The ZF-9

bradly1101

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http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...a-finally-sorted-zf-9-speed-automatic-nearly/

This innovation is great. You don't have to have a CVT, and it promises a pretty modest mileage bump, and one would assume smoother shifting. And it adds complexity. I'm no mechanic, and I've seen cutaways of automatic transmissions, it's hard for me to imagine packing more in such a small space without sacrificing something.

My current car has one less gear, and also has had a TSB already for late shifts, and CR dinged it for shifting less smoothly than the previous 6 sp. (and they identified the late shifts, communicated that to Toyota, resulting in the TSB and a manufacture change before too many hit the road), and it's been a long time since I really felt a normal shift in a car.

BTW: I like this article's writing style, like a lot of articles. You can see the passion people have for cars, technology in general. I know this passion well. You may be able to relate. When I was a pretty young kid we got rear-ended. My dad yelled at my brother and me to get on the floor in back. We all made it out fine, but the four-door Rambler ('64?) was raised in the middle like a stick you'd crack over your knee. I'll never forget what it looked like. When I played with my Matchbox cars after that, I'd try to crash them together to see the damage, but in vain.

I remember a fortunate trip to Europe where my mom was auditioning for opera roles in '77. I saw my my first 450 SEL 6.9 in Munich. You could see the subtle upgrades, and I imagined what it would be like to drive one on the Autobahn. It was so fascinating at that age (15) to see the different models there. There were BMW 3-Series with so many engines. I think there was a 316, 318, 320, and 328 (maybe one more?) with various I's and D's. Similar with the 5's.

In '84 my mom had to have a new, loaded Supra 5sp. She let me borrow it a lot, it was great fun. It was the only car I ever saw with a full-sized spare on a wide, aluminum road wheel (as you know the five wheel rotation was common, reducing wear - especially of those expensive tires).

If I ever seem "not into cars" please chalk it up to age; I probably am overly cautious and conservative regarding cars anymore, and I may point toward only reliable brands while seeming less interested in the passion, or not empathetic to it, but nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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XavierMace

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Apr 20, 2013
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This innovation is great. You don't have to have a CVT, and it promises a pretty modest mileage bump, and one would assume smoother shifting. And it adds complexity. I'm no mechanic, and I've seen cutaways of automatic transmissions, it's hard for me to imagine packing more in such a small space without sacrificing something.

My current car has one less gear, and also has had a TSB already for late shifts, and CR dinged it for shifting less smoothly than the previous 6 sp. (and they identified the late shifts, communicated that to Toyota, resulting in the TSB and a manufacture change before too many hit the road), and it's been a long time since I really felt a normal shift in a car.

I feel like you missed the fact that after 4 years, they've "very nearly" fixed all the issues with the transmission. There's been multiple recalls related to the transmission as well as mountains of complaints of issues including rough shifting.
 

bradly1101

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I feel like you missed the fact that after 4 years, they've "very nearly" fixed all the issues with the transmission. There's been multiple recalls related to the transmission as well as mountains of complaints of issues including rough shifting.
Oops, I thought the article's title stated that.
 

rstrohkirch

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The entire article actually. One day it'll work like it was suppose to.

one-day-my-ln72ga.jpg
 
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NutBucket

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Exactly. Whereas the CVT in our Forester works exactly as expected. I'm still scared to buy a car with a ZF-9.
 

ElFenix

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wasn't the 10 speed transmission in the grand cherokee and a bunch of mercs also questionable?
 

bradly1101

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Now I wondered why all cars don't have CVT's, and google was my friend in informing me of their inability (currently) to handle a lot of torque, which explains why they aren't in minivans or sports cars, and that they lack that sporty feel. They go all the way back to 1958 in the Daf in Europe which became the Volvo 340 in '75 - '92 with the CVT.

wasn't the 10 speed transmission in the grand cherokee and a bunch of mercs also questionable?

This search had lots of problems showing up in F-150's. It's a little weird to me that Ford and GM collaborated on their 10 speed. As late as 2015 MB said it wouldn't go higher than 9. And VW killed theirs. More is always better? I told my brother with a little bit of pride that my car has 8 gears, now I'm not so sure about its added complexity. It's interesting to me that some cars used to get by fine with only 2 speed autos.
 

rstrohkirch

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It's just mpg for their ever increasing requirements. IIRC, the zf9 gear ratios put it around 10-15% more efficient over the zf8. Can't remember if that number was in 9th gear or later gears in general.
 

Topweasel

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wasn't the 10 speed transmission in the grand cherokee and a bunch of mercs also questionable?
Not that I know I thought was just a shifter things. Both are basically designed to float back to center after you put it into position. This causes some people to not realize they weren't in park and may have only hit neutral (this is what killed Anton Yelchin).
 

Kaido

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With The 2017 Chrysler Pacifica, Has FCA Finally Sorted The ZF 9-Speed Automatic? Very Nearly
We have had to do an inordinate amount of intervention on that transmission, surely beyond what any of us had forecast,” FCA boss Sergio Marchionne said early last year.
Yet only a few minutes into our first drive in the new Pacifica, it was clear that FCA had finally sorted the previously dreadful nine-speed.

Almost. Mostly. Sort of.
More than a year later and with a different engine in the Jeep Renegade, “you’ll discover a transmission that’s typically unwilling to kick down a gear, let alone the two or three-gear-kickdown that’s required.”
In the Renegade’s Fiat 500X partner: “The 9-speed’s weak points — slamming into second and third gear like it’s been tossed off a cliff — are highlighted on a cold winter’s morning.”
All is bliss.

BAD NEWS

Until, for example, you’re cruising on a highway’s relatively flat plane and for no discernible reason the nine-speed slams into eighth with enough of a jolt to wake a dead-to-the-world two-year-old. Enough of a jolt and shudder for a spectacularly pregnant wife to look over in disgust, and for me to briefly believe that this van is broken.

“What? I didn’t do it, there aren’t even paddles. It’s not like I sent you into premature labor.”

TTAC’s managing editor had a similar experience in this very Pacifica before he fled Nova Scotia with a Fiesta and a U-Haul.

Said Mr. Stevenson this morning: “The Pacifica’s nine-speed is like a jacked best friend with a hair trigger. If you give it the inputs it expects, it’s wholly normal and predictable. But catch it off guard by sneaking up behind it and tapping it on the shoulder with some throttle, it’s as likely to turn around and say hello as it is to kiss you with an enclosed fist. The transmission is completely bipolar, and swings in mood are violent.”

Perfection then? Quite clearly not, as four hours in the Pacifica, with plenty of time left before it leaves our driveway next weekend, have produced wildly mixed results. The 2017 Chrysler Pacifica’s nine-speed automatic performs well when true performance is demanded and when you’re slogging through suburban sprawl. Sadly, all is not well in a variety of other circumstances.

Software update, please?

The issues with my Jeep Renegade boil down to two things: 1, crazy software glitches, 2, crummy transmission. I've more or less gotten used to the way it drives, and I use "manual mode" often when I need more power (ex. merging on a highway, when I can't trust it to give me enough boost to slip in front of an oncoming car at highway speeds), although the software for manual driving is awful & sometimes takes a full two seconds before I see a shift, so I have to remember to get into the right gear early to do say a fast merge, but yeah, it's not a great experience. I would love a Renegade with a standard 6-speed automatic transmission, as that would resolve half my complaints about the car. I'd even consider a manual transmission, except that they neuter the engine (1.4L turbo 160hp vs. 2.4L non-turbo 240hp), plus I sit in traffic a lot, so...no. And don't even get me started on cold-weather performance. The shifts for the first ten minutes feels like I'm driving a locomotive, where I have to hit it with a hammer to get it to shift. Super jerky. So yeah, I'm not a fan. And based on the quotes I picked out from the article, it sounds like the transmission is still a piece of crap. "Almost. Mostly. Sort of." is not the review I'd want in my next vehicle, haha.

I was disappointed to read that reviews were saying similar things about Ford's new 10-speed transmission in the automatic Mustang...same deal as the revised ZF-9, it mostly masks the shifts nicely, but when you need to punch it, it has that weird hesitation & then kicks you as it hiccups. So far, my favorite "transmission" has been electric cars...just nice, smooth acceleration with lots of torque. I would say my second favorite has been the CVT in my wife's '15 Subaru Forester...it doesn't make crazy noises like other CVT's, and once you get used to driving "shiftless", it's a pretty great experience. And zero power issues on our non-turbo engine...I can pass people at 40mph on back roads just as well as I can at 60+ mph on the highway. Beyond that, I've been really happy with pretty much all modern 6-speed transmissions...they are not perfect in every situation, but you know exactly what to expect, and they have improved significantly over the years to the point where a 6-speed auto on a modern vehicle is an extremely smooth driving experience, and given sufficient engine power for the weight of the vehicle, is usually more than enough to safely handle all driving situations, like merging onto a busy highway & passing at appropriate speeds as necessary.
 

Kaido

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Now I wondered why all cars don't have CVT's, and google was my friend in informing me of their inability (currently) to handle a lot of torque, which explains why they aren't in minivans or sports cars, and that they lack that sporty feel. They go all the way back to 1958 in the Daf in Europe which became the Volvo 340 in '75 - '92 with the CVT.

iirc it had a lot to do with licensing/patent issues, followed by transmission longevity. I can say that our Forester feels plenty sporty. In fact, I went to test-drive the turbo model, and the salesman talked me into test-driving the non-turbo model first, and that ended up selling me on the non-turbo.
 
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Kaido

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This search had lots of problems showing up in F-150's. It's a little weird to me that Ford and GM collaborated on their 10 speed. As late as 2015 MB said it wouldn't go higher than 9. And VW killed theirs. More is always better? I told my brother with a little bit of pride that my car has 8 gears, now I'm not so sure about its added complexity. It's interesting to me that some cars used to get by fine with only 2 speed autos.

I nearly traded my Jeep Renegade in for an AWD Dodge Charger last year, which has the 8-speed transmission (instead of the 9-speed). Everything was great, up until I took it on the highway and it had that 2-second non-responsive transmission slump. NOPE! It had plenty of speed & pickup once the transmission woke up, and was actually nicer around town (by far) than my Renegade's transmission was, but that little blip was a dealbreaker for me. Apparently it's a feeling I'm very sensitive to...I just don't like that momentary panic feeling of "holy crap I'm gonna die" because my car won't get into gear & GO when I need it to. It's sad that even my previous couple of budget Saturn sedans were more responsive than the 8 & 9-speed transmissions that FCA uses.
 

Kaido

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Your comment led me to investigate my trepidation of the main chain in CVT's and its rubber parts vs. metal gears. I'm starting to believe it's unfounded as many cars with CVT's are proven very reliable. The CVT's in Subarus are fascinating.

I think it's more like, CVT's have gotten to the point where they are reliable. I remember hearing about a lot of issues with the early CVT's. The current stuff is pretty decent. Although when I test-drove Honda's HR-V, I hated the CVT transmission...almost felt like my Jeep's 9-speed. My brother has a Nissan Versa with a CVT & aside from being noisy (yo-yo's the engine whine is weird ways, like when you first come out of park & pick up speed), it's extremely smooth & he hasn't had any major problems with it that I can recall. And we've been fortunate not to have any transmission issues with our Subaru, either.
 

Kaido

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Exactly. Whereas the CVT in our Forester works exactly as expected. I'm still scared to buy a car with a ZF-9.

Yeah...I'd consider another Forester, but I have long legs & need to man-spread, and that curve on the door just kills me in the Forester :(

I'm still keeping my eye out for a good deal on a 2nd-gen Ridgeline...not only is it decently wide inside (whereas oddly, the new Pilot has the same door-curve that bothers me in the Forester...although it drives awesome!), but because it has a "normal" 6-speed transmission, and I kinda want to hop on that before it disappears, especially because I plan on keeping my next vehicle for 15+ years (which is what my plan was with my Renegade...sigh).

The Forester has turned out to be a really good car for us, to the point where my wife stated that if we ever needed to replace it, we're getting another one. But I'm sure we can push ours to 200k no problem (well, I guess we'll see how the longevity of the CVT is). I think we're already at 40k & haven't had any serious issues yet. I'm considering the new Ascent to replace my Renegade, but as it's being built on a new "global" platform, I'd rather give it a couple years to avoid getting burned on first-gen hardware again ;)
 

Kaido

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I feel like you missed the fact that after 4 years, they've "very nearly" fixed all the issues with the transmission. There's been multiple recalls related to the transmission as well as mountains of complaints of issues including rough shifting.

Which is a pity, because there's a lot of nice features & cool tech in the redesigned Pacifica (although I absolutely loathe the driver's seating position...feels more like sitting in a cramped car than a minivan, ugh!). I test-drove the redesigned Kia Sedona and absolutely LOVED it (note: 6-speed auto tranny), with the single exception that it didn't come in AWD. Now that I've had a taste of AWD/4WD in the winter, I can never, ever go back lol. Getting the right mix of features is kind of hard these days :p
 

Bubbleawsome

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I think 8, 9, and 10 speed transmissions were simply put in the market too early. In a few years they will be just as nice and smooth as a 6 speed auto. Even now some 8 speeds are very nearly as good.
 

bradly1101

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iirc it had a lot to do with licensing/patent issues, followed by transmission longevity. I can say that our Forester feels plenty sporty. In fact, I went to test-drive the turbo model, and the salesman talked me into test-driving the non-turbo model first, and that ended up selling me on the non-turbo.
I've wondered about turbos ever since I knew what they were, subject to such stresses and heat, they seemed to detract from the reliability of cars that had them, and weren't the "free boost" they implied since mileage seemed to always be negatively affected - at least back then.

http://www.record-eagle.com/news/dr...cle_1e983f9a-b7d1-11e4-9c58-2350e5b9a94a.html
 

bradly1101

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I nearly traded my Jeep Renegade in for an AWD Dodge Charger last year, which has the 8-speed transmission (instead of the 9-speed). Everything was great, up until I took it on the highway and it had that 2-second non-responsive transmission slump. NOPE! It had plenty of speed & pickup once the transmission woke up, and was actually nicer around town (by far) than my Renegade's transmission was, but that little blip was a dealbreaker for me. Apparently it's a feeling I'm very sensitive to...I just don't like that momentary panic feeling of "holy crap I'm gonna die" because my car won't get into gear & GO when I need it to. It's sad that even my previous couple of budget Saturn sedans were more responsive than the 8 & 9-speed transmissions that FCA uses.
Yeah, out of interest I'm always looking at car forums of different mfrs. FCA cars look troubled, especially with trannys (but a lot of stuff). I'm in no way trying to insult, and when FCA took control at Chrysler I was wary. I'm old enough to remember Fiat's old reputation here, it was awful, and is what caused their demise back then (IMO). Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge were rarely (if ever) in the recommended range in Consumer Reports' reliability surveys, and never near the top, plus they didn't score well on the road/comfort/etc. So when an Italian unreliably shunned co. took over low-quality American brands, it seemed like a match only a mother could love (IMHO).
 

Kaido

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Yeah, out of interest I'm always looking at car forums of different mfrs. FCA cars look troubled, especially with trannys (but a lot of stuff). I'm in no way trying to insult, and when FCA took control at Chrysler I was wary. I'm old enough to remember Fiat's old reputation here, it was awful, and is what caused their demise back then (IMO). Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge were rarely (if ever) in the recommended range in Consumer Reports' reliability surveys, and never near the top, plus they didn't score well on the road/comfort/etc. So when an Italian unreliably shunned co. took over low-quality American brands, it seemed like a match only a mother could love (IMHO).

Yeah, that's pretty much what it boils down to. We had several Dodges growing up & they all had problems. In my case with the Jeep, it boiled down to 3 mistakes:

1. I had personal experience with FCA's quality control issues in the past, several times over.
2. The Renegade was technically a first-generation car (despite the 500X platform being out for a couple years iirc, because it was an FCA body + ZF-9 transmission), and first generation products always have unknown problems because they are first generation, and also because, like software with specific release dates, the manufacturer has a deadline to meet, so they ship first & fix it later like everyone else
3. Everyone I knew who had a Jeep IRL told me not to get it & half the people on this forum told me not to get it, but I ignored them & got it anyway lol

All of the red flags were there, I just chose to ignore them because I was so excited about the vehicle. Really though, I understand (1) mine in particular is a lemon (I have several friends with later models with zero issues), and (2) the ZF-9 is currently not a perfect transmission, so you get what you get if you buy the automatic model.
 
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Kaido

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I think 8, 9, and 10 speed transmissions were simply put in the market too early. In a few years they will be just as nice and smooth as a 6 speed auto. Even now some 8 speeds are very nearly as good.

Yeah, they'll figure it out eventually. Early automatic transmissions were called slushboxes for a reason. The current 5 & 6-speed automatics are pretty dang smooth these days. imo a properly-built CVT (ex. Subaru) is a superior transmission (for now, at least), but they Ford/GM & FCA needed to develop their own in-house stuff, so it is what it is for now...buyer beware! That "Almost. Mostly. Sort of." line from the OP's article really cracked me up :D
 

bradly1101

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Yeah, that's pretty much what it boils down to. We had several Dodges growing up & they all had problems. In my case with the Jeep, it boiled down to 3 mistakes:

1. I had personal experience with FCA's quality control issues in the past, several times over.
2. The Renegade was technically a first-generation car (despite the 500X platform being out for a couple years iirc, because it was an FCA body + ZF-9 transmission), and first generation products always have unknown problems because they are first generation, and also because, like software with specific release dates, the manufacturer has a deadline to meet, so they ship first & fix it later like everyone else
There are mfrs. who manage to build new generations with nary a hiccup, and no lemons (see Lemon List thread)
3. Everyone I knew who had a Jeep IRL told me not to get it & half the people on this forum told me not to get it, but I ignored them & got it anyway lol

All of the red flags were there, I just chose to ignore them because I was so excited about the vehicle. Really though, I understand (1) mine in particular is a lemon (I have several friends with later models with zero issues), and (2) the ZF-9 is currently not a perfect transmission, so you get what you get if you buy the automatic model.

Desire is a tough nut to crack.
 

rstrohkirch

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There isn't anything wrong with the zf8. If you get into a car that it doesn't work right then it's the software. Though I doubt you'll see the 8 as much anymore unless the vehicle is a bit more sporty.
 

monkeydelmagico

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There isn't anything wrong with the zf8. If you get into a car that it doesn't work right then it's the software. .

Nobody cares. Almost no one even realizes their transmission has software associated with it's function. What everyone does know is when the car tries to kill them. A Honda Pilot or Chrysler Pacifica that decides to shift into neutral in the middle of a busy intersection has a way of getting people's attention.
 

Kaido

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There are mfrs. who manage to build new generations with nary a hiccup, and no lemons (see Lemon List thread)

Ehh...
For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.

TL;DR - they used a data scraper to pull data off a public forum. That's about the least scientific way of gathering data. Start here instead:

http://www.lemonlaw.com/carcomplaintindex.html

And then bounce over to the NHTSA's website for real statistics. There are exactly zero manufacturers who don't have any hiccups, especially with a new generation of vehicles. Even Tesla has their fare share of problems.