That would theoretically true if education were free and humans lived forever. Neither of those is true so your comment is absurd. If someone is going to be an English teacher and live for 75 years, there is no need for them (or their government) to spend $100,000 to get an engineering degree...
That would theoretically true if education were free and humans lived forever. Neither of those is true so your comment is absurd. If someone is going to be an English teacher and live for 75 years, there is no need for them (or their government) to spend $100,000 to get an engineering degree...
First
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2002
- 10,518
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- 136
Because none of the above bullshit post you just typed is true considering we've had exactly the same unemployment rate between 1980 and 2011 as we did in almost any other 31 year history in the United States. 404-immigrants-taking-our-jobs not found.
Baasha
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2010
- 1,989
- 20
- 81
IdiotHawk rambling yet again. And therein lies the problem. The two words in bold are oxymoronic. As RabidMongoose stated, most "Americans" are too busy drinking alcohol, fornicating, and studying "business" (LOL) to be worthy of any degree, let alone something somewhat intellectually demanding as engineering.
Due to the trashy, hedonistic culture of the west (redundant, really), education has become completely commercialized in America. Degrees are sold to those who can pay. Only a very few number of institutions still emphasize important qualities like self-discipline, hard work, and respect for intellectual pursuit while most are in the business of handing out degrees like a factory.
Standardized tests attest to the fact that Asians score higher than westerners even in English! Mathematics is also no surprise; Asians score far higher than their western counterparts. It is a really sad fact for westerners who know no other language than "American" (broken English), can't even score as well as Asian immigrants who are multilingual! Those who rarely do are usually socially inept and awkward.
Nowadays, many immigrants come here to use the best institutions of higher learning and then return to their homelands to settle. It is also interesting to note that many of the top institutions give scholarships to bright students from around the world, ameliorating the tuition fee burden on them.
While "Americans" are majoring in "communication" and "theater", Asians, and even some African immigrants (Nigeria etc.), are predominantly majoring in STEM fields. It is also interesting to note that business schools around the country are also being strongly represented by Asian immigrants. Heck, the dean of the best business school in the world, Harvard Business School (HBS), is an Indian immigrant who was born and educated in India (undergrad)!
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
It wouldn't hurt them. Sure would be better off with an engineering degree if they get laid off due to budget cuts.
WhoBeDaPlaya
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2000
- 7,415
- 404
- 126
You DO realize that foreign students are helping to subsidize Americans' in-state tuition right (or at least the quality of education and/or facilities)?
What is more laughable is that we are chasing a lot of foreign post-graduates out of the country once they're done. Guess who ultimately paid for their tuition and stipend in a lot of cases?
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You DO realize that foreign students are helping to subsidize Americans' in-state tuition right (or at least the quality of education and/or facilities)?
What is more laughable is that we are chasing a lot of foreign post-graduates out of the country once they're done. Guess who ultimately paid for their tuition and stipend in a lot of cases?
I call BS on this. Show some facts that support this. My mother works for a major Texas university and has told me of many the foreign nationals that not only get there education paid for by the US government, but actually get checks back each semester. I don't claim that this is always the case, but I see no proof that your point is true.
I think colleges should stop trying to make "well rounded" students and focus on real world job related skills. I stopped looking to hire college grads as they seem to have an attitude that the degree entitles them to high pay yet they lack the skills needed to actually complete the jobs requirements. I let them go get some real world experience first then they can apply. These are engineers btw, mostly EE's and some ME's. If colleges reworked there degree plans to focus on skills rather than extending the students time at the school though bs classes (my opinion here) and got students to graduation inside the four years, OR LESS, the students would be better prepared for a career and owe less is student loans.
Engineer
Elite Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 39,230
- 701
- 126
After looking at the "University Core" classes of several programs lately, I'm starting to agree. You could cut a year to maybe two if you simply had an Engineering core and dropped all of the other stuff. It has, IMHO, become a way to milk the money for two more years for stuff that most people will never use. Time to focus on the bread and butter portion of education and drop all of the garnishments.
Modelworks
Lifer
- Feb 22, 2007
- 16,240
- 7
- 76
Depends on the field of engineering. Engineer has become a much wider used term than it was in the past. I remember when engineer meant the person that knew all there was to know on a subject. It was the go to guy for a project. Now it can be someone with a degree but not real world experience or someone who specialized in one area but are now in a new area almost unrelated and allowed to claim the title because they have gone to college.
There are also shortages because people don't really check into what they will be doing. I don't know how many times I have heard people say they became xxxxx because they thought they would be doing one thing and the job isn't what they thought. If you are considering college or a field PLEASE check it out thoroughly . That doesn't mean reading web sites or reading a book. Do yourself a favor and go find some people doing the job you want. Talk to them about how they got where they are. Even better would be to check around for places that might let you spend a day or week with an employee to learn about the field. Colleges toss around salary numbers and outlines of possible futures and what they will be like to get students to enroll.
One area I always see in demand is water treatment or sewage treatment engineers while you have a glut of engineers in electronics or computers . My advice is look in the employee hiring areas of sites and see what is in demand and match that to what your interest are.
Not for credit program but if you are interested in learning something another option is become an apprentice. I have a good friend who now runs an upholstery shop. How he got started was he went to an upholster in his city and told the guy he wanted to learn how, he told the guy I will be here every day 9-5 to learn and I will work for free if you show me how to do the job. It benefits both of them, one learns and the other gets free labor. I have another friend who has a screen printing business and he learned the same way, volunteered to work for someone else.
There are also shortages because people don't really check into what they will be doing. I don't know how many times I have heard people say they became xxxxx because they thought they would be doing one thing and the job isn't what they thought. If you are considering college or a field PLEASE check it out thoroughly . That doesn't mean reading web sites or reading a book. Do yourself a favor and go find some people doing the job you want. Talk to them about how they got where they are. Even better would be to check around for places that might let you spend a day or week with an employee to learn about the field. Colleges toss around salary numbers and outlines of possible futures and what they will be like to get students to enroll.
One area I always see in demand is water treatment or sewage treatment engineers while you have a glut of engineers in electronics or computers . My advice is look in the employee hiring areas of sites and see what is in demand and match that to what your interest are.
Not for credit program but if you are interested in learning something another option is become an apprentice. I have a good friend who now runs an upholstery shop. How he got started was he went to an upholster in his city and told the guy he wanted to learn how, he told the guy I will be here every day 9-5 to learn and I will work for free if you show me how to do the job. It benefits both of them, one learns and the other gets free labor. I have another friend who has a screen printing business and he learned the same way, volunteered to work for someone else.
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busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
- 8,793
- 5
- 76
People in academics are mostly under paid. My friend doing Post-Doc in neuroscience is making the same amount.
I think as engineers face more and more complex problems, the need for sharper technical skills increases, but so does knowledge in other fields. A lot of engineering disasters (mainly environmental) is probably due to the engineers' ignorance on things that were affected by their engineering projects.
China is run by (mostly) engineers. Do you want a country like China? How about a project like the Three Gorges Dam that was successfully engineered, but the ecological and environmental damage wasn't really taken into account.
I think there is a place for liberal arts majors- however I don't think that many people belong in it. Too many kids these days go to college to "discover themselves", drink and party and end up getting Cs all through college and then complain about not being able to find a job with their sociology degree. Weed it out. Allow lenders to discriminate based on major's projected future earnings. Those who are passionate and will contribute greatly in their respective fields (yes, even 16th century Danish cottage or whatever that other post mentioned) has a place in our society, just not a place for 100k students to study about it.
My $0.02.
Oh, and a lot of the extra knowledge one gets in grad school isn't really something you can pick up in the industry, IMHO. Maybe I've been outside the loop and inside academia for far too long.
nonlnear
Platinum Member
- Jan 31, 2008
- 2,497
- 0
- 76
Oh the costs for the Three Gorges Dam were all accounted for, don't you worry about that. The Chinese (at least those in power) have an insatiable urge to sacrifice their country and countrymen to their collective ego. When they don't have students willing to lay down in front of their tanks to do it for them, they rape their natural wonders for the pleasure of saying they could do it. When the Three Gorges Dam collapses, the country will see it as a great opportunity to show solidarity.
Don't take that as a jingoistic shot at China. The only difference between the Chinese powers that be and the American powers that be is the American movers and shakers don't have a notion of collectivized ego. Instead, they pour out the blood of their countrymen and their natural resources for their favored stakeholders.
What I see from people who I work with, went to school with, and good friends. Is that people aren't going into that field because lack of great money. Most of the people I know start off out of college with engineering type degrees making anywhere from 50-70k a year. Most have figured out that they want more, and with just a couple more years of college start out making anywhere from 100-400k a year depending what they end up going for. They may not be using there engineering degree for engineering, but sure as heck used it to help them get the next degree in something that really makes them good money.
But this goes the same for most college graduates I know in the last 5ish years. End up going for what ever undergrad degree, can't find a job or can't find one making the money they really want. Just end up going back to school now that they actually know whats going on unlike when they left high school.
Whats the point to work your ass off for far less pay when you can go into something else and make far more money.
But this goes the same for most college graduates I know in the last 5ish years. End up going for what ever undergrad degree, can't find a job or can't find one making the money they really want. Just end up going back to school now that they actually know whats going on unlike when they left high school.
Whats the point to work your ass off for far less pay when you can go into something else and make far more money.
You're ridiculous. You're a self-admitted hateful parasite of the place you immigrated to. Who moves somewhere that they don't respect? Again, as I've said before, please share your opinions with as many Americans as you can in real life and not just on an anonymous forum. I think it would be good for everyone to know where you really stand.
You're just repeating yourself and you completely ignored what I said without actually rebutting my points. Again, they can very well be worse off if they're never going to use that degree and given the fact that it costs them or the government real money that could be used for something more valuable.
You DO realize that foreign students are helping to subsidize Americans' in-state tuition right (or at least the quality of education and/or facilities)?
What is more laughable is that we are chasing a lot of foreign post-graduates out of the country once they're done. Guess who ultimately paid for their tuition and stipend in a lot of cases?
As ccbad pointed out, BS. Do YOU realize that the federal government subsidizes most graduate science programs? And you seem to undermine your own point by saying that when they leave we end footing the bill. Which one is it? Are they paying for more than their fair share or not?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,802
- 6,358
- 126
Tuition should be more Market Based. By that I mean: Cheaper where there are Shortages, more expensive where there's a Surplus. It wouldn't work perfectly and Tuitions would need to be adjusted annually, but it would address the Need and simultaneously be an indicator to would-be Students as to where the Jobs are.
The shortages take care of themselves. People certainly do go into fields they feel are hotter. Eventually, those areas saturate. Look at the nursing field. By subsidizing hot fields you'd just make the fluctuations more extreme.
Anyway, if we had a healthy labor markets employers would be offering their employees degrees or paying enough so that they could easily pay off their loans. The fact is it's not that hard for people to get engineers, especially when they can easily get an H1B slave-engineer.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,802
- 6,358
- 126
I suppose that's a risk. Might be why I'm not a University President! :hmm: Or maybe I'd need a Degree or something for that? :|
RocksteadyDotNet
Diamond Member
- Jul 29, 2008
- 3,152
- 1
- 0
Oh the irony.
These 'bad qualitys' that people from the west have are exactly why we are the best at innovation.
We're free thinkers. We do crazy shit for crazy reasons. We want to enjoy life. So for these reasons we think outside the box to solve problems. Yeah, we enjoy sex, so we do what we can to make money to make that happen. Oh no, we drink too much! We work hard and play hard.
Asians and Indians on the other hand are robots. They're backwards cultures create individuals that have absolutly no critical thinking skills.
You're whole lives are dedicated to doing what your parents tell you. You idiots even let your parents arrange your marriage!
How are you ever going to create something new if you dont even have the skills to pick your own life partner.
Studying doesnt make one smart. Going our, doing shit, experiencing stuff will make you wise though.
I see asians on here bitching that their parents will disown them because they're dating a white girl or whatever. That's sick. Your culture is fucked! Everything is so rigid and conservative. This does not create innovative individuals.
It creates robots who do what they're told when they're told, never questioning the status quo or thinking outside the box.
Until you change your backwards cultures and adopt a more western style of living, you will never beat us at innovation.
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Well the problem is obvious by looking at the instructors of engineering or any other technical degree... They are all from a different country. People in this country can't be bothered to do math. How many times do you hear people say "I'm not good at math". Well no shit, you don't even try. Maybe I'm exaggerating but it seems like most kids try to find a degree that requires the least amount of math and science. I don't think this kind of crap goes on in Europe either, I think its an American issue.
LOL - you must be joking. Indians and Chinese people provide a lot more innovation than Australians. Stop trying to weasel yourself into the US innovation environment. Australia is only good for mining of resources, basically it's a good country to exploit. Australia overall is one of the most disgusting cultures on the planet, easily one of the most racist environments in the world.
India and China are better than Australia when it comes to innovation, their citizens actually look into innovative disciplines, and there is a hell of a lot more innovation happening by Indians and Chinese people than with Australians. It's not even close.
Seriously, there is no 'us' when it comes to Australians and the US. Stop trying to weasel an association between your disgusting and filthy non-innovative country with the US.
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The Duke professor and you have no understanding of how the market works. How is salary an indication if there is a shortage of engineers? Supply and demand isn't the only thing that determines salary. If an engineering position doesn't add direct revenue to a company (for example R&D), do you think the company is going to pay the salary of a management/financial consultant when those consultant generates $200+/hr revenue for a company, just because there is lack of supply? Of course not, companies don't just pay according to supply and demand, they look at how much revenue the position generates and will only pay up to that. If they pay over that, they would be losing money. If the supply and demand creates salary point over that point, company will simply not hire. Hence the high unemployment rate.
And why those foreigners won't stay in America? Because of people like you. Adding more restrictions, reducing number of visas because of you xenophobia. Those foreign advance engineering degree holders already accepted American culture, that's why they choose to study in the US. They already prove they have the brain and work ethic to get the advance technical degree. They are just like any of American forefathers who came to America with an American dream, except they are much better educated. They are very likely to become productive member of American society, pay tax and make business more productive and generate more work for all. But no, because they are "not American", you refuse them the opportunity while your grandpa, great grandpa..etc are one of many just like those people.
America already have a though time fighting the rising developing powers like China and India. But there are bunch morons who think the US will rise again by closing its door and standing pat, no not standing pat but doing everything to get rid of productive element if it's deemed not "American". Your belief American is greater than the 3rd world, refusal to accept the rise and competitiveness of those countries, and refusal to face the competition to come up with a strategy to counter that, will bring the eventual collapse of this nation.
I dont think well rounded is all bad. However, I think colleges should also start printing the expected income from a given major/minor in the program catalog.
RocksteadyDotNet
Diamond Member
- Jul 29, 2008
- 3,152
- 1
- 0
LOL. Hate Australia all you want, it's still one of, if not the, most advanced countries in the world.
GDP Per Capita
HDI
Infant Mortality Rage
Literacy
etc
etc
And yes, we are leaders in innovation.
But yeah, sorry we don't provide more than countries that have 50 TIMES OUR POPULATION!
Dumbass..
And why do you keep spouting the rascism crap? Did you know one of those Indian guys over east that got beaten up. He shouldn't have been mouthing off. Know your place and you will be fine.
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