There is NO law that can prevent events like Va Tech from happening

[ProfJohn]

The people running around calling for more gun laws need to understand that there is no law that we can pass that will prevent crazy people bent on kill themselves and others from going on rampages.

He could have got a car and ran people down ala link or this

Even if we outlaw hand guns people can still get rifles and go on shooting sprees ala Beltway sniper or UT tower sniper

How about England which has virtually no guns, but has seen a rash of knife attacks and killings. Now killing 32 people with a knife would be a hard thing to do, but someone looking to make some spectacular statement would most likely come up with another method of attack.

This guy broke the rules by bringing a gun onto campus and then committed 32 felonies ala capital murder before taking his own life. You will never be able to pass a law to stop people like this from going over the edge.

Instead of a knee jerk reaction we need to take a look at what type of sensible actions we can take to prevent acts like this from happening in the future, or least limited the damage that can be done by people like this.
Perhaps eliminating the ?gun free zones? which ensure that the only people walking around with guns are the people willing to break the law is a start. Or perhaps there are other methods we can use, although I can?t think of any.

In the end though we need to approach this with thought and common sense and not go off the deep end trying to make some political statement that has no effect in the end. The only thing declaring Va Tech a ?gun free zone? did was ensure that no one was able to defend themselves from this crazy.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I just don't understand why people are looking at the gun in this guy's hand. That was not the problem here. These kinds of events are not prevented with gun laws. I'm sorry, but the issue is much deeper than that, and people are going to actually have to do some thinking and society is going to have to change if we really want to prevent these kinds of events from happening.

As we find out more about the shooter, we find the reasons in which he did this. And the reasons are not surprising. He was a alone, he was mentally ill, he sought out help, and no one really wanted to help this guy.

No one really wanted to find out who he really was until he killed 33 people including himself.

And no, I am not in any way excusing what he did, and yes, I do feel sorry for him, I feel bad that he was so sick and so twisted in the head that he actually thought he needed to go and do what he did. I feel sorry that he felt he needed to use this method to show everyone how much he hated himself. And I feel bad that we as a society needed him to do this before we actually cared even who he was.

It was really not bullets that he was firing out of his gun, it was his anger, his self-hatred, his lonliness, his sickness, that he was firing. He wanted others to feel his own misery.

We know the guy was a loner, we know he was quiet, and we know his parents were the same way.

source

"Classmates said that on the first day of an introduction to British literature class last year, the 30 or so English students went around and introduced themselves. When it was Cho's turn, he didn't speak. The professor looked at the sign-in sheet and, where everyone else had written their names, Cho had written a question mark. "Is your name, `Question mark?'" classmate Julie Poole recalled the professor asking. The young man offered little response."

I'm sorry, this is not a result of gun laws, or the lack there of. This is a result of the society we choose to live in, the result of the way we all live our lives. There are thousands more people in this country feeling just like this guy out there. But we don't like talking to those people, they are different, we fear them, and we allow them to fear us. The way society works just allows people to get left behind. Sometimes people just need help, they aren't as strong as others, for one reason or another. And as a society, we have no choice other than to either help them, or leave them be and let them suffer, and then clean up the bodies when one of them goes overboard. It is a choice maybe none of us asked for, but it is given to us nonetheless.

Maybe Cho's parents did a number on him, and maybe his parents' parents did a number on them, sickness dating back generations. Maybe if someone, just one person would have really reached out to Cho, maybe 50 years ago if someone had really reached out to Cho's parents, or 75 years ago to even their parents. Who knows?

And don't think I'm on a high horse here, I'm right there with everyone else.

But if we want to prevent these kinds of things from happening, we're going to have to be honest with ourselves on why they are happening. And putting all the blame on the gun, or putting all the blame on the shooter, or the shooter's parents just isn't going to work. We are going to have to put some of the blame on ourselves, on our society, and if we don't, we'll just have more dead bodies to clean up. I hope it is not mine, and I hope it is not yours', but it is going to be somebody's, it will happen again.

 

[chucky2]

I get what you're saying and almost entirely agree....but man, it wasn't long ago I was in college (SIUC, former big party school), and let me tell you, having guns easily accessed by college students is not a good idea.

On the whole, college students are little better than high schoolers in reality, especially the Freshman and Sophmores. Maybe by Junior year, on the whole, you start getting some adult thought process (when it's not party time). Seniors are largely getting there, but still, not enough to trust.

What's probably going to come of this is more police on campus, moves to place video surveilance all over campus (including dorm hallways), and lawsuits. Hopefully greater access to counseling services will be provded also, to maybe reach folks like this dude.

JMHO's...

Chuck

 

[ProfJohn]

Apparently one of his professors tried to get him into consoling, but nothing came of it.

This guy was long gone before the day he killed 32 people.

 

[maluckey]

Soceity failed this guy, as did his parents, but we can't fix that. There are no laws to mandate being compassionate etc.

We could make a National ID database... Anyone found guilty of selling a gun to a foreign national (you woul be able to check versus the National Database) would be charged with commiting a felony act against the State. The max penalty for Treason/Espionage is death.

Even this is only a tool to enforce a law already in effect; this wouldn't stop itl, but it sure would keep the less-than-career-criminal more honest.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: chucky2
I get what you're saying and almost entirely agree....but man, it wasn't long ago I was in college (SIUC, former big party school), and let me tell you, having guns easily accessed by college students is not a good idea.

On the whole, college students are little better than high schoolers in reality, especially the Freshman and Sophmores. Maybe by Junior year, on the whole, you start getting some adult thought process (when it's not party time). Seniors are largely getting there, but still, not enough to trust.

What's probably going to come of this is more police on campus, moves to place video surveilance all over campus (including dorm hallways), and lawsuits. Hopefully greater access to counseling services will be provded also, to maybe reach folks like this dude.

I agree, giving college kids guns is not the answer.

But what about a professor that wants to have one in his car? (Ok the idea of liberal college professors packing is a joke, but there are a few conservatives out there.)
There is story of a teenager who went to his school with a gun and shot some people. The assistant principle ran to his car and got his gun out of the trunk and confronted the kid getting him to give up. Thus saving the lives of who knows how many people.
The notable thing about this is that the Asst Principle had to park off campus because the school was a 'gun free zone'

There has been a rash of drug store robberies in Orlando recently, at least 5 that I know of, perhaps placing a "robbery free zone' on the door will stop this from happening in the future?

Let's not turn this into another good gun/bad gun thread. Instead let's talk about sensible action instead of knee jerk response.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Apparently one of his professors tried to get him into consoling, but nothing came of it.

This guy was long gone before the day he killed 32 people.

Well, nothing no matter how good will be 100%. This one guy killed 32 seemingly innocent people, just to kill them...which is unspeakably horrific.

But if we allow guns on campuses, what will the total yearly death rate by guns in college be then? I can't think it's going to be lower than 32, there's simply way to many crazies in college for me to believe that...

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

I agree, giving college kids guns is not the answer.

But what about a professor that wants to have one in his car? (Ok the idea of liberal college professors packing is a joke, but there are a few conservatives out there.)
There is story of a teenager who went to his school with a gun and shot some people. The assistant principle ran to his car and got his gun out of the trunk and confronted the kid getting him to give up. Thus saving the lives of who knows how many people.
The notable thing about this is that the Asst Principle had to park off campus because the school was a 'gun free zone'

There has been a rash of drug store robberies in Orlando recently, at least 5 that I know of, perhaps placing a "robbery free zone' on the door will stop this from happening in the future?

Let's not turn this into another good gun/bad gun thread. Instead let's talk about sensible action instead of knee jerk response.

Yeah, that may be an answer. It's funny you say that, because yesterday I was telling someone I worked with this type of thing could potentially be avoided or diminished if every Dean was issued a gun.

The problem with that is, as you point out, there as so many far left folks in the schools that this would never happen. And even if it was forced to happen, it's no good having a gun if you refuse to use it. Then there's the whole securing the gun(s) so only those authorized are allowed access. It's a real can of worms and given the very leftist attitudes at schools, I don't think you're ever going to see them allowing guns allowed on campus unless their carried by law enforcement types.

We're rapidly approaching the day when all schools are going to have a dedicated always armed rapid response team on campus or less than say 5 minutes away at any given time.

It seems that really the social issues need to be worked out on why people are doing these type of things now when they weren't many years ago. Has society gone so bankrupt in our core that even someone on the edge would consider something like this???

Chuck

 

[jackschmittusa]

I have often thought it would improve the gene pool if everybody carried a sidearm and was proficient with it. It might be messy at first, but there might be long term benefits.

 

[babylon5]

Another theory based on ridiculous statements.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Another theory based on ridiculous statements.

not related to gun laws, but here in germany police is using a new tactic when it comes to amok runs - which they employed successfully a few months/weeks ago at an amok in a school.
The police (normal patrol officers) are supposed to go in immeadiately (they are always at least two) - no wait for backup or special forces - to neutralize the offender (either by taking him out or by cornering him , usually leading the offender to suicide. In those first minutes of arriveing and immediately going after the shooter police is not supposed to give any first aid or care about any victims - just taking out the shooter as fast as possible. Apparently this tactic was used successfully in a school shooting a few weeks/months ago where afaik nobody died (some ppl were injured though) aside from the shooter.

 

[Wheezer]

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.

We have yet to outlaw dynamite.

 

[ericlp]

I think we need more law enforcement on the streets. Let's spend some money on more police. Hell I sure think we have enough at the airports....

 

[IGBT]

...Here's something to consider: If the left feels more gun control would have stopped this, what about the notion that more prayer would have stopped this? Can you feel the left shuddering at the thought? Did the "Culture of Death" embraced by the left lead to this?

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Soceity failed this guy, as did his parents, but we can't fix that. There are no laws to mandate being compassionate etc.

We could make a National ID database... Anyone found guilty of selling a gun to a foreign national (you woul be able to check versus the National Database) would be charged with commiting a felony act against the State. The max penalty for Treason/Espionage is death.

Even this is only a tool to enforce a law already in effect; this wouldn't stop itl, but it sure would keep the less-than-career-criminal more honest.

Society didn't fail this guy, government failed the 32 victims of this guy. It failed because even when people who exhibit dangerous actions and writings there is nothing that can be done about them. Government continually fails society by allowing foreigners to come to this country, even those who exhibit mental problems, yet does nothing to investigate. I am all for foreign students, workers, and such, but if they exhibit signs of mental problems they should be required to be medically certified as safe or not, they are NOT citizens, yet.

Government failed the 32 when it removed guns from the campus and then provided no means to make up for that lack of deterrent.


Making a National ID would be a wet dream of the politicians. Making new laws to violate isn't going to prevent this situation, this guy violated so many laws its not even funny. Hell whomever sold him the guns was already breaking a law, whats one more going to do? I know, lets make it a HATE CRIME to sell bad guys guns. Oh, but how do we tell whos good and who is bad?

Parents fail kids under 16, they didn't fail this murderer. He was well beyond the age where his parents could influence him. Nutjobs like him give us many signs but this PC day and age chooses to ignore them just so it won't offend.

 

[compuwiz1]

This is not about laws, but where society fails in the upbringing of our children. The ethical / moral compasses are failing to be installed correctly these days. If this is a generation problem, which I hope it's not, then we (if we're parents) have borked it! Where else do you look for this accountability?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
This is not about laws, but where society fails in the upbringing of our children. The ethical / moral compasses are failing to be installed correctly these days. If this is a generation problem, which I hope it's not, then we (if we're parents) have borked it! Where else do you look for this accountability?

Great point. Look at his suicide note "You made me do this" isn't that what he said?

It's not my fault, it is your fault. We are teaching our chilrden that nothing is their fault. They can't do no wrong, all because we are afraid of hurting their feelings.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
This is not about laws, but where society fails in the upbringing of our children. The ethical / moral compasses are failing to be installed correctly these days. If this is a generation problem, which I hope it's not, then we (if we're parents) have borked it! Where else do you look for this accountability?

Great point. Look at his suicide note "You made me do this" isn't that what he said?

It's not my fault, it is your fault. We are teaching our chilrden that nothing is their fault. They can't do no wrong, all because we are afraid of hurting their feelings.

In the tech world, this is nothing a driver or bios upgrade won't solve.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: IGBT
...Here's something to consider: If the left feels more gun control would have stopped this, what about the notion that more prayer would have stopped this? Can you feel the left shuddering at the thought? Did the "Culture of Death" embraced by the left lead to this?

Do you really think you can force people to pray and love Jesus or whatever deity you think they should? In defense of gun control, at least guns are tangible things; prayer is so arbitrary and can be an entire act. A disgruntled anti-social potential killer would probably just go through the motions to appease society, the time he "wastes" in prayer and religious instruction just fueling his anger more.

 

[randym431]

This drives me nutz and a lot of others too, no doubt. Face it, America is a very violent country. We love guns and killing. CNN loves to report news like this. It sells papers and TV time. As long as most any American is allowed to walk into a gun shop and buy military type weapons, the death will continue. Yes, we should be allowed to have guns used for game hunting and small hand guns for home protection. But why in Gods name people like the NRA and many politicians want to "protect" the right of someone to buy and own and posses high powered military type weapons in beyond the logic of the Heavens. Its nutz, crazy and as twisted as it can be. Sick and perverted in thinking we should have a "right" to this insanity.
I can?t figure it. Either people still think we live in the wild wild west, or they believe a Hitler-like army will invade us, marching down main street and leaving it up the the individual to protect the homeland. Who knows, its just insane crazy thinking. And until the laws are really changed, tune to CNN for the latest mass killings. And for Gods sake, don?t "act" surprised when it happens again and again (and again).
:roll:

 

[PottedMeat]

Originally posted by: randym431
This drives me nutz and a lot of others too, no doubt. Face it, America is a very violent country. We love guns and killing. CNN loves to report news like this. It sells papers and TV time. As long as most any American is allowed to walk into a gun shop and buy military type weapons, the death will continue. Yes, we should be allowed to have guns used for game hunting and small hand guns for home protection. But why in Gods name people like the NRA and many politicians want to "protect" the right of someone to buy and own and posses high powered military type weapons in beyond the logic of the Heavens.
:roll:

How is a Glock 19 or a Walther P22 a 'military type' weapon? Nobody will ever stop a dedicated crazy person.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
This is not about laws, but where society fails in the upbringing of our children. The ethical / moral compasses are failing to be installed correctly these days. If this is a generation problem, which I hope it's not, then we (if we're parents) have borked it! Where else do you look for this accountability?

Great point. Look at his suicide note "You made me do this" isn't that what he said?

It's not my fault, it is your fault. We are teaching our chilrden that nothing is their fault. They can't do no wrong, all because we are afraid of hurting their feelings.

you guys nailed it.

 

[lozina]

Anyone not convinced gun laws don't help you should watch Penn & Teller's episode on gun control. I think you can find it on LiveLeak, maybe some of the other video sites like youtube or google too.

 

[blackllotus]

Maybe we should learn from the other first world countries. England and Wales combined have 8 times the population of New York City and 12 times less gun related deaths (and I doubt that they have 96 times more knife attacks). Australia, when confronted with a killing massacre years ago, enacted tougher gun laws and gun related deaths have dropped. Almost every other country with a reasonable GNP has a lower rate of gun related deaths than we do and have stricter gun laws.

Less strict gun laws make it easier for someone to walk into a building with an automatic and a large clip and down a bunch of people. To defend this in the name of liberty is absurd. A gun can kill a low of people in a short amount of time so the idea that other people with guns would be able to stop a shooter before he can do a lot of damage is ridiculosu.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: randym431
This drives me nutz and a lot of others too, no doubt. Face it, America is a very violent country. We love guns and killing. CNN loves to report news like this. It sells papers and TV time. As long as most any American is allowed to walk into a gun shop and buy military type weapons, the death will continue. Yes, we should be allowed to have guns used for game hunting and small hand guns for home protection. But why in Gods name people like the NRA and many politicians want to "protect" the right of someone to buy and own and posses high powered military type weapons in beyond the logic of the Heavens. Its nutz, crazy and as twisted as it can be. Sick and perverted in thinking we should have a "right" to this insanity.
I can?t figure it. Either people still think we live in the wild wild west, or they believe a Hitler-like army will invade us, marching down main street and leaving it up the the individual to protect the homeland. Who knows, its just insane crazy thinking. And until the laws are really changed, tune to CNN for the latest mass killings. And for Gods sake, don?t "act" surprised when it happens again and again (and again).
:roll:

The funny thing is that those "high powered military type weapons" were not the ones used to commit the crimes. In fact, very few firearms that could be described as such are used in gun related crimes at all. Overwhelmingly, small caliber handguns are used instead just as in the tragedy at VT.

All making guns illegal would do is to make millions of ordinary citizens defenseless and give criminals the upper hand.