They have begun to return

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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They have begun to return

Highly motivated, trained European jihadists are giving continent?s intelligence services real headache.


By Michel Moutot - PARIS

They are highly motivated, battle-hardened, mobile - and therefore dangerous. And the return of Europe's jihadists from Iraq is giving the continent's intelligence services nightmares.


As far back as October 2005, Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr Soulagh warned that intercepted correspondence between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and other figures in the movement had revealed a decision to send large numbers of Islamist volunteers back to their countries of origin to wage holy war there.


According to Soulagh, by autumn 2005 several hundred militant fighters had already left for home.


Baltazar Garzon, the Spanish judge who has led inquiries into Al-Qaeda in Spain, said on Tuesday there were indications that large numbers of veterans of the Iraqi jihad were returning to Europe.


"I cannot say how many cases we are talking about but it is a question of logic. Up until now enquiries were focused on volunteers travelling to Iraq. Now we are beginning to get indications that they have begun to return," he said.


"Infrastructures are being put in place to accommodate them," added the judge, who spoke from the French city of Lyon, where he was attending an Interpol meeting.


Over the past three years, hundreds of jihadist volunteers from almost every country in Europe have travelled to Iraq, via Syria, Egypt, Turkey or Iran. Once there, they have been more or less integrated into the anti-US resistance, often to commit suicide attacks.


In 2005, the prestigious International Institute for Strategic Studies in London estimated the number of foreign volunteers in Iraq to be at least one thousand.


On Thursday, the head of France's domestic security service, Pierre de Bousquet, indicated that around 15 young French people remained in and around Iraq. At least nine have been killed there.


Foreign volunteers "have become a bit of a nuisance there and are being urged to return to Europe to pursue jihad there. We have seen a few examples," he said.


Claude Moniquet, director of the Brussels-based European Strategic Intelligence and Security Centre, estimates there are "several hundred" former fighters from Iraq in western Europe and says they are "potentially very dangerous".


"Given the high motivation and the youth of these Iraqi volunteers, the risk that they will start to commit terrorist acts on European soil is very real," he said.


"Twenty years ago, following Russia's retreat from Afghanistan, a lot of people returned to their home countries, and behaved relatively calmly.


"But 10 years later they were the ones found, more or less systematically, to be involved in the networks that were dismantled between 2001 and 2005."


If it is relatively simple to monitor the departures of people to Iraq, and therefore their possible return home, tracking them over the medium to long term will be a real headache, warned Moniquet.


"It is pretty much impossible to organise the surveillance of several hundred people across Europe.


"Effective surveillance of one person requires an absolute minimum of 12 to 15 officers. Multiply that by several hundred and you need thousands. And even then, we're talking about a makeshift operation."


It is ironic that the monsters this war has created are now going home to wage jihad against countries such as France who opposed the war.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Yep. Of course, all of the war supporters think that we're just fighting them over there. Al Qaeda is estimated to be about 2 to 3 times the size it was before the war. Too bad we helped them grow to that size and now they are trained and leaving for the "rest" of the world.

<insert middle finger icon> to the Neocon idealogues who brought on this war and support it from a PNAC viewpoint!
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
It is moronic to assume that the Iraq war created these Jihad fighters. No, that desire was always latent within the islamic conscience. The war just let it slip up in the open.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: Braznor
It is moronic to assume that the Iraq war created these Jihad fighters. No, that desire was always latent within the islamic conscience. The war just let it slip up in the open.

Every person has latent desires for death, destruction and chaos; this is how an "enlightened" nation became the home of Nazism, how ordinary americans got involved in My Lai etc. Its been the subject of many books (Heart of Darkness, Lord of the Flies) and movies.

Stating the obvious and trying to pass it off as something uniquely Islamic won't fool anyone: you poeple were horribly wrong about every aspect of this disaster and pretty much every bad thing predicted by people beforehand is coming true.
 

Snoop

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
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"I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons."

John Kerry

So much for the PNAC, Neocon idealogues unless of course you consider Kerry a member.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Snoop
"I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons."

John Kerry

So much for the PNAC, Neocon idealogues unless of course you consider Kerry a member.

So Kerry was an idiot to be fooled by the PNAC group that flat out cherry picked intelligence and dismissed credible evidence that Iraq had nothing. Just like most of CONgress was fooled The war was a lie and it has done nothing except strengthen terrorist recruiting and training globally. You boys can cheerlead all you want. There WERE NO WMD's in Iraq. Only a stupid PNAC President that cheerleaded his way to a lie of a war. Thousands dead, 10's of thousands hurt, HUNDREDS of BILLIONS spent....Worse shape than when we started!!!

"Mission Accomplished" anyone?

Like I save...fvck all of the PNAC and NEOCON believing bastards. Looks like the rest of the US finally waking up with that ole 33.8% AVERAGE approval of Bush.

fvcking war cheerleaders.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
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The people who say that the democrats were simply "Fooled" by "PNAC" are being fools themselves in saying so. Was PNAC "fooling" people in the '90s too?

Cant you people recognize that the world is not simply a black and white issue of "Bush and company responsible for everything bad and with bad intent?"

If anything, I think the dems in question genuinely believed there were WMDs there, AS did Bush and friends,

OR

The dems genuinely believed it, but Bush knew there were doubts, but they did not change his decision to go in.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Frackal
The people who say that the democrats were simply "Fooled" by "PNAC" are being fools themselves in saying so. Was PNAC "fooling" people in the '90s too?

Cant you people recognize that the world is not simply a black and white issue of "Bush and company responsible for everything bad and with bad intent?"

If anything, I think the dems in question genuinely believed there were WMDs there, AS did Bush and friends,

OR

The dems genuinely believed it, but Bush knew there were doubts, but they did not change his decision to go in.


People in the 90's were rushing into Iraq. Saddam was contained and was not a threat. You fanboys just can't seem to jump off the waggon, can you?

Bush was hellbent on going into Iraq from day #1. You boys and blow sunshine up Bush's butt all you want. The people finally realize what a fool and liar he was and want the mother fvcker gone!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
The people who say that the democrats were simply "Fooled" by "PNAC" are being fools themselves in saying so. Was PNAC "fooling" people in the '90s too?

Cant you people recognize that the world is not simply a black and white issue of "Bush and company responsible for everything bad and with bad intent?"

If anything, I think the dems in question genuinely believed there were WMDs there, AS did Bush and friends,

OR

The dems genuinely believed it, but Bush knew there were doubts, but they did not change his decision to go in.

OR

Bush and friends knew the "facts" were wrong and the Dems had their doubts but went ahead anyways out of a feeling of patriotic duty.

Not that this has anything to back it up, but since we can't read minds, assigning motivation is kind of pointless. All we can judge is the results, and like it or not, the guys on the top have to take the blame if things go bad (and they can take the credit if things go well). That's how leadership works. Were the Dems a bunch of gutless idiots for going ahead with Bush's plan despite less than solid evidence? Yes...and they deserve blame for that. But Bush was President when it happened, and being President means that executive decisions like going to war are pretty much your responsibility.

I remember back to the 2000 election, Bush ran on the platform of restoring honesty and integrity to the White House. And part of having integrity is that when you make a bad decision, you own up to it and don't try to blame the people that work for you or the other party because "they supported it too". It sounds a little too much like the kind of crap conservatives always (rightly, IMHO) hated about Clinton. That refusal to take responsibility for anything, the neverending string of phrases like "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is". And yet, the guy who ran principly as the anti-Clinton is doing pretty much the same thing...and for some reason his supporters are going right along with it.
 

eilute

Senior member
Jun 1, 2005
477
0
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Yep. Of course, all of the war supporters think that we're just fighting them over there. Al Qaeda is estimated to be about 2 to 3 times the size it was before the war. Too bad we helped them grow to that size and now they are trained and leaving for the "rest" of the world.

Got a link for that?

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Braznor
It is moronic to assume that the Iraq war created these Jihad fighters. No, that desire was always latent within the islamic conscience. The war just let it slip up in the open.

they existed before the war... we've simply brought them out of the woodwork.

they'll get theirs.

one-by-one-by-motherfuckin-one. dont worry, dont cry...you dont have to help...
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
This is probably just the regular propaganda to deflect the cause of radicalization away from massive racism, oppression, etc (not that it's justified) in European society. Their belief of utopian society would be damaged if they realize that they have to look at the social ills within, so they blame outside factors.
 

walkur

Senior member
May 1, 2001
774
8
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is probably just the regular propaganda to deflect the cause of radicalization away from massive racism, oppression, etc (not that it's justified) in European society. Their belief of utopian society would be damaged if they realize that they have to look at the social ills within, so they blame outside factors.

Not you again... please shut up

 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: walkur
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is probably just the regular propaganda to deflect the cause of radicalization away from massive racism, oppression, etc (not that it's justified) in European society. Their belief of utopian society would be damaged if they realize that they have to look at the social ills within, so they blame outside factors.

Not you again... please shut up

Not you again... please shut up
 

martinez

Senior member
May 10, 2005
272
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Braznor
It is moronic to assume that the Iraq war created these Jihad fighters. No, that desire was always latent within the islamic conscience. The war just let it slip up in the open.

they existed before the war... we've simply brought them out of the woodwork.

they'll get theirs.

one-by-one-by-motherfuckin-one. dont worry, dont cry...you dont have to help...

Tough guy, I can picture you sitting at your keyboard wearing a sleeveless miltary shirt and a stars and stripes bandanna. ******-A right, damn A-rabs, towelheads gongit theirs.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: martinez
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Braznor
It is moronic to assume that the Iraq war created these Jihad fighters. No, that desire was always latent within the islamic conscience. The war just let it slip up in the open.

they existed before the war... we've simply brought them out of the woodwork.

they'll get theirs.

one-by-one-by-motherfuckin-one. dont worry, dont cry...you dont have to help...

Tough guy, I can picture you sitting at your keyboard wearing a sleeveless miltary shirt and a stars and stripes bandanna. ******-A right, damn A-rabs, towelheads gongit theirs.

lol.. you've got jokes! but you're wrong.

first of all, i AM one of the ones helping... second, it has nothing to do with them being "Arab."

a sh*tbag is a sh*tbag. period. if the thought of them being killed makes you angry, then dont worry, we really dont need your help. we've got it. so feel free to go on with your carefree life... go ahead... seriously... we dont mind.

we've got it.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
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0
It is the responsibility of each country to absorb the immigrants and make them a part of the working (as in functioning) so society. That people such as these exist, is only proof that many countries have failed at this. Denmark, France, Britain, Germany that i know of. I know sweden is majorly succesfull in absorbing immigrants, even though they haven't passed trough idiotic rules like denmark and england have. They choose the more open welcome, which works, and they have a very high rate of succes with their immigration politics.
This is all facts, i don't see why idiots like Fogh (danish PM) and Blair haven't learned anything from sweden.
Well, atleast the solution is there.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Forsythe
It is the responsibility of each country to absorb the immigrants and make them a part of the working (as in functioning) so society. That people such as these exist, is only proof that many countries have failed at this. Denmark, France, Britain, Germany that i know of. I know sweden is majorly succesfull in absorbing immigrants, even though they haven't passed trough idiotic rules like denmark and england have. They choose the more open welcome, which works, and they have a very high rate of succes with their immigration politics.
This is all facts, i don't see why idiots like Fogh (danish PM) and Blair haven't learned anything from sweden.
Well, atleast the solution is there.

to absorb violent jihadists!?? umm.. no. it is every country's responsiblity to arrest or kill them; NOT harbor them.

Do you really believe that they should all be given a "timeout" for a little R&R until the next time they decide to return and kill innocents and Americans?!

wtf? you're kiding, right? or did you fail to read the article which describes these "immigrants" as "Highly motivated, trained European jihadists"? please tell me it's one or the other...
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: walkur
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is probably just the regular propaganda to deflect the cause of radicalization away from massive racism, oppression, etc (not that it's justified) in European society. Their belief of utopian society would be damaged if they realize that they have to look at the social ills within, so they blame outside factors.

Not you again... please shut up

He's kinda right.
The problem is not racism as such, it's more like xenophobia (it lives in the US aswell but since you have societies that can contain these (you have the space) it's not that big a problem), immigrants don't feel welcomed, and the "unfair" rules applied to them drive them out of the existing society, and force them to create their own sub-existences, in their own world. This is hurting immigration and europe needs to open up and accept them to solve the major immigration problems.

Though as he's gonna claim, it's not rasicm on purpose, and there's no plan to eliminate them, adn we're not oppressing them because we don't like them.
It's a hidden (hidden in ones mind) xenophobia most people have, being insecure about letting immigrants enter ones country because they're not like you.
The xenophobia is expected, and it will be there when societies try to integrate, but it should never afflict politician who should be above the human standard of fear.
Like sweden has welcomed them.

Unfortunately in the areas of foreign immigration, terrorism (vastly overrated) and fical policies, politicians are no smarter than the average citizen (exception occur, sweden is one, on the immigration area anyways). Sadly.

And as the immigrants adapt to the european society, the society will adapt to them. And the xenophobia will disappear.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Forsythe
It is the responsibility of each country to absorb the immigrants and make them a part of the working (as in functioning) so society. That people such as these exist, is only proof that many countries have failed at this. Denmark, France, Britain, Germany that i know of. I know sweden is majorly succesfull in absorbing immigrants, even though they haven't passed trough idiotic rules like denmark and england have. They choose the more open welcome, which works, and they have a very high rate of succes with their immigration politics.
This is all facts, i don't see why idiots like Fogh (danish PM) and Blair haven't learned anything from sweden.
Well, atleast the solution is there.

to absorb violent jihadists!?? umm.. no. it is every country's responsiblity to arrest or kill them; NOT harbor them.

Do you really believe that they should all be given a "timeout" for a little R&R until the next time they decide to return and kill innocents and Americans?!

wtf? you're kiding, right? or did you fail to read the article which describes these "immigrants" as "Highly motivated, trained European jihadists"? please tell me it's one or the other...

You are misunderstanding me. The society are creating these, people are created by their surroundings, and if these surroundings were better, these people would not exist.
If the modern western society reacted better towards these (politically) it would easily remove the threat.

Ofcourse these certain people should be captured if they try anything ( they're not criminals unless they do something).
I wouldn't want them killed, just captured.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
the end of the world is gonna be :cool:

Give it 40 more years and humans will be extinct (one can hope), or we will be enjoying life as our computer counterparts will be doing all the work.
40 years is a conservative guess. Depends on how fast computational progress will be made after 2020.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Forsythe
It is the responsibility of each country to absorb the immigrants and make them a part of the working (as in functioning) so society. That people such as these exist, is only proof that many countries have failed at this. Denmark, France, Britain, Germany that i know of. I know sweden is majorly succesfull in absorbing immigrants, even though they haven't passed trough idiotic rules like denmark and england have. They choose the more open welcome, which works, and they have a very high rate of succes with their immigration politics.
This is all facts, i don't see why idiots like Fogh (danish PM) and Blair haven't learned anything from sweden.
Well, atleast the solution is there.

to absorb violent jihadists!?? umm.. no. it is every country's responsiblity to arrest or kill them; NOT harbor them.

Do you really believe that they should all be given a "timeout" for a little R&R until the next time they decide to return and kill innocents and Americans?!

wtf? you're kiding, right? or did you fail to read the article which describes these "immigrants" as "Highly motivated, trained European jihadists"? please tell me it's one or the other...

You are misunderstanding me. The society are creating these, people are created by their surroundings, and if these surroundings were better, these people would not exist.
If the modern western society reacted better towards these (politically) it would easily remove the threat.

Ofcourse these certain people should be captured if they try anything ( they're not criminals unless they do something).
I wouldn't want them killed, just captured.

so they're not "criminals" for having fought against allied and coalition forces in Iraq, as foreign, non-uniformed civilians?

I highly suggest that you study the Law of War.

They are criminals. Their future behavoir is irrelevant.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
so they're not "criminals" for having fought against allied and coalition forces in Iraq, as foreign, non-uniformed civilians?

I highly suggest that you study the Law of War.

They are criminals. Their future behavoir is irrelevant.

If they've done anything illegal they are criminals, and should be prosecuted ofcourse, and you know i believe that.
But I believe the story said that people who just came there were sent back to europe before they did anything.
But in general i was talking about people who have these thoughts and inclinations.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Forsythe
so they're not "criminals" for having fought against allied and coalition forces in Iraq, as foreign, non-uniformed civilians?

I highly suggest that you study the Law of War.

They are criminals. Their future behavoir is irrelevant.

If they've done anything illegal they are criminals, and should be prosecuted ofcourse, and you know i believe that.
But I believe the story said that people who just came there were sent back to europe before they did anything.
But in general i was talking about people who have these thoughts and inclinations.

shew... lol.. good to know! be safe.