

In-other-words, for these folks--the Bush administration is the home team. The facts won't change their mind. They will deny any facts that disagree with their predetermined position.

But the facts need to be documented, in a free society. The Bush administration knew, and they still know, and they are still lying to the American public.

Indeed, and well said! Though I wish the democrats could have fielded a candidate that I could vote for without putting a plastic bag over my head. They don't even seem to be about to acknowledge that 60% of those polled now think that attacking Iraq wasn't worth it.

 

[Rainsford]

When you examine the facts, you pretty much have to come to the conclusion that Bush was just looking for a fight. The disconnect between what was being said by the US and what everyone else was saying in the months leading up to the war is just astonishing.

People who support Bush now are, in the words of another poster, just "cheering for the home team". But that's not near enough people to get him reelected. If the democrats were smart they would have easially been able to turn the undecided voters their way, and probably convert some Bush supporters as well. I am astonished they aren't hitting this issue harder and letting everyone know how full of sh!t Bush really is.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
When you examine the facts, you pretty much have to come to the conclusion that Bush was just looking for a fight. The disconnect between what was being said by the US and what everyone else was saying in the months leading up to the war is just astonishing.

People who support Bush now are, in the words of another poster, just "cheering for the home team". But that's not near enough people to get him reelected. If the democrats were smart they would have easially been able to turn the undecided voters their way, and probably convert some Bush supporters as well. I am astonished they aren't hitting this issue harder and letting everyone know how full of sh!t Bush really is.

As near as I can tell the democrats are afraid to look weak on national defense, their supposed Achilles heel. Magnify this by 9/11 and you have them ignoring polls and tripping all over themselves to out ?tough guy? Bush. I have noticed this though; the raving Bush supporters here are a LOT less strident than they were before I took my vacation. Maybe that?s a good sign, I don?t know. Regardless of who rides the big chair after the next election, the American people are going to have to wise up and put the short-pants away. If we don?t do, we?re going to end up the most hated and isolated nation on earth, and what freedoms we have left destroyed in the name of perfect security..

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Aelius
Have you guys seen this?

Timeline to war in Iraq

If you actually go through it you can plainly see, like night and day, where the BS is coming from regarding Iraq. All fascists on this board can never twist the facts far enough to get anywhere. There's just too much evidence that Bush was picking a fight and was not taking no for an answer from anybody.

Quite sad really, cause it virtually mirrors how Nazi Germany started taking countries over. Lots of strong words, plenty of unreasonable demands, and nobody was willing to stand up to them. Nobody, except the poor nations that were slaughtered. I can go on for another page and a half about how it also mirrors the Gestapo tactics of the fascists by torturing the population but lets leave all that juicy stuff for another thread. I mean it's not like the US would ever be capable of sinking so low as to use such tactics now would they? They can do no harm cause they are "good" and these people were a part of the "Axis of Evil". *sarcasm*

So who did Poland or any other country that Germany invaded in 1930s invade causing Germany and other parts of the world to come to their rescue...leaving that country in a broken state of truce for nearly five years before Germany decided they needed to take care of that country after Germany was attacked by terrorists?

Only when the american concentration camps firey ovens are burning will I acknowledge anything close to a corelation.

Come again? Your first blurb doesn't make any sense. I think I know what you are getting at but please re-read your first paragraph because honestly it makes no sense what so ever. I think you jumped the gun and you are thinking faster than your fingers can type.

As to your second point I have an anology for you. A frog is cooked by gradually turning up the heat ever so slightly so that the frog becomes comfortable to the heat but eventually by the time it realizes it can't take anymore its too late and the frog is cooked.

How's the heat? You feel comfy yet?