"They hate our way of life"

[halik]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Read OBL's "letter to America" and the very first, the FIRST reasons he mentions are:

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

(a) You attacked us in Palestine

(b) You attacked us in Somalia

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

He then goes on to describe why we are a morally bankrupt and corrupt nation. But in order for you to skip over all of the above and move right into the sex, drugs and rock'n'roll that Osama also hates, you'd have to have your head wedged tightly into a large hole in the ground.

This is exactly correct. OBL and Al Qaeda may indeed hate us for many reasons, but their reason for 9/11 and the rest of the Al Qaeda-based terrorism is to get us out of the Middle East. From their point of view, if we engaged in our evil ways within our own boundaries, they'd think we were swine, but they'd simply ignore us.

This "They hate our way of life" as an explanation of why they attacked us is pablum for the weak minded.

exactly,
it was the infidels in saudi arabia (more precisely, our military bases in the 'holy land' after the gulf war) that pisses them off. It's not you picket white fence and BBQ, but rather foreign policy that affects their lives.

 

[Vic]

The murder of innocents is unjustifiable, regardless of cause, circumstance, or motive. Terrorism is NOT war. It is crime.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Odd how this discussion has morphed from "They hate our values" to the "Hating our values is the reason they attacked us."

That's shifting the goalposts and is not what was being discussed. OBL has outlined reasons for the attacks and reasons why he despises the US. He does hate our values. Is that solely why he attacked? Of course not. There are other reasons too, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he hates our values.

Which is meaningless since our values is not why he attacked us. We could go around and around in circles all day I suppose.

It's one of the reasons that's rolled up into the fact that he wants to convert us all to Islam or see us die.

An yes, we can keep going around and around on this if you don't want to accept that fact that he gives numerous reasons for attacking, far more than just our meddling or occupation in the ME.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Odd how this discussion has morphed from "They hate our values" to the "Hating our values is the reason they attacked us."

That's shifting the goalposts and is not what was being discussed. OBL has outlined reasons for the attacks and reasons why he despises the US. He does hate our values. Is that solely why he attacked? Of course not. There are other reasons too, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he hates our values.

Which is meaningless since our values is not why he attacked us. We could go around and around in circles all day I suppose.

It's one of the reasons that's rolled up into the fact that he wants to convert us all to Islam or see us die.

An yes, we can keep going around and around on this if you don't want to accept that fact that he gives numerous reasons for attacking, far more than just our meddling or occupation in the ME.

I already "accepted the fact" if you read my post above. Of course there are a myriad of reasons, but I care most (as should everyone) about why he attacked us. He can hate us all he wants as long as he leaves us alone. It's why he attacked that's key and germane to any discussion of terrorism in general or AQ specifically.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Odd how this discussion has morphed from "They hate our values" to the "Hating our values is the reason they attacked us."

That's shifting the goalposts and is not what was being discussed. OBL has outlined reasons for the attacks and reasons why he despises the US. He does hate our values. Is that solely why he attacked? Of course not. There are other reasons too, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he hates our values.

Which is meaningless since our values is not why he attacked us. We could go around and around in circles all day I suppose.

It's one of the reasons that's rolled up into the fact that he wants to convert us all to Islam or see us die.

An yes, we can keep going around and around on this if you don't want to accept that fact that he gives numerous reasons for attacking, far more than just our meddling or occupation in the ME.

I already "accepted the fact" if you read my post above. Of course there are a myriad of reasons, but I care most (as should everyone) about why he attacked us. He can hate us all he wants as long as he leaves us alone. It's why he attacked that's key and germane to any discussion of terrorism in general or AQ specifically.

It seems you didn't accept that fact. You claimed:

"Which is meaningless since our values is not why he attacked us. We could go around and around in circles all day I suppose."

I claim our values is one of many reasons he attacked us.

So am I missing something in your reply?

 

[DealMonkey]

Dude, you're giving me a migraine. Please, go READ the letter to America and look for the question, "(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?"

And then see if you can follow the points that follow this question.

<takes advil>

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I claim our values is one of many reasons he attacked us.

No one's arguing that. Read what I've bolded in both of the articles I've posted. The real problem is the way Bush and Blair are trying to take advantage of this situation: making the general public feel that they are somehow responsible for this because of the life they have chosen to live. In this way, they hope to stand side by side with their people who were fed up with their policies and becoming increasingly disgusted with them. Now, they are united in a "common enemy". This completely obviates the need to hold the culprits up to account. People whose policies have resulted in the deaths of more innocent people than all terrorist attacks put together.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Dude, you're giving me a migraine. Please, go READ the letter to America and look for the question, "(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?"

And then see if you can follow the points that follow this question.

<takes advil>

I can follow this that he states towards the end of his letter:

"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation."

Hope the Advil helps.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I claim our values is one of many reasons he attacked us.

No one's arguing that. Read what I've bolded in both of the articles I've posted. The real problem is the way Bush and Blair are trying to take advantage of this situation: making the general public feel that they are somehow responsible for this because of the life they have chosen to live. In this way, they hope to stand side by side with their people who were fed up with their policies and becoming increasingly disgusted with them. Now, they are united in a "common enemy". This completely obviates the need to hold the culprits up to account. People whose policies have resulted in the deaths of more innocent people than all terrorist attacks put together.

You seem to be saying you agree with OBL. Am I reading you right?

If so, sorry, I don't. I doubt much of America agrees with him or you either.

Besides that, his demands are poor excuses provided as a front to hide behind the fact that he got pissed solely because the US usurped his gloriously egocentric dream of driving Saddam out of Kuwait.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I claim our values is one of many reasons he attacked us.

No one's arguing that. Read what I've bolded in both of the articles I've posted. The real problem is the way Bush and Blair are trying to take advantage of this situation: making the general public feel that they are somehow responsible for this because of the life they have chosen to live. In this way, they hope to stand side by side with their people who were fed up with their policies and becoming increasingly disgusted with them. Now, they are united in a "common enemy". This completely obviates the need to hold the culprits up to account. People whose policies have resulted in the deaths of more innocent people than all terrorist attacks put together.

You seem to be saying you agree with OBL. Am I reading you right?

Sorry. It's one thing to be insistent on a weak argument. It's totally another to sway the discussion into complete hogwash.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If so, sorry, I don't. I doubt much of America agrees with him or you either.

I'm glad pleasing America and Americans is not the sole purpose of my existence.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I claim our values is one of many reasons he attacked us.

No one's arguing that. Read what I've bolded in both of the articles I've posted. The real problem is the way Bush and Blair are trying to take advantage of this situation: making the general public feel that they are somehow responsible for this because of the life they have chosen to live. In this way, they hope to stand side by side with their people who were fed up with their policies and becoming increasingly disgusted with them. Now, they are united in a "common enemy". This completely obviates the need to hold the culprits up to account. People whose policies have resulted in the deaths of more innocent people than all terrorist attacks put together.

You seem to be saying you agree with OBL. Am I reading you right?

Sorry. It's one thing to be insistent on a weak argument. It's totally another to sway the discussion into complete hogwash.

Then why don't you state precisely where you stand? Because I find your position a bit muddied on this entire issue due to your previous statements. Your words seem to leave little leeway to an alternate conclusion.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If so, sorry, I don't. I doubt much of America agrees with him or you either.

I'm glad pleasing America and Americans is not the sole purpose of my existence.

I have no doubt that pleasing America is not one of your priorities, nor am I implying it must be. However, I'd like to know if it's even one of your considerations.

 

[Moonbeam]

They attacked us because they hate themselves. They are angry because they feel small and want any way at all to deny it. Killing innocent people makes them feel important because being hated by most people is better than no attention at all.

It is really just that simple.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Dude, you're giving me a migraine. Please, go READ the letter to America and look for the question, "(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?"

And then see if you can follow the points that follow this question.

<takes advil>

I can follow this that he states towards the end of his letter:

"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation."

Hope the Advil helps.

So let's try this again. When the question of "Why did we attack you?" is asked and then the following answer is given, are you directly ignoring this Q&A or are you delusionally filling in your OWN answer to the question?

Let me repeat the reasons why they attacked us:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

So, one more time -- let me ask you if you now understand why al Qaeda attacked us?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So, one more time -- let me ask you if you now understand why al Qaeda attacked us?

One more time, why he attacked us does not matter. He also set out conditions. Acutally they are more than conditions, they are demands.

There's no way in hell I'm going to become a Muslim or comply with any of his other demands. So what is his reply?

"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation."

The basic premise of this topic is that 'they hate our way of life.' That is true, there's no denying it, and trying to wiggle out of that by caveating the situation doesn't change that fact.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
"They hate our way of life"

Oderint dum metuant.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So, one more time -- let me ask you if you now understand why al Qaeda attacked us?

One more time, why he attacked us does not matter. He also set out conditions. Acutally they are more than conditions, they are demands.

Why he attacked us doesn't matter? Are you insane? Of course it matters.

There's no way in hell I'm going to become a Muslim or comply with any of his other demands. So what is his reply?

Me either. So of course his reply is a big "F you, buddy!"

"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation."

Well, we were already in a fight with the "Islamic Nation," or at least OBL's version of it, as soon as he attacked us. So to say if we don't comply with his conditions prepare for a fight seems rather redundant.

The basic premise of this topic is that 'they hate our way of life.' That is true, there's no denying it, and trying to wiggle out of that by caveating the situation doesn't change that fact.

And as I've said, let them hate so long as they leave us the hell alone.

And why are you being a topic nazi? Certainly we're all free to bring up other points, which is what I'm trying to do here. Very, very relevant points. And considering the OP seems to be in agreement with me here in the sense that "hating us for our freedoms" is an overly-simplistic and myopic PoV, I think that should be allowed.

Don't you?

 

[Moonbeam]

"One more time, why he attacked us does not matter."

If you care nothing of what may be truth you can die.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
"They hate our way of life"

Oderint dum metuant.

Negligere quid de se quisque sentiat, non solum arrogantis est, sed etiam omnino dissoluti.

 

[piasabird]

So you are recommending we get our news from Al-jezeera?

They are nothing but a pro-terrorism channel. If you are listening to them you must be a terrorist or in favor of terrorism.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So you are recommending we get our news from Al-jezeera?

They are nothing but a pro-terrorism channel. If you are listening to them you must be a terrorist or in favor of terrorism.

 

[Orsorum]

Well, without having read most of the other bullsh!t posted in this thread, I think there's a very important distinction to make:

The OP's title meant that we were attacked by Osama Bin Laden solely because, or chiefly because, he hates our moral code and social customs. Any other reasons, which OBL has stated publicly, are an excuse or a sidebar from the main point: a clash of Islamic versus Christian civilization and morality.

Distinguish that from asking merely whether OBL does hate our "way of life", which I think is obvious. Hell, there are times where I despise American culture (Desperate Housewives, anyone?). But in that context, to act like our "way of life" is the sole reason for OBL's hatred of the United States is convenient for two reason: It removes any culpability from the United States in instigating the attacks upon us, and it absolves us of any responsibility in changing the conditions and attitudes that perpetuate OBL's quest.

I think most of the defenders of that statement in this thread are implying the former.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The OP's title meant that we were attacked by Osama Bin Laden solely because, or chiefly because, he hates our moral code and social customs.

Uh...no. The purpose of this post is to highlight the false mantra instigated by Blair and Bush that is making headlines around the world: "they hate our way of life". Whatever the real reasons may be ... whatever, this is NOT the main reason. Why? You know why:

Originally posted by: Orsorum
It removes any culpability from the United States in instigating the attacks upon us, and it absolves us of any responsibility in changing the conditions and attitudes that perpetuate OBL's quest.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
"They hate our way of life"

Oderint dum metuant.

Negligere quid de se quisque sentiat, non solum arrogantis est, sed etiam omnino dissoluti.

Hate to break it to you, but those that control "They" and Obl are not the world. When "They" are free to find out what "they" really believe,,, then I will give a sh!t what "they" think....

Oderint dum metuant.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The OP's title meant that we were attacked by Osama Bin Laden solely because, or chiefly because, he hates our moral code and social customs.

Uh...no. The purpose of this post is to highlight the false mantra instigated by Blair and Bush that is making headlines around the world: "they hate our way of life". Whatever the real reasons may be ... whatever, this is NOT the main reason. Why? You know why:

Originally posted by: Orsorum
It removes any culpability from the United States in instigating the attacks upon us, and it absolves us of any responsibility in changing the conditions and attitudes that perpetuate OBL's quest.

*sigh* I was supporting your premise, that the claim made in the title is based on my conclusion.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So you are recommending we get our news from Al-jezeera?

They are nothing but a pro-terrorism channel. If you are listening to them you must be a terrorist or in favor of terrorism.

And you know this how?