"They hate our way of life"

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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"They hate our way of life"

Insight 16 July 2005
with Rob Greene

There's a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where King Arthur confronts a black knight, who challenges him to a duel. Arthur lops off one of his opponent's arms, but the black knight keeps taunting him. "Snick!" There goes the other arm, then one leg and then another, until the knight is reduced to a mere trunk, with blood spurting in all directions. But still he doesn't give up. "Come on then, you coward, do your worst!" he shouts, or words to that effect. Funny thing, defiance.

After the initial shock at watching the horrific images from London last week, the predominant feeling I had was one of admiration for the way the police and emergency services went about their business. They'd trained for just such a situation, of course, but perhaps without expecting ever having to do it for real. They rose to the grisly task magnificently, as far as I could see. My admiration, though, was as nothing compared with the adulation Londoners - egged on by the media - heaped on themselves. Everything, from the spirit of the Blitz to the inherent strength of the multicultural community, was trotted out, as if to suggest that, far from a city being hit without warning by an invisible enemy we had actually witnessed a major victory over the terrorists. "London 1 - Al Qaeda 0" said one headline. Huh?

Prime Minister Tony Blair added to the confusion by informing us on the one hand that the sole purpose of these evil men is to maim and kill (in the absence of a serious political agenda) and, on the other, claiming that the terrorists will never succeed. For men who want to maim and kill - and nothing else - they'd just succeeded remarkably well, I thought. Nor could the WTC, Bali and Madrid be classified as dismal failures, from a maiming and killing point of view.

The Blairs and Bushes of this world are in a bit of a cleft stick over terrorism. Unwilling to admit that there are political motives behind the attacks (opposition to American world dominance, to its friendly relations with undemocratic but oil-rich regimes in the Middle East, to its unquestioning support of Israel and, more recently, to the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq) they have no other explanation to offer than the existence of groups of people who kill others - and frequently themselves - for the sheer hell of it. Not very persuasive -and that's why a new reason has been added to the mantra: "they hate our way of life". Oh right.

So that's why I may in the near future be reduced to a mess on the pavement: they hate my way of life. They've never in my 64 years hated my way of life enough to blow me to bits, but now I'm told they do. Pull the other one, boys. It's a con, designed to keep your public on side. A political motive behind terrorism would suggest that there is a political way to deal with it. This Bush and Blair are not prepared to do. Much better, then, to give people the idea that somehow not governments and their actions are the cause but the general public, the men and women in the street themselves. We're guilty, because of our way of life. There's nothing our leaders can or will do to protect us, so we must take it on the chin and raise our fists in defiance. "Come on you cowards! Do your worst! You won't get us down! We'll keep our way of life!" I can see the bombers of trains and buses shaking with helpless laughter already.

So now we wait to see whose way of life will next arouse the anger of evil men. Could it be the Italians, whose taste for extravagant shirts and artichokes alarms even non-Arabs? Or Denmark, where the Danish way of life - including a diet rich in raw eggs - is now being protected by the most draconian immigration policy in Europe? Or could it be the Netherlands, where our hateful predilections include cannabis, free sex, gay marriage, euthanasia and salt-cured herring with onions and pickle? The same Netherlands where Islamic fundamentalism is currently on trial in the person of Mohammed Bouyeri, the killer of Theo van Gogh? I hope not, but if we're due some punishment at least we'll know it's our own fault, not that of our elected leaders. With the blood of innocents running down the gutter there's only one course of action. Be defiant, that'll teach these evil men.

Link

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I have been listening to CBC Radio One for some time now and using my nifty mp3 player to record anything I like. So far it's all bits and pieces of various documentaries. When I get it all together at a later point in time, I might upload the sound files.

CBC Radio Overnight consists of the best of radio broadcasting from all around the world, including Radio Netherlands. That's where this article comes from.

The following is my opinion on the article:

Despite its brevity and simple language, it struck me on several levels. First and foremost, the Orwellian connection is inescapable. The portrayal of such incidents immersed in party rhetoric takes away from the positive lessons that can be learned.

A very small percentage of the global Muslim community condones this kind of activity. A smaller percentage of these people then actually carry out these attacks. An even smaller portion of these extremists do it simply out of cold blood. The lesson of course being that there are underlying causes for such expressions of hate and anger. They dont "hate your way of life", they hate how you (the west) have accentuated their problems and tried to take advantage of their internal turmoil and weaknesses.

Much has been said in recent weeks and months about dealing with the problem of terrorism at its roots. That is akin to digging up your own dirty past. It's easy to make such categorical statements that divide the world into two camps. In this day and age when the average person gets most of his information from 5-minute soundbites on the run, it achieves precisely the effect desired by the state: everyone united in ignorance against the evil, freedom-hating terrorists who hate their way of life and will stop at nothing to achieve their sinister goals.

A hypocritical, unilateral and aggressive foreign policy is a big part of the problem. Meddling with the affairs of independent nations for material gains also plays a significant role. This includes propping up unpopular potentates who enjoy brutal repression of dissent. The results of this kind of conduct are in front of your eyes and need no explanation.

The new-found role of the west as the champion of human rights and bearer of the democratic beacon comes with a responsibility to avoid mistakes of the past. One has to go back only 60 years to see western values in action. The modern plague of terrorism pales in comparison. With this backdrop, one can only be too cautious with where the west is tyring to lead the world today.

On the Islamic front, a lack of mostly Islamic education is to blame for such extreme and abnormal interpretations of the noble Qur'an. A concerted effort would be required to undo the damages of years of ignorance. It is being done and I can attest to this fact.

As for North America, I think Al-Jazeera can do wonders in combating ignorance. Its bias can only help offset what's already there. ;)

Please keep this discussion civil and ignore the flamebaits.


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*Video*
Man speaks truth on Iraq
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

and "they hate our way of life" isn't rhetorical bullsh|t?
 

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,135
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

Tell me something. When has a single letter/video/audio tape from bin Laden, the Taliban or Al-Zarqawi ever been independently verified? I don't have any faith in any of these "letters" that keep making their way into the media at convenient times.

Having said that, please make the effort to provide a link to this "letter" from bin Laden and show us how he "hates your way of life".
 

ScottFern

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2002
3,629
2
76
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
"They hate our way of life"


The Blairs and Bushes of this world are in a bit of a cleft stick over terrorism. Unwilling to admit that there are political motives behind the attacks (opposition to American world dominance, to its friendly relations with undemocratic but oil-rich regimes in the Middle East, to its unquestioning support of Israel and, more recently, to the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq) they have no other explanation to offer than the existence of groups of people who kill others - and frequently themselves - for the sheer hell of it. Not very persuasive -and that's why a new reason has been added to the mantra: "they hate our way of life". Oh right.

Please keep this discussion civil and ignore the flamebaits.

I do recognize the fact that the British and Americans overlook the Israel issue. However, they did crash into the twin towers before the Iraqi and Afghan invasion. So you can't classify that as a reason for 9/11. So what was it that finally was the last straw that broke the camels back on 9/11? Our relationship with the Saudis....uh no. I believe yes, Osama and the Taliban hate our way of life combined with our full support of Israel that maybe a lot of the reason. But I don't know if we can ever realize the total reason behind such henious attacks.

 

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,135
0
0
Originally posted by: ScottFern
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
"They hate our way of life"


The Blairs and Bushes of this world are in a bit of a cleft stick over terrorism. Unwilling to admit that there are political motives behind the attacks (opposition to American world dominance, to its friendly relations with undemocratic but oil-rich regimes in the Middle East, to its unquestioning support of Israel and, more recently, to the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq) they have no other explanation to offer than the existence of groups of people who kill others - and frequently themselves - for the sheer hell of it. Not very persuasive -and that's why a new reason has been added to the mantra: "they hate our way of life". Oh right.

Please keep this discussion civil and ignore the flamebaits.

I do recognize the fact that the British and Americans overlook the Israel issue. However, they did crash into the twin towers before the Iraqi and Afghan invasion. So you can't classify that as a reason for 9/11. So what was it that finally was the last straw that broke the camels back on 9/11? Our relationship with the Saudis....uh no. I believe yes, Osama and the Taliban hate our way of life combined with our full support of Israel that maybe a lot of the reason. But I don't know if we can ever realize the total reason behind such henious attacks.

Have you forgotten the first gulf war and the American involvement in the middle-east evern since? What made bin Laden what he is today?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,584
81
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

and "they hate our way of life" isn't rhetorical bullsh|t?
read the letter, OBL spells it out pretty clearly.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,585
6,713
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

and "they hate our way of life" isn't rhetorical bullsh|t?

And there is a huge difference between denying the guilt he feels and being past feeling it.

But it would be wonderful if we could really be what we pretend, and bluster and stamping of one feet was all it took, when the truth is we feel so guilty we are terrified to know it.

If you want to know what guiltless looks like, look at the way Christ sought revenge.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
I think I can boil this entire thing down to a single paragraph.

Moral values and the ends that people are will to go to preserve/push them differ - but not by much. When you get down to it, "we" are quite happy with our collective culture and not liable to change for "them". That's not rhetoric - that's the essence of the struggle. Differing values. Neither of us wish to change, and so they will continue kill for their values, and we will kill for ours. On top of that, "we" will plop down in the middle of "their" home turf and offer our values to the locals. Stick to that path - killing off the violent and converting the rest - and soon enough you've achieved harmony once again.

(Words in quotation marks are specifically meant as sarcasm; I'm of course not talking about all Muslims or all ____'s, just the select few; etc.)
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

and "they hate our way of life" isn't rhetorical bullsh|t?
read the letter, OBL spells it out pretty clearly.
Exactly. "They" - being people like bin Laden - have specifically expressed that they hate our way of life. Even if the sloganeering goes against your grain, you should at least admit the truth of it.

And for the person asking whether the letter really comes from bin Laden, watch some of his videos instead.
 

johnnobts

Golden Member
Jun 26, 2005
1,105
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71
they hate us for a myriad of reasons. by the way, to those of you who think i mean all muslims (conjur), i'm focusing on the islamo-fascists...

they hate us for:
our secular culture (which they consider crude and pagan)
our zionism
our relative wealth vs. their relative poverty
our Christian faith ("kill the Christian, kill the Jew" a popular chant rooted in their texts), especially evangelistic believers
our view of equality b/c men and women
our "winning in the Crusades." Many of these want to relive the glory days of the Islamic empire, to return to the era of Sala al Din (Saladin). While the West has prospered, their region has not
the fact that they are taught to hate us in their little wahabism schools

some people don't need much of a reason to hate others, hate is something that comes very easily to all mankind...
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
The muslim radicals and many muslims hate the west, they hate our success and their hate anything non-Islamic. They want to establish a caliphate in Southeast Asia. Even Singapore's President said that. They want Islamic rule in Thailand to Indonesia and all across that region.

There is a crusade going on and it is between the Islamic and non-Islamic world.

They can't stand our way of life, our denegraded and slutty culture.

But then why do these muslim men love American women so much?

I wonder why.

9/11 woke me up hard. I realized that this will be a long and hard struggle between two cultures. One that wants to move forward, the other that wants to drag the world into the 7th century. We don't know who will win and who will lose, or maybe both sides will lose or both sides will win. Muslims are ramping up their attacks in India and other countries where they are supposedly fighting for land.

Lets take a step back: most muslim lands today have been conquered by the sword. Islam in many ways has been spread by the sword. That has a impact on a society.

Lets just hope the future generation of muslims is not as easily brainwashed as this generation.

The Iranian youth should be the role model for all upcoming muslims. The Iranians today are smart, well educated and hungry for an opportunity. They also love America.

God bless them.

But according to a poll, it seems only 2 countries like us: India and Poland.
 

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,135
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.

and "they hate our way of life" isn't rhetorical bullsh|t?
read the letter, OBL spells it out pretty clearly.
Exactly. "They" - being people like bin Laden - have specifically expressed that they hate our way of life. Even if the sloganeering goes against your grain, you should at least admit the truth of it.

And for the person asking whether the letter really comes from bin Laden, watch some of his videos instead.

All I've gathered from the translations of bin Laden's speeches from the various new networks is that he hates America because of its involvement in the affairs of Muslim countries. Nothing to suggest that he hates America simply because of its values.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.


They hate our way of life is more like they hate how we blindly support Israel and if we stopped supporting them our terrorist troubles would start to go away FAST.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: raildogg
The muslim radicals and many muslims hate the west, they hate our success and their hate anything non-Islamic. They want to establish a caliphate in Southeast Asia. Even Singapore's President said that. They want Islamic rule in Thailand to Indonesia and all across that region.

There is a crusade going on and it is between the Islamic and non-Islamic world.

They can't stand our way of life, our denegraded and slutty culture.

But then why do these muslim men love American women so much?

I wonder why.

9/11 woke me up hard. I realized that this will be a long and hard struggle between two cultures. One that wants to move forward, the other that wants to drag the world into the 7th century. We don't know who will win and who will lose, or maybe both sides will lose or both sides will win. Muslims are ramping up their attacks in India and other countries where they are supposedly fighting for land.

Lets take a step back: most muslim lands today have been conquered by the sword. Islam in many ways has been spread by the sword. That has a impact on a society.

Lets just hope the future generation of muslims is not as easily brainwashed as this generation.

The Iranian youth should be the role model for all upcoming muslims. The Iranians today are smart, well educated and hungry for an opportunity. They also love America.

God bless them.

But according to a poll, it seems only 2 countries like us: India and Poland.


You must be really good at making things up on the fly. "The Iranians today are smart and love America". "Islam has been spread by the sword". Where do you come up with this BS. I don't believe you're out of High School with these kind of poorly written posts.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,584
81
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
All I've gathered from the translations of bin Laden's speeches from the various new networks is that he hates America because of its involvement in the affairs of Muslim countries. Nothing to suggest that he hates America simply because of its values.
Lol, its hard to lose any in the translation, Google "Bin Laden Letter" he speficially mentions Gambling, Drinking, Promiscuous Sex, Anti-Semitism, Exploitation of Women, Homosexuality, making interest off of loans, etc. he evens goes as far to say that we are evil for the simple fact we dont follow the Koran.

 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
All I've gathered from the translations of bin Laden's speeches from the various new networks is that he hates America because of its involvement in the affairs of Muslim countries. Nothing to suggest that he hates America simply because of its values.
Lol, its hard to lose any in the translation, Google "Bin Laden Letter" he speficially mentions Gambling, Drinking, Promiscuous Sex, Anti-Semitism, Exploitation of Women, Homosexuality, making interest off of loans, etc. he evens goes as far to say that we are evil for the simple fact we dont follow the Koran.

Except that nobody should give a damn that he hates us for those reasons. They should, however, care that he attacks us because of our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Read bin Laden's letter after the 9/11 attacks.

They - and to define "they," we are talking about the Islamic militant extremists and not all Muslims - do hate our way of life. Anyone who wants to deny that is turning a blind eye to the truth.

Besides that, I'm way over the old Chomsky meme (It's all our fault."). It's lame, superficial, and targets those who feel guilt about anything. Other than that it's nothing but rhetorical bullsh!t.


They hate our way of life is more like they hate how we blindly support Israel and if we stopped supporting them our terrorist troubles would start to go away FAST.


So, is Israel the sole reason?

You would think bin Laden would have given us some points for helping his fellow Muslims overthrow the Soviets in Afghanistan and for preventing the genocide of other fellow Muslims in Bosnia but I guess supporting Israel is just too much for him to stomach.
 

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,135
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
All I've gathered from the translations of bin Laden's speeches from the various new networks is that he hates America because of its involvement in the affairs of Muslim countries. Nothing to suggest that he hates America simply because of its values.
Lol, its hard to lose any in the translation, Google "Bin Laden Letter" he speficially mentions Gambling, Drinking, Promiscuous Sex, Anti-Semitism, Exploitation of Women, Homosexuality, making interest off of loans, etc. he evens goes as far to say that we are evil for the simple fact we dont follow the Koran.

You consider gambling, drinking, exploitation of women, promiscuous sex and homosexuality American values? These and other social problems are abound in many other parts of the world. South America, much of Asia, many parts of Europe etc. Who has been meddling in middle eastern/Muslim affairs though?

Regardless, I am not denying that some do it simply because of "American values". But there are many other underlying causes.

You are doing precisely what I am denouncing. Read what I have bolded in the article.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Many of them may hate our way of life but that's not why they are fighting. Similarly, Bin Laden may talk about gambling but that's not why he is fighting. Heck, I don't really like the Muslim way of life, but I'm not going to kill them over it. Similarly, a lot of conservatives make wide-ranging arguments about Muslim civilization being evil or what not, but that's probably not what directs their policy. A lot of the rhetoric is just piled on BECAUSE the other side is the enemy but that is not WHY the other side is the enemy.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
All I've gathered from the translations of bin Laden's speeches from the various new networks is that he hates America because of its involvement in the affairs of Muslim countries. Nothing to suggest that he hates America simply because of its values.
Lol, its hard to lose any in the translation, Google "Bin Laden Letter" he speficially mentions Gambling, Drinking, Promiscuous Sex, Anti-Semitism, Exploitation of Women, Homosexuality, making interest off of loans, etc. he evens goes as far to say that we are evil for the simple fact we dont follow the Koran.

You consider gambling, drinking, exploitation of women, promiscuous sex and homosexuality American values?
No. American values provide the choice of participating in those things or not. As opposed to those that would jail or kill you from participating in the same.

Do you think those are values a person should be jailed or killed for participating in?

These and other social problems are abound in many other parts of the world. South America, much of Asia, many parts of Europe etc. Who has been meddling in middle eastern/Muslim affairs though?
You mean like in Thailand, Bangladesh, the Phillipines, and many countries in Africa?

There are people that love to point fingers about meddling without considering their own "meddling."

Regardless, I am not denying that some do it simply because of "American values". But there are many other underlying causes.

You are doing precisely what I am denouncing. Read what I have bolded in the article.
Who is doing what you are denouncing?
 

GreatBarracuda

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,135
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Many of them may hate our way of life but that's not why they are fighting. Similarly, Bin Laden may talk about gambling but that's not why he is fighting. Heck, I don't really like the Muslim way of life, but I'm not going to kill them over it. Similarly, a lot of conservatives make wide-ranging arguments about Muslim civilization being evil or what not, but that's probably not what directs their policy. A lot of the rhetoric is just piled on BECAUSE the other side is the enemy but that is not WHY the other side is the enemy.

Agreed. What do you think about the article? How accurate is its portrayal of what is actually happening?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
What do you think about the article? How accurate is its portrayal of what is actually happening?

Good opinion piece. It's accurate.
 

randym431

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2003
1,270
1
0
You dont get anywhere poking a stick at a bee's hive.
Bush claims this war is to keep the terrorist over there, not here.
Tell those in London that now.

Blair almost lost re election because of Bush, lies and the war.
It was a wake up call for Blair. So could that be the reason Britts want an exit out of the war, now?

Did Blair finally tell Bush where to stick "HIS" war???