They call it swatting,” says grieving Wichita mother after son killed by police

[woolfe9998]

Eh not necessarily. Men are far more likely to use firearms than women, it doesn't mean men are 'more serious' about taking their life than women are.

Actually, it might mean just that. Those who use pills are likely to be crying for help. Many studies have been done on this.

 

[fskimospy]

You missed the word lethal in my post. Nonetheless, firearms is definitely the most common method of suicide completion in the US (just over half) with overdose (poisoning) ranking in 3rd at ~15%. Suicide attempts, however, are much more likely to be via overdose by an enormous amount (difficult to precisely quantify). This underscores how guns are much more lethal.

As for defensive gun use, certainly that outweighs gun suicides. How often that use occurs is very difficult to quantify as is how effective it is at actually preventing crimes.

Actually the most common thing to use a gun for is committing a crime. Defensive gun use may come in after that but a very important note on 'defensive gun use' is that the things people describe as defensive gun use are often crimes in and of themselves.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730664/

Results—Even after excluding many reported firearm victimizations, far more survey respondents report having been threatened or intimidated with a gun than having used a gun to protect themselves. A majority of the reported self defense gun uses were rated as probably illegal by a majority of judges. This was so even under the assumption that the respondent had a permit to own and carry the gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly.

Defensive gun use is mostly bullshit.

 

[Dangerpig]

Actually, it might mean just that. Those who use pills are likely to be crying for help. Many studies have been done on this.

You are so far off on that. Correlation does not imply causation. Someone taking pills are just as serious as someone using a firearm. It's what you have available at the time that makes the difference. Sorry I majored in psychology. Leave it to the people who know what they're talking about in the case.

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[Dangerpig]

Actually the most common thing to use a gun for is committing a crime. Defensive gun use may come in after that but a very important note on 'defensive gun use' is that the things people describe as defensive gun use are often crimes in and of themselves.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730664/



Defensive gun use is mostly bullshit.

What you quoted is 12 years old. Times have changed greatly, you can't rely on information that old.

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[Dangerpig]

Also, probably illegal isn't the same as illegal.

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[Dangerpig]

Would you like some evidence showing the efficacy of means restriction (specifically firearms) as a method of preventing suicide? You'd need to craft a search query to find when I've posted it before. It would be exhausting to do it again.

I did a research paper on this when I was in college. It doesn't matter if the society has firearms or not. If someone is going to take their life they will figure out a way to do it.

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[fskimospy]

What you quoted is 12 years old. Times have changed greatly, you can't rely on information that old.

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On what possible grounds are you saying the manner in which gun owners use their guns has changed over the last 12 years?

Of course we can rely on information that old, don't be silly. If you have a more recent study that evaluates the nature of what people claim as defensive gun use then by all means provide it. If you don't, then the point stands. 'Defensive gun use' is often criminal activity.

 

[Dangerpig]

On what possible grounds are you saying the manner in which gun owners use their guns has changed over the last 12 years?

Of course we can rely on information that old, don't be silly. If you have a more recent study that evaluates the nature of what people claim as defensive gun use then by all means provide it. If you don't, then the point stands. 'Defensive gun use' is often criminal activity.

No, it's not. Even with your quote. It didn't define it at being criminal, it says it probably was but was ruled otherwise. Read it.

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[fskimospy]

No, it's not. Even with your quote. It didn't define it at being criminal, it says it probably was but was ruled otherwise. Read it.

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It did not say 'probably but ruled otherwise'. You should read it more closely.

I don't know what else to tell you, the results from the abstract are quite clear. Defensive gun use is most likely criminal activity a significant portion of the time.

 

[fskimospy]

I did a research paper on this when I was in college. It doesn't matter if the society has firearms or not. If someone is going to take their life they will figure out a way to do it.

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I know you majored in psychology and all but you realize you're talking to an actual psychiatrist, right? (at least that's what he is to the best of my memory) You suggested leaving it to the people who know what they are talking about, right? Well, that's him. I've read the research as well and access to firearms is a major risk factor for completed suicide.

 

[Dangerpig]

It did not say 'probably but ruled otherwise'. You should read it more closely.

I don't know what else to tell you, the results from the abstract are quite clear. Defensive gun use is most likely criminal activity a significant portion of the time.

"Conclusions—Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self defense. Most self reported self defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society"

That's the quote from the article. "may well be" is not the same thing as is.

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[Dangerpig]

I know you majored in psychology and all but you realize you're talking to an actual psychiatrist, right? (at least that's what he is to the best of my memory) You suggested leaving it to the people who know what they are talking about, right? Well, that's him. I've read the research as well and access to firearms is a major risk factor for completed suicide.

Yeah, what do you think my backup job was going to be in case I needed it. I have a psych degree. I did the research myself and I said basically the same thing you did with one exception - having a firearm or not people will still kill themselves successfully. Countries that don't have access to firearms still kill themselves at a much higher rate.

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[fskimospy]

"Conclusions—Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self defense. Most self reported self defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society"

That's the quote from the article. "may well be" is not the same thing as is.

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Are you fucking kidding me. If you've read any social research in your life you would know that they never express certainty as to causes. If you actually bother to read the paper you will see these are evaluations by judges of people's own descriptions of their behavior, which if anything is biased in favor of defensive gun use not being criminal.

If you've got literally any evidence to push back against what I linked then provide it. If not, then just admit you can't. What you're doing now is hand waving away research that tells you things you don't want to hear.

 

[woolfe9998]

You are so far off on that. Correlation does not imply causation. Someone taking pills are just as serious as someone using a firearm. It's what you have available at the time that makes the difference. Sorry I majored in psychology. Leave it to the people who know what they're talking about in the case.

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LOL I majored in pscyh as well and got a bachelors in it prior to law school. And what I said which you replied to is what I recall from psych courses. Those who use pills are generally crying for help and are not as serious about actually dying. Those who use firearms generally want to die. Kind of makes sense since most times people who take pills end up throwing them up before enough enters their bloodstream to kill them.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, what do you think my backup job was going to be in case I needed it. I have a psych degree. I did the research myself and I said basically the same thing you did with one exception - having a firearm or not people will still kill themselves successfully. Countries that don't have access to firearms still kill themselves at a much higher rate.

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When I was a kid I thought about being an astronaut so by all means everyone if you have any questions about flying a spacecraft you can direct them at me because I'm pretty much the same thing. He's an expert, you're not. Turns out you didn't actually care about expertise at all, huh.

If you did the research yourself you did so incompetently. The actual, competent empirical research on the issue is very clear that gun ownership significantly increases your risk for completed suicide. I can link you a dozen or more papers on this. If you think that gun ownership does not increase risk for completed suicide please provide literally any peer reviewed research that says as much.

 

[Dangerpig]

LOL I majored in pscyh as well. And what I said which you replied to is what I recall from psych courses. Those who use pills are generally crying for help and are not as serious about actually dying. Those who use firearms generally want to die. Kind of makes sense since most times people who take pills end up throwing them up before enough enters their bloodstream to kill them.

That's so far off it's not even funny. Again, it's what people have access to. If they only have access to pills that may be the route they take. If they have access to a firearm, it's sudden. If they had access to pills that would kill them instantly they would probably use them. Suicide is a fickle thing. A cry for help it's a cry for help. Often times suicide was a cry for help but it was successful. Suicide attempts would have been successful but there was some type of intervention.

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[s0me0nesmind1]

You are so far off on that. Correlation does not imply causation. Someone taking pills are just as serious as someone using a firearm. It's what you have available at the time that makes the difference. Sorry I majored in psychology. Leave it to the people who know what they're talking about in the case.

I'm sorry, I don't care what side you're on in this debate but that just made me cackle with laughter. Beer is now on my monitor...

 

[Dangerpig]

When I was a kid I thought about being an astronaut so by all means everyone if you have any questions about flying a spacecraft you can direct them at me because I'm pretty much the same thing. He's an expert, you're not. Turns out you didn't actually care about expertise at all, huh.

If you did the research yourself you did so incompetently. The actual, competent empirical research on the issue is very clear that gun ownership significantly increases your risk for completed suicide. I can link you a dozen or more papers on this. If you think that gun ownership does not increase risk for completed suicide please provide literally any peer reviewed research that says as much.

Wow, you're not reading what I'm saying at all. I have stated MULTIPLE times about access. What they have on hand. Ownership has nothing to do with it (of a sort). Having access to a firearm is an (highly) increased risk of it being successful. We've been saying the same thing on that.

And again you misunderstand. I went to college for phycology, that was my intent. I completed college with those degrees but I decided to go into law enforcement. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, your drawing a different conclusion because you didn't understand a specific thing I stated.

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[SlowSpyder]

What he said was factually inaccurate. I corrected him. That is all.

However, since you mention it, overdosing is in fact the most common method of attempting suicide, but it's nowhere close to the success rate of firearms. That's because firearms are far more effective at it. Of that there is no doubt.

And I believe the most effective method is jumping off of tall structures, but it isn't used as often.

 

[Dangerpig]

And I believe the most effective method is jumping off of tall structures, but it isn't used as often.

I'm other countries such as Canada it is. I'll have to find my research so I can quote it all.

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[woolfe9998]

That's so far off it's not even funny. Again, it's what people have access to. If they only have access to pills that may be the route they take. If they have access to a firearm, it's sudden. If they had access to pills that would kill them instantly they would probably use them. Suicide is a fickle thing. A cry for help it's a cry for help. Often times suicide was a cry for help but it was successful. Suicide attempts would have been successful but there was some type of intervention.

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I'm having a hard time believing you actually majored in psych here. Suicide isn't merely a matter of convenient methods. The main thing that stops depressed people from committing suicide is actually fear. Which means the method matters. A quick and painless method offers an easy out.

But let's you say you're correct, that it's only a matter of what is close at hand and otherwise the method is irrelevant. Since firearms have a much higher success rate than pills, perhaps it's best that firearms aren't the method which is "close at hand," meaning suicide rates would undoubtedly drop if fewer people had guns in their homes.

 

[woolfe9998]

And I believe the most effective method is jumping off of tall structures, but it isn't used as often.

No doubt, Jumping off a sky scraper is as close to 100% effective as you can get. So why don't more people do it? Because it's freaking terrifying, that's why. And also, many would rather not commit suicide in a public manner. Which makes firearms the choice for those who actually want to die painlessly, without spending 20 seconds plummeting to their death while screaming in terror, and would rather die while not in full view of the general public.

Firearms are simply the ideal method for suicide. If I wanted to go, that's what I would use.

 

[interchange]

OK well I had to do a search because this was going into silly territory. If you want to read some research, here's a reference list (to start):
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...rida-gun-owners.2460058/page-18#post-38755407

Certainly some societies have higher rates of suicides than others. There is much more to risk of suicide than access to highly lethal means. However, without any doubt access to highly lethal means increases risk of suicide, and removal of that access decreases suicide. The reason why people don't simply kill themselves by other means is multifactorial. For one, suicidal actions are often impulsive or reactive or involving intoxication -- in other words very temporary mental states, so having to go out and seek a method of suicide is prohibitive. Another is that highly suicidal people often have significantly impaired energy and drive and cognitive planning capacity, so the amount of effort needed to complete suicide is prohibitive. Another is access to guns may not prevent an attempt, but the second choice of method is likely to be significantly less lethal. Another is even suicidal humans do have intact mechanisms to prevent them from doing things that involve suffering or protracted suffering, and other factors @woolfe9998 touches on. Another is the method of suicide may be psychologically meaningful. Another is simple availability bias; when someone thinks of a way to definitely end up dead, they may struggle to imagine a method as compelling as shooting themselves. How much any of these factors have to do with someone's choice is really anyone's guess, but the data is clear, and the reasons to explain the data are abundant.

Saying it doesn't work this way is like saying it's OK to leave a bottle of oxys laying out on the coffee table while your teenager is home because if he really wanted to get high, he'd go out and buy drugs off the street anyway.

 

[Dangerpig]

I'm having a hard time believing you actually majored in psych here. Suicide isn't merely a matter of convenient methods. The main thing that stops depressed people from committing suicide is actually fear. Which means the method matters. A quick and painless method offers an easy out.

But let's you say you're correct, that it's only a matter of what is close at hand and otherwise the method is irrelevant. Since firearms have a much higher success rate than pills, perhaps it's best that firearms aren't the method which is "close at hand," meaning suicide rates would undoubtedly drop if fewer people had guns in their homes.

"There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world. According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-brain/201607/fact-check-gun-control-and-suicide

But you are implying that firearm ownership is the reason for higher suicide rate and that's simply not true. Access is the key. Yes, I will admit that having a firearm does give you access to a "simpler" way of making sure the suicide is completed but the facts don't jusify your statements.

 

[interchange]

Actually the most common thing to use a gun for is committing a crime.

I dunno about the "actually" in response to my post. I never asserted anything regarding that, but if we wan't to generate a hierarchy of use of guns in the US:

1. recreation
2. crimes
3. defensive gun use (controversial)
4. suicide attempts
5. suicides

and gun fatalities:

1. suicides
2. homicides
3. accidents
4. defense