There's no pleasing the tea party

[boomerang]

This is the problem. You take an already exorbitantly high cost system and layer on another group of people who can't pay. You are effectively paying for their exorbitantly high costs.

This is why you either get out of medical care and let the open market take care of it, and I mean 100% out (not even 40% in like we had pre-ACA), or you go 100% in and crush providers and suppliers with a monopolistic bargaining technique (accept this or don't supply the market).

Personally I'd be fine with a single payer system.

Got a plan for all the people it will put out of work?

 

[BoberFett]

The problem isn't that the Democrats are moving left or that the Republicans are moving right. It's that both parties are moving full speed ahead to authoritarian on the authoritarian/libertarian axis.

Agreed

 

[nixium]

You're 180 degrees off. The nation would benefit greatly with a very distinct and large separation between the beliefs and desired goals in a two party system. Tea Party and Democrat parties would fill that bill.

The problem is the tea party has a "my way or the highway" approach where if you aren't 100% pure then your ideas are rejected.

This is not the way a democracy should work.

 

[nixium]

I really don't want to sound rude, but you guys really hate fiscal conservatism. Call me stupid, but I can't understand this hatred. Do you think debt is good? How do you manage your personal lives?

Wouldn't you be the least bit worried about a powerful entity that can bust through your doors, and rife though your pockets with nothing but its own corrupt supervision? Don't you need money to live? So isn't this a theat to your very existence?

I really don't think you understand the tea party. I doubt you want to either. You dismiss it like it's some crazy fringe group.

How is not wanting to spend money on social welfare programs utilized by undesirables whose position in life is self-inflicted an illogical, or crazy, motive to a rational mind? You could probably make the case that such a notion is selfish, yes, but crazy?

Really?

This is the lack of empathy/sociopathy part I'm talking about. How do you know *everyone* using these programs is an "undesirable"?

Of course we'll want to stop people from misusing the system but that's not the tea party position now, is it?

Odd, they're against the exact programs that non white people use the most.. hmm... coincidence? Where is the outrage against excessive lobbying and corporate control of the government?

 

[nixium]

Libertarian theory is amazing for mental masturbation.

Too bad for the libertarians we live in the real world where it would be a disaster.

 

[Matt1970]

The problem is the tea party has a "my way or the highway" approach where if you aren't 100% pure then your ideas are rejected.

This is not the way a democracy should work.

The tea party isn't the party that is refusing to negotiate.

 

[nixium]

Not liking to be told what to and when to do it?

Fern

It's the opposite. Not liking any way except theirs and causing misery until they get their way.

Don't confuse the tea partiers with libertarians.

 

[nixium]

Dude, pretty soon even Ted Cruz will be a RINO. The moment he bothers to say something which is only 99% of the most extreme right-wing position imaginable, he'll be deemed guilty of counter-revolutionary thought and black-listed.

As usual, Woolfe nails it on the head. Pity there aren't people like you in congress (if they are, they're heavily marginalized)

 

[nixium]

The Republicans know that the longer this thing go on the more people will revolt against it.

I had two friends that are in open-enrollment right now and another renewing his single-family insurance plan (not group), all 3 had their premiums increased by *at least* 50%. The single family guy had his increase 140% while his deductible went up by $5,000/yr (10k now).

The problem is the half-assed, half-baked and healthcare industry law we have. The government has one hand in the pie but that's it. It either needed to take the whole thing (single payer) or stay out of it. But the problem we have now is that with it being partially in the way it can create, or allow, more market distortions and graft from insurance companies.

Personally, I wish we had a single payer system with the option to partially opt-out to get your own plan (not get whole premium paid back). I think the healthcare companies suck no matter what insurance plan you have. I had a very high-end plan for 5.5yrs and *still* had problems.

You're right, ACA isn't ideal, and I would have liked single payer too. From what I've read though, it cant make the system any worse than it already is (time could prove me wrong.)

At the worst case, it would make it so bad that there's no other avenue than single payer.

 

[nixium]

I don't know if I made that claim. I would claim that they are moving further and further into idiocy and insanity. They are becoming active agents of destruction aiming for the demolition of America. This latest move by the right was absolutely abominable, the must disgusting attack on America since 911. Unfathomably evil and jaw droppingly nefarious are apt descriptions of their actions. Their putrid ways have now been exposed to the entire world and I hope they suffer for their mendacity and depravity.

Excellent description of the current situation, kudos. This is what I think of the tea party as well, and every sane person will eventually come to this conclusion once they dissociate themselves from the emotional payoff of backing "team politics". Unfortunately, I don't believe many can.

 

[nixium]

I agree, we need to pick one system or the other. Truly free market, or fully government run. The hybrid system we have now is the worst possible model, where supply is controlled, cost is uncontrolled, and demand is endless.

Yep, this pretty much sums it up.

Unfortunately, ACA doesn't do this. But hopefully this is an evolution to the next step.

I personally think a true free market solution will eventually not be viable for healthcare and the public will vote itself single payer.. let's see what happens

 

[nixium]

The tea party isn't the party that is refusing to negotiate.

There is nothing to negotiate over. The time for negotiation is past if you're referring to the ACA.

I don't care right or left. Threat of a government shutdown to achieve legislative needs is unacceptable. The parties demanding a clean CR are *always* in the right.

Why should people suffer just because a party couldn't summon the votes to get their legislative needs addressed?

In this case, the tea party is absolutely the one holding government hostage. If you can't see that, then you're hopelessly partisan and probably infected with the mental disease I'm talkign about. Please consult a psychiatrist ASAP or go on a vacation to a different country. Perhaps the change of perspective will help.

 

[Fern]

You're kidding right? Working strictly from my work 410K, it went from 95K at the bottom of 2008 to 400K now. And that was just my work 401k, nevermind my wifes 410K or our Roth IRAs. If that kind of capital appreciation continues unabated for just a few more years (like till the end of Obama's presidency), my retirement accounts will be in extremely healthy condition. Just so you know, I'm in my 40s.

Now what kind of world do you live where the kind of capital appreciation America has enjoyed for the last 5 years isn't fantastic? I have to wonder if all the Tea Partyers are out of the market aren't enjoying the fat returns the rest of America is enjoying. Perhaps it is their jealousy of others that is driving all of this.

2008 was the financial meltdown (it actually bottomed out in '09, not '08). The stock market is herd mentality. It was obviously undervalued due to fears. If you remove that aberration of a year you'll find the market moves slowly. The market was above 14,000 in late '07 and now 6 years later is at 15,000. If it drops now from Washington's BS it will soon rise back again. At this point we're only talking about a small portion of govt workers furloughed.

Honestly, you seem not to realize it but your real concern should be the fed policy and QEF's. When that gravy train stops you'll get hammered and it won't bounce back quick.

Pardon me, I don't seem to sound harsh or rude, but you probably shouldn't even be in the stock market. It's when it moves up or down dramatically that real money can be made. If you knew the rules of the game you'd be playing them to your advantage, not crying about it. If you're as worried as you make out you should call your broker and get some info on stop/loss strategies etc., or least get a book to learn.

Fern

 

[Matt1970]

The last CR was about as clean as you are going to get. If the time for negotiations with the ACA is past, then tell that to Obama. He is the one granting delays and exemptions at will but as soon as a request comes his way he doesn't like it's "holding the country hostage"

 

[Matt1970]

You're kidding right? Working strictly from my work 410K, it went from 95K at the bottom of 2008 to 400K now. And that was just my work 401k, nevermind my wifes 410K or our Roth IRAs. If that kind of capital appreciation continues unabated for just a few more years (like till the end of Obama's presidency), my retirement accounts will be in extremely healthy condition. Just so you know, I'm in my 40s.

Now what kind of world do you live where the kind of capital appreciation America has enjoyed for the last 5 years isn't fantastic? I have to wonder if all the Tea Partyers are out of the market aren't enjoying the fat returns the rest of America is enjoying. Perhaps it is their jealousy of others that is driving all of this.

Good, you are now rich. Please send your money to the government now. Remember, the rich are your mortal enemies.

 

[TerryMathews]

There is nothing to negotiate over. The time for negotiation is past if you're referring to the ACA.

I don't care right or left. Threat of a government shutdown to achieve legislative needs is unacceptable. The parties demanding a clean CR are *always* in the right.

Why should people suffer just because a party couldn't summon the votes to get their legislative needs addressed?

In this case, the tea party is absolutely the one holding government hostage. If you can't see that, then you're hopelessly partisan and probably infected with the mental disease I'm talkign about. Please consult a psychiatrist ASAP or go on a vacation to a different country. Perhaps the change of perspective will help.

Perhaps if the Democrats had considered Republican input when ACA was passed, we wouldn't be in this situation now.

As we have it, we have a bill that no one seems to like D or R.

And I strongly disagree with you that "it can't make things worse". It most certainly can. It crams more people into the same system with the same broken controls and the same inflated costs.

If the formerly uninsured, who would've ended up at urgent care paying cash, now go to the ER with their expanded Medicare, what do you think is going to happen with the difference in cost?

How many more people now qualify for Medicare nationwide?

You all want to make it that Republicans don't want insurance for the poor. That's not it. We just don't want to be paying into a broken system that leaks money and has no controls for personal responsibility.

 

[Fern]

Yep, this pretty much sums it up.

Unfortunately, ACA doesn't do this. But hopefully this is an evolution to the next step.

I personally think a true free market solution will eventually not be viable for healthcare and the public will vote itself single payer.. let's see what happens

Tinkering with how health care is paid for is a distraction from the real underlying problems and will accomplish nothing other than the type of financial upheaval some now fear from the govt shutdown.

Fern

 

[michal1980]

Dude, pretty soon even Ted Cruz will be a RINO. The moment he bothers to say something which is only 99% of the most extreme right-wing position imaginable, he'll be deemed guilty of counter-revolutionary thought and black-listed.

the problem with the left is they think the people that stand with cruz are some minority fringe. your brains are too closed to thinking differently, and when challenged you have to marginalize others to ignore their positions.

Because if the people are fringe there's no point in listening to them. But in reality your sticking fingers in your ears.

 

[michal1980]

There is nothing to negotiate over. The time for negotiation is past if you're referring to the ACA.

so once are laws they are set in stone and cannot be changed. got it.

 

[Acanthus]

Perhaps if the Democrats had considered Republican input when ACA was passed, we wouldn't be in this situation now.

As we have it, we have a bill that no one seems to like D or R.

And I strongly disagree with you that "it can't make things worse". It most certainly can. It crams more people into the same system with the same broken controls and the same inflated costs.

If the formerly uninsured, who would've ended up at urgent care paying cash, now go to the ER with their expanded Medicare, what do you think is going to happen with the difference in cost?

How many more people now qualify for Medicare nationwide?

You all want to make it that Republicans don't want insurance for the poor. That's not it. We just don't want to be paying into a broken system that leaks money and has no controls for personal responsibility.

Logic fail. The system was already paying for all of the uninsured. It was just cost-shifted to everyone else. ACA makes that same system more direct.

My fear is the cost shifted prices will not correct, and hospitals will continue to grow uncontrollably rather than lower prices.

 

[TerryMathews]

so once are laws they are set in stone and cannot be changed. got it.

Too bad they don't have the same attitude with the 2nd and DOMA. Amirite?

 

[Matt1970]

Too bad they don't have the same attitude with the 2nd and DOMA. Amirite?

 

[boomerang]

The problem is the tea party has a "my way or the highway" approach where if you aren't 100% pure then your ideas are rejected.

This is not the way a democracy should work.

Life isn't fair and the government is not either. A quick test. Who, in 2009 told Republicans after they expressed some concerns about the stimulus package, "I won".

I'll give you a hint, his name starts with an "O" and ends with an "A". You, right here, denounce Obama for saying that and I will give what you say some credence.

 

[TerryMathews]

Logic fail. The system was already paying for all of the uninsured. It was just cost-shifted to everyone else. ACA makes that same system more direct.

My fear is the cost shifted prices will not correct, and hospitals will continue to grow uncontrollably rather than lower prices.

The difference is, hospitals were writing it off. Now they have a pocket to bill against. Logic not fail.

 

[Fern]

Logic fail. The system was already paying for all of the uninsured. It was just cost-shifted to everyone else. ACA makes that same system more direct.

My fear is the cost shifted prices will not correct, and hospitals will continue to grow uncontrollably rather than lower prices.

I'm seeing this "directness" you speak of.

E.g., my wife and I are in our 50's but Obamacare mandates that we pay HI for BS like maternity and pediatric care. I mean WTH? How is that freaking direct?

Fern