Theory of the framerate that is smooth to the eye.

[VIAN]

3dfx once said that to play a game and to enjoy all of its goodness, you need to play at 60fps.

Challenge.

We are able to calculate the smooth framerate to the eye by looking at the refresh rate. Refresh rate is different than frames. Refresh rate is how many times the gun flashes in your eyes per second while frames are images on lights. Based on the motion of refresh rate, 60fps is not smooth. At a refresh rate of 60Hz flickering is a bother and causes headaches. I don't see any flickering at 85Hz so I guess 85fps would be the most acceptable framerate. But to some people 100Hz is what they need and 100fps is what they want, so I think that 100Hz@100fps should be the standard for unvisersal satisfaction.

 

[sswingle]

Uhm....ok then

 

[clicknext]

So are you going to suggest some way to have everything run at 100fps@100hz?

 

[MDE]

Not trying to be an a**hole, but WTF are you babbling about?

 

[Corporate Thug]

60 fps is fine for me

 

[cmdrdredd]

the refresh rate and vsync is only good for preventing horizontal tearing

 

[Tab]

Okay, thats nice to know...

 

[boyRacer]

i dont use vsync...

 

[Jeff7181]

I don't use vsync either cause sometimes it halves the frame rates... meaning, my refresh rate is 85 hz... sometimes it cuts the frame rates in half, so I'm only getting 42.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I don't use vsync either cause sometimes it halves the frame rates... meaning, my refresh rate is 85 hz... sometimes it cuts the frame rates in half, so I'm only getting 42.

er...it only makes your MAX framerate 85fps

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I don't use vsync either cause sometimes it halves the frame rates... meaning, my refresh rate is 85 hz... sometimes it cuts the frame rates in half, so I'm only getting 42.

er...it only makes your MAX framerate 85fps

No, every now and then it drops down to 42... and before you put your foot in your mouth, no, my frame rates never drop that low normally... it's only because of vsync.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I don't use vsync either cause sometimes it halves the frame rates... meaning, my refresh rate is 85 hz... sometimes it cuts the frame rates in half, so I'm only getting 42.

er...it only makes your MAX framerate 85fps

No, every now and then it drops down to 42... and before you put your foot in your mouth, no, my frame rates never drop that low normally... it's only because of vsync.

Well, then there's some kind of software weirdness on your computer, because using vsync does NOT affect how fast the GPU/CPU/memory render frames. That's constant no matter what your refresh rate and monitor settings are so if FPS are dropping and the only variable is vsync, then something else on your machine is causing the FPS drop when vsync is turned on.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I don't use vsync either cause sometimes it halves the frame rates... meaning, my refresh rate is 85 hz... sometimes it cuts the frame rates in half, so I'm only getting 42.

er...it only makes your MAX framerate 85fps

No, every now and then it drops down to 42... and before you put your foot in your mouth, no, my frame rates never drop that low normally... it's only because of vsync.

Well, then there's some kind of software weirdness on your computer, because using vsync does NOT affect how fast the GPU/CPU/memory render frames. That's constant no matter what your refresh rate and monitor settings are so if FPS are dropping and the only variable is vsync, then something else on your machine is causing the FPS drop when vsync is turned on.

yep...when I play Q3 with Vsync set to on and my monitor running 100Hz I get 100FPS all the time and never ever ever anything less

 

[Kongzi]

Your comparison is bad mainly because when the gun is redrawing each thing there's a point in which the picture goes away. This causes the flicker effect on lower refresh rates as your brain can notice it better. Run a 60hz refresh rate on a LCD and you won't notice any flicker whatsoever because it's constantly backlit.

 

[JeremiahTheGreat]

yeap, Kongzi is correct.

And Vsync does halve your framerate if your GPU can't pump out the required amount. Eg, at 100Hz refresh rate, if your video card can only pump out 95 FPS, it will drop your FPS down to 50 so the screen remains in sync. (or osmehting like that)

 

[Kongzi]

That's where Triple Buffering comes in to save the day

 

[BFG10K]

Triple buffering only saves the day as far as jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire does.

Enabling triple buffering increases control lag/latency by up to 50% and it also wastes VRAM too.

 

[Richdog]

Hmm, if a monitor is set to 100hz then of course it's going to be smooth looking gameplay @ 60fps. So your logic is a bit dodgy i'm afraid, as 60fps is a perfectly fine and feasible target @ 100hz. Screen refresh rate indicates the theoretical maximum FPS, not necessarily the constant fps, that all depends on the hardware you have in your system... :beer:

 

[McArra]

Originally posted by: Kongzi
Your comparison is bad mainly because when the gun is redrawing each thing there's a point in which the picture goes away. This causes the flicker effect on lower refresh rates as your brain can notice it better. Run a 60hz refresh rate on a LCD and you won't notice any flicker whatsoever because it's constantly backlit.

Yep.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Richdog
Hmm, if a monitor is set to 100hz then of course it's going to be smooth looking gameplay @ 60fps. So your logic is a bit dodgy i'm afraid, as 60fps is a perfectly fine and feasible target @ 100hz. Screen refresh rate indicates the theoretical maximum FPS, not necessarily the constant fps, that all depends on the hardware you have in your system... :beer:

Yep, the theory makes no sense to me whatsoever. A constant 60fps at any refresh rate is beautiful .

Just because 60Hz on CRT monitors is "flickery" doesn't mean 60fps is choppy. Movies run at 24fps in a theatre, and thanks to the darkened room and motion blur they look completely smooth.

Don't confuse refresh rate (screen redraw) with framerate (individual linked frames of animation).

 

[Wedge1]

I turned on vsync for the first time to try out quake3 and the fps dropped to my refresh rate of 75 and remained constant, but the quality of the image is MUCH BETTER than vsync off and an fps of 125 or higher.

Even though I have read this thread, I still don't understand why this is so, lol.


EDIT/ Also, I don't know if tripple buffering is enabled or not as I don't know where to find it, so I can't say if this is helping to produce the high quality image or not.

 

[modedepe]

Yeah I don't really understand the argument. You say refresh rate is different from frame rate, but then you go on to say a 60hz refresh rate is flickery, and therefore 60fps will not be satisfactory either. It just seems like you're contradicting yourself. Even if 100hz@100fps was the "standard for universal satisfaction" I don't think that means anything, because, 1) we often won't be able to get frame rates like that due to technological limitations and 2) not everybody needs that many fps or that high of a refresh rate.

 

[sodcha0s]

I thought 60hz was flickery mainly because your home lighting is also at 60hz (in the US, europe uses 50 cycle current). The flicker is due to your monitor cycles and the lighting cycles being out of sync with each other. And just to add my $.02, 60 FPS is very smooth in a game. I use an LCD@60HZ with v-sync on (hate tearing) and gaming for me is totally smooth.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: MonkeyDriveExpress
Not trying to be an a**hole, but WTF are you babbling about?

Same here.
Just cos you can identify the differences between frame rates and refresh rates does`nt make you an expert.
The 60hz thing you were on about, that only applys to CRTs. My TFT is allways 60hz. But it doesnt flicker.

Originally posted by: shady06
60 fps is fine for me

Anything over 30fps keeps me happy.

 

[Wedge1]

Originally posted by: BoomAM
Anything over 30fps keeps me happy.

You're not talking about 3D intensive gaming are you? Because anything I play (Q3, Undying, DF Black Hawk Down, etc.) need around 80-ish and higher to be smooth.