There is a fine line between "helping your child" and "doing it for your child"

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

The vast majority of the kids obviously did their own work, and I think they should all be really proud of their results.

I think they were all American, but I really can't be sure. Maybe these were brilliant German/Swiss/Japanese ringers that the parents imported just to win?

The kids who did the hard work are the ones who should be rewarded, but unfortunately the rules didn't allow it.

I spent 2 years teaching college classes at a major public university, the stupidity of the kids that went there amazed me. I was surprised some could tie their shoes.

10 years ago the U.S. ranked last in industrialized nations in standardized test scores. Now even some developing nations are beating out U.S. students, sorry but I don't have much hope for the future.

do you blame the kids for this or the parents?

The kids, the parents, the system, our entire culture. We glorify stupidity.

i'm not going to blame the kids. they were influenced by their parents. they were sheltered from disappointment by their parents and now don't know how to function on their own.

I have a question though say you have two kids,

One with rich parents who bought them private school, the best tutors, music classes, sports, everything to nurture them.

Then you have a kid who grew up in the ghetto with nothing.

Both these kids have the same grades and SAT scores, which kid would you rather admit into your college?

Fact is there are kids who can make themselves exceptions to the rules, you can't blame your entire life on your parenting.

if i were running the college and i had to pick between those two kids - the ghetto kid would be in.

i realize there are exceptions to the rule. i am just saying lack of good parenting skills in this country is related to the dumbing down of our kids.

 

[wvtalbot]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: shortylickens

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

Its a huge generalization but the point still makes sense.
If parents would stop babying the kids and start parenting them the kids may turn out to be productive adults.

It makes no more sense than saying most blacks are criminals after witnessing one hold up a liquor store.

Fact is though said generalization has TONS of statistics to back it up. Our kids are getting dumber.

Well, I can't get into a debate about the current state of our kids' abilities because, frankly, I have zero data that points one way or the other. However, the people around me (friends, family, etc) are raising very intelligent and able children. To say "most kids are lazy and stupid" is to really sell a lot of people short.

Thats why I said most and not ALL. Parents who nurture their kids are an exception to the rule anymore, all because your demographic is the exception doesn't mean that represents the majority.

 

[wvtalbot]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

The vast majority of the kids obviously did their own work, and I think they should all be really proud of their results.

I think they were all American, but I really can't be sure. Maybe these were brilliant German/Swiss/Japanese ringers that the parents imported just to win?

The kids who did the hard work are the ones who should be rewarded, but unfortunately the rules didn't allow it.

I spent 2 years teaching college classes at a major public university, the stupidity of the kids that went there amazed me. I was surprised some could tie their shoes.

10 years ago the U.S. ranked last in industrialized nations in standardized test scores. Now even some developing nations are beating out U.S. students, sorry but I don't have much hope for the future.

do you blame the kids for this or the parents?

The kids, the parents, the system, our entire culture. We glorify stupidity.

i'm not going to blame the kids. they were influenced by their parents. they were sheltered from disappointment by their parents and now don't know how to function on their own.

I have a question though say you have two kids,

One with rich parents who bought them private school, the best tutors, music classes, sports, everything to nurture them.

Then you have a kid who grew up in the ghetto with nothing.

Both these kids have the same grades and SAT scores, which kid would you rather admit into your college?

Fact is there are kids who can make themselves exceptions to the rules, you can't blame your entire life on your parenting.

if i were running the college and i had to pick between those two kids - the ghetto kid would be in.

i realize there are exceptions to the rule. i am just saying lack of good parenting skills in this country are related to the dumbing down of our kids.

Actually I would say the #1 factor in the dumbing down of our kids is newer technology like television which allows kids to grow up in a passive state, that and our culture glorifying stupidity.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

The vast majority of the kids obviously did their own work, and I think they should all be really proud of their results.

I think they were all American, but I really can't be sure. Maybe these were brilliant German/Swiss/Japanese ringers that the parents imported just to win?

The kids who did the hard work are the ones who should be rewarded, but unfortunately the rules didn't allow it.

I spent 2 years teaching college classes at a major public university, the stupidity of the kids that went there amazed me. I was surprised some could tie their shoes.

10 years ago the U.S. ranked last in industrialized nations in standardized test scores. Now even some developing nations are beating out U.S. students, sorry but I don't have much hope for the future.

do you blame the kids for this or the parents?

The kids, the parents, the system, our entire culture. We glorify stupidity.

i'm not going to blame the kids. they were influenced by their parents. they were sheltered from disappointment by their parents and now don't know how to function on their own.

I have a question though say you have two kids,

One with rich parents who bought them private school, the best tutors, music classes, sports, everything to nurture them.

Then you have a kid who grew up in the ghetto with nothing.

Both these kids have the same grades and SAT scores, which kid would you rather admit into your college?

Fact is there are kids who can make themselves exceptions to the rules, you can't blame your entire life on your parenting.

if i were running the college and i had to pick between those two kids - the ghetto kid would be in.

i realize there are exceptions to the rule. i am just saying lack of good parenting skills in this country are related to the dumbing down of our kids.

Actually I would say the #1 factor in the dumbing down of our kids is newer technology like television which allows kids to grow up in a passive state, that and our culture glorifying stupidity.

there are other factors yes, but don't discount parental influence or not having postive influence in this case.

 

[wvtalbot]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

The vast majority of the kids obviously did their own work, and I think they should all be really proud of their results.

I think they were all American, but I really can't be sure. Maybe these were brilliant German/Swiss/Japanese ringers that the parents imported just to win?

The kids who did the hard work are the ones who should be rewarded, but unfortunately the rules didn't allow it.

I spent 2 years teaching college classes at a major public university, the stupidity of the kids that went there amazed me. I was surprised some could tie their shoes.

10 years ago the U.S. ranked last in industrialized nations in standardized test scores. Now even some developing nations are beating out U.S. students, sorry but I don't have much hope for the future.

do you blame the kids for this or the parents?

The kids, the parents, the system, our entire culture. We glorify stupidity.

i'm not going to blame the kids. they were influenced by their parents. they were sheltered from disappointment by their parents and now don't know how to function on their own.

I have a question though say you have two kids,

One with rich parents who bought them private school, the best tutors, music classes, sports, everything to nurture them.

Then you have a kid who grew up in the ghetto with nothing.

Both these kids have the same grades and SAT scores, which kid would you rather admit into your college?

Fact is there are kids who can make themselves exceptions to the rules, you can't blame your entire life on your parenting.

if i were running the college and i had to pick between those two kids - the ghetto kid would be in.

i realize there are exceptions to the rule. i am just saying lack of good parenting skills in this country are related to the dumbing down of our kids.

Actually I would say the #1 factor in the dumbing down of our kids is newer technology like television which allows kids to grow up in a passive state, that and our culture glorifying stupidity.

there are other factors yes, but don't discount parental influence or not having postive influence in this case.

Well considering the number of single parent homes in the country, I would say the traditional concept of parental influence is now an exception.

 

[Sphexi]

Fishing weights in the bottom of the car FTW.

 

[NuclearNed]

Originally posted by: Sphexi
Fishing weights in the bottom of the car FTW.

Actually, that is allowed. All cars have to be below a certain weight, and are checked before they are allowed to race.

 

[wvtalbot]

The most memorable moment of young stupidty I remember was I was substituting for a Political Geography class. You had to have a few prereqs to get into it. This was a few years ago and whether or not to invade Iraq was big in the news. This kid (I think he was from Jersey) gave a presentation about the Iraqi people. But instead of calling them Iraqis he called them "Iraqs" the first time he said it I started paying attention, he used the term over 20 times in the presentation, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[DougK62]

That's sad. I remember making those cars, and the only thing my parents did for me was cut the wood block to the shape that I wanted. Good times.

 

[Sphexi]

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: Sphexi
Fishing weights in the bottom of the car FTW.

Actually, that is allowed. All cars have to be below a certain weight, and are checked before they are allowed to race.

I know it is, why do you think I said it ...I remember perfectly well drilling out the bottom of my little wedge shaped car and inserting those tiny lead weights. Thing practically flew after that.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about: Pinewood Derby

My wife's uncle teaches a youth group for boys (about 8 - 10 years old) at his church, and he has for the past several years organized and run a yearly pinewood derby (this time including the girls as well). This year he asked me to be a judge at the event, since I don't go to his church and would therefore be impartial. The kids were supposed to build and decorate their own cars, find a Bible verse that somehow related to their design, and then they would race them at the event. My job was to judge on two categories: "best looking car" and "best choice of Bible verse". Prizes (trophies, etc.) were involved.

Another relevant piece of information is that adults were invited to submit their own cars, although they were not eligible to be judged for prizes. In other words, if parents wanted to spend tons of money, time, and effort to design a car, they could do so without bumping any kids out of prize contention.

So last night at the event, 85% of the kids proudly carried in the product of their labors, and they were pretty much what you would expect from kids. They were all nifty-looking, but there was no doubt that they were made by kids, if you know what I mean.

Then there were the other 15%. There were three cars that were submitted for judging in the children's categories, and I am 100% safe in saying that these cars had never been touched by young hands. I'm not joking - these three cars looked professionally made, even better than those shown on the site I linked above. One of them looked like it had literally been designed by an Italian sportscar aerodynamic engineer.

Some parents suck. There were three kids who put a lot of effort in their entries who got bumped out of a trophy last night, and I really feel bad for them.

welcome to pinewood derby. my dad built my derby cars 20 years ago. sure i helped, but you can't let a 10 yr old (or however old i was) use a band saw.

anyway, this isn't anything new. i understand what you're trying to say, but with pinewood derby it's always been like that.

 

[NuclearNed]

We ought to have a ATOT pinewood derby. With all the engineers and other intelligent folks here I would imagine that there would be some really well designed cars. It might be quite entertaining.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: wvtalbot

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Its sad to say but most American children are stupid and lazy, scary to think how poorly they will compete in a world economy some day.

Generalize much?

The vast majority of the kids obviously did their own work, and I think they should all be really proud of their results.

I think they were all American, but I really can't be sure. Maybe these were brilliant German/Swiss/Japanese ringers that the parents imported just to win?

The kids who did the hard work are the ones who should be rewarded, but unfortunately the rules didn't allow it.

I spent 2 years teaching college classes at a major public university, the stupidity of the kids that went there amazed me. I was surprised some could tie their shoes.

10 years ago the U.S. ranked last in industrialized nations in standardized test scores. Now even some developing nations are beating out U.S. students, sorry but I don't have much hope for the future.

do you blame the kids for this or the parents?

The kids, the parents, the system, our entire culture. We glorify stupidity.

i blame teachers. the education system has gone into the toilet.

 

[MisterJackson]

My son and I participated in the Pinewood Derby 3 years in a row. I have personally seen what the OP talks about and have even built one of the "adult" cars to race just so I can do this along with my child. On his car I helped about %50. By helped I mean, guide him when using a jigsaw so he doesn't loose a finger, or telling him which sandpaper works best and why. I did most of the fine tuning, but he put in most of the work, the sweat equity.

I think a lot of parents help and end up doing the whole thing out of good intentions. For example, it's easy to look at a car a kid built 100% on his own and wonder if it will even make it down the track. You don't want this kid to loose his first two heats on race day and have to sit there the rest of the day depressed. On the flip side of that, you don't want to show him that someone will always do it for him and help him get the win.

You want that fine balance where you teach the boy to be a man and take responsibility for his creation but at the same time teach him it's okay to rely on others, especially family, when you need a helping hand.

BTW, my son placed 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd each year. I am proud of him, and will always guide him, but I'll never "do for him" what he can do on his own.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: Sphexi
Fishing weights in the bottom of the car FTW.

Actually, that is allowed. All cars have to be below a certain weight, and are checked before they are allowed to race.

I know it is, why do you think I said it ...I remember perfectly well drilling out the bottom of my little wedge shaped car and inserting those tiny lead weights. Thing practically flew after that.

Yep, that and getting the axles to stay on (I kept screwing that up) was the part of my car that my dad helped me with 20 or so years ago. It was an ugly beast but it ran decent enough.

I was only in the Boy Scouts for one year but having my Dad help me with the pinewood derby thing is always a fond memory.

 

[HBalzer]

I would say the factor is parents are so concerned about having things that they work 2 jobs and spend little time with the kids. To make up for this they are over protective and take away all the fun outside activities because they are ?to dangerous.? When I was a kid we had a park that had huge cement blocks with tunnels and holes through them then they had those wooden fort things some like 20? high, about 10 ? 15 years ago they took it all out too dangerous. So now kids sit inside and play safe video games and tv

 

[NuclearNed]

Originally posted by: fisher

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
<snip>

welcome to pinewood derby. my dad built my derby cars 20 years ago. sure i helped, but you can't let a 10 yr old (or however old i was) use a band saw.

anyway, this isn't anything new. i understand what you're trying to say, but with pinewood derby it's always been like that.

You're right, but there was some sort of line that was crossed by these parents. Considering this was a church event, you would think they would stick to some sort of honor code just to keep the competition fair.

It kind of struck a nerve with me because I was one of those kids who lost competitions like this under the same circumstances.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Back when I was scout (9-12,) my dad and I would always research and compromise on car designs (I always wanted something futuristic and he used to race older model coups and roadsters, so that was his preference.) He's a heck of an artist, so he'd sketch out some drawings that we'd finally agree upon. Then he would actually operate the saw to cut out the basic shape, then I would put in the time and effort into the sanding of the curves, etc. Then I'd paint, detail, and wax it, and he'd help with the wheel assembly.

Our cars usually came in the top 5 in the races (never 1st place,) but we took top prize for Best Design or Best Looking Car every time.

 

[NuclearNed]

As an aside... even if you are not religious you may find this kind of funny.

For the best Bible verse, most of the kids found verses about "running the race", blah, blah, blah - booooring.

I thought the girl who came up with the best Bible verse was pretty creative. She took it from the book of Genesis. It was the part where God curses the serpent for tempting Adam and Eve to sin. The verse is as follows (abbreviated):

3:14 ...you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

The girls' car had "Eat my dust" painted on it.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
As an aside... even if you are not religious you may find this kind of funny.

For the best Bible verse, most of the kids found verses about "running the race", blah, blah, blah - booooring.

I thought the girl who came up with the best Bible verse was pretty creative. She took it from the book of Genesis. It was the part where God curses the serpent for tempting Adam and Eve to sin. The verse is as follows (abbreviated):

3:14 ...you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

The girls' car had "Eat my dust" painted on it.

Awesome. :thumbsup:

Wait.. a girl? I thought this was a boys youth group?

 

[NuclearNed]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
As an aside... even if you are not religious you may find this kind of funny.

For the best Bible verse, most of the kids found verses about "running the race", blah, blah, blah - booooring.

I thought the girl who came up with the best Bible verse was pretty creative. She took it from the book of Genesis. It was the part where God curses the serpent for tempting Adam and Eve to sin. The verse is as follows (abbreviated):

3:14 ...you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

The girls' car had "Eat my dust" painted on it.

Awesome. :thumbsup:

Wait.. a girl? I thought this was a boys youth group?

All the girls saw how much fun the boys have had in previous years, and wanted to be included this year. Their cars were just as good as the boys, if not better. And the "cheaters" in question were all boys.

 

[Krazefinn]

Pretty lame when parents have to usurp there kids initiative and live vicariously through them.
But mebbe beating 10 yr olds in derby is all they can muster. Couldnt compete against own peers....

 

[waggy]

Its not that kids are getting dumber its how we teach them are.

50 years ago we didn't gear classes to improving self esteem. heck they didn't care. Now we cutting AP classes because it might hurt the feelings of those that don't get in. cutting grades because we don't want kids to think this is a competition. We are allowing everyone to get on the team no matter how much they suck etc. With so many standardized test teachers are forced to teach how to take the test and skip what the test really covers.

kids are smarter. We just have the educational system set up for them to fail.

 

[Elderly Newt]

I had a similar experience when I participated in a Pinewood Derby in cubscouts. My dad helped me make the car, obviously, but I still actively participated. I ended up placing second in the race. The kid who placed first had a grandfather who was a professional woodworker - he sold carvings and other items he made, and it was apparent that he made his grandson's car for him.

Oh well, what can ya do?

 

[badmouse]

When I was growing up in the 50's my brothers were in scouts, and they had the Exact Same Thing happen, down to the comments about how "church folk ought to know better" in the church-sponsored scouts. So, nothing new about it. There were always kids who didn't recognize which car was theirs, because they'd never seen it before.

When my son was doing the Pinewood Derby (recently), he did everything himself except sawing. His cars looked like - well, like an uncoordinated grade school kid made them. He got better every year, and finally won top prize his last year. Even the dads who did all the work on their kids' cars were impressed.

That victory felt good.