The world's most bizarre PC problem

[tokyo jesus fist]

Problem: consistently poor performance in games. Just a while ago, I played Counter-Strike Source, and my FPS dropped as low as 20, with the average FPS being 30-60. All graphics options were set to the minimum, bumpmapping and specular highlighting were disabled (those are console options, not available in the menus), settings from ATI's control panel were set to performance instead of quality. Same thing happened with Riddick, Doom3, 3DMark 2003 and 3DMark 2005.

Specs:
AMD64 3200+
Epox 8KDA (can't remember exact model)
1 Gb RAM (Kingston, 333 Mhz)
Connect3D ATI Radeon X800 Pro
Samsung SP80 SATA hard-disk
Creative Audigy 2
Windows XP Service Pack 2
Zalman ZM400B-APS power supply unit

Every component except the DVD-ROM has been changed multiple times. Both memory sticks have been tested separately, and with a memory testing program. Windows has been tested with and without SP2, the computer has been tested with and without a soundcard, the computer has been tested with an NVIDIA 6600GT, and the computer has been reformatted more times than I can remember. BIOS options have been tweaked (two or three different boards), various driver versions have been tried, the X800 was sent to the shop and they found no problems. And so on.

I've been looking at the problem for over six months, and I've wasted unbelievable amounts of money because I've thought that some component is acting up. Well, as far as I can tell, the problem is neither in the hardware nor in the software. Since we all know that nothing exists beyond hardware and software, you can probably imagine that I'm a bit puzzled.

I've received all the usual pointless suggestions: scan for spyware, reformat, update drivers, sacrifice your dog to satan, pray to Jesus, change component X, free more memory, defragment your hard-disk. I've tried absolutely everything I can think of, I have no spyware, no viruses, no unnecesary background processes or applications, all drivers are the latest, Windows is fully updated...

It's no component on the system, and I can't imagine how it could be a software problem. So what is it? What's causing it? The problem in my computer is performance in games, everything else works exactly as it should.

edit: fixed some spelling.

 

[mechBgon]

1) Welcome to the Forums

2) List all of the power supplies you've tried, brand & model.

3) I'll take a guess that you've got the 8KDA3J but could you open your case and check, please What precise SATA port is your drive on, since we're being thorough, is it the SI3144 or the native nVidia SATA jacks?

4) Sorry for the dumb question, but you have this here hooked up, right?

5) Is the 1GB of Kingston a single module, or two 512's?


That's a start, anyway If you feel like indulging me, you could hit Quote and fill out the thingie below with your own config:

• CORE HARDWARE
  • Power supply Antec TruePower 430
  • Motherboard Asus K8N-E Deluxe
    • Revision 1.03
    • BIOS 1005
  • CPU Athlon64 3000+
    • Core 130nm Clawhammer
  • Memory (2) 512MB Corsair XMS 3200C2 modules
    • Voltage Manually set to 2.7 volts
    • Timings AUTO, results in 2-3-2-6 @ 200MHz
• CARDS
  • Primary video card ATI Radeon 9800Pro AGP 8x
  • PCI slot #1 (top) empty
  • PCI slot #2 empty
  • PCI slot #3 LeadTek Winfast TV/FM tuner card
  • PCI slot #4 Creative Audigy 2 ZS
  • PCI slot #5 LSI Logic Ultra160 SCSI
  • PCI slot #6 (board only has five PCI slots)
• DRIVES
  • Boot drive 160GB Seagate 7200.7
    • Interface Serial ATA
    • Controller hosting this drive nForce3 SATA controller
    • Jumper setting not applicable (SATA)
  • Additional hard drive 40GB Seagate 7200.7
    • Interface Parallel ATA
    • Controller hosting this drive nForce3 standard ATA controller, primary channel
    • Jumper setting Master
  • Additional hard drive 18GB Seagate Cheetah 15k.3
    • Interface SCSI
    • Controller hosting this drive LSI Logic U160 card
    • Jumper setting SCSI ID 01
  • Optical drive #1 NEC 3500A DVD burner
    • Interface Parallel ATA
    • Controller hosting this drive nForce3 standard ATA controller, secondary channel
    • Jumper setting Master
  • Optical drive #2 Lite-On combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW
    • Interface Parallel ATA
    • Controller hosting this drive nForce3 standard ATA controller, secondary channel
    • Jumper setting Slave
• OS AND SECURITY
  • Operating System WindowsXP Professional
  • Service Pack SP2
  • Internet connection Cable
  • Hardware firewall Netgear RP614 router
  • Software firewall WindowsXP firewall
  • Antivirus Norton Antivirus 2004

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
1) Welcome to the Forums

2) List all of the power supplies you've tried, brand & model.

This could be wrong, but:
NoiseBlocker Fortron UltraSilent 350 W
Some generic HEC 300 W supply

3) I'll take a guess that you've got the 8KDA3J but could you open your case and check, please What precise SATA port is your drive on, since we're being thorough, is it the SI3144 or the native nVidia SATA jacks?

8KDA3I. I only seem to have two SATA jacks.

4) Sorry for the dumb question, but you have this here hooked up, right?

Yes.

5) Is the 1GB of Kingston a single module, or two 512's?

Two 512s. Funny thing about them: using one of them separately causes the system to malfunction, but both of them together cause no problems. The other memory, when used separately, works fine but doesn't rectify the framerate problem. Neither seemed to have errors when I ran memtest for one and a half hours.

That's a start, anyway If you feel like indulging me, you could hit Quote and fill out the thingie below with your own config:
--snip--

Maybe later... that's a long list.

 

[aGreenAgent]

Odds are you've probably looked at this, and this is another dumb suggestion...but this happened to me one time, and ever since then I've always checked it.

On device manager, open up the IDE controller, and go to the properties of whichever controller your HD is on. Make sure your HD is set to DMA mode, and not PIO.

 

[mechBgon]

If there's a revision number on your 8KDA3I, that will help since there appear to be two of them: link to the two, one easy way to tell them apart is that the rev. 3.x version has five PCI slots where the other one has six.

One of the notes in the EPoX manual (p. 3-6) is about the use of two double-sided modules. They don't show any possible combination of two DS modules. Are yours double-sided? Not that it clarifies things any, since the mobo only wants to work with both of them installed BTW did you try replacing the motherboard with a different brand/model yet?

Lesse here, what else... Do you have the onboard audio, MIDI and Gameport fully disabled in the BIOS, since the Audigy2 duplicates all those functions? Couldn't hurt. Cool 'n Quiet, got that disabled in the BIOS? If for some freaky reason the mobo decided to downshift the CPU to 800MHz under full load, that would explain the symptoms too. I assume you already tried your Audigy2 in various PCI slots.

I'm not sure how good the Zalman PSUs are, but the Fortrons have a good reputation so a guy would assume that it isn't a power-related issue.

The last random idea for now is that generally it's good to install your video drivers after your service packs, DirectX update and motherboard drivers. By now you may have tried that plenty of times, but I thought I'd throw it out there. SP2 for WinXP also gets you DirectX 9.0C, so then it would be just installing the latest nVidia unified driver package for the motherboard's chipset, rebooting, and installing your video-card drivers.

 

[imported_Phil]

This is just a stab in the dark, you understand, but what's your refresh rate set to?
Do you have V-Sync turned on?

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: aGreenAgent
Odds are you've probably looked at this, and this is another dumb suggestion...but this happened to me one time, and ever since then I've always checked it.

On device manager, open up the IDE controller, and go to the properties of whichever controller your HD is on. Make sure your HD is set to DMA mode, and not PIO.

I'll check the setting, but I honestly don't think that it's a hard-disk problem because I have no performance problems except in games. Also, if I stand still for five minutes in HL2's singleplayer, the disk shouldn't be loading anything at that point.

Originally posted by: mechBgon
One of the notes in the EPoX manual (p. 3-6) is about the use of two double-sided modules. They don't show any possible combination of two DS modules. Are yours double-sided? Not that it clarifies things any, since the mobo only wants to work with both of them installed BTW did you try replacing the motherboard with a different brand/model yet?

I honestly don't know if they are double-sided or not. I've never been too interested in memory. This same problem occured when I had a different MB (Asrock K8S8X, Via chipset) and a different AMD64 CPU (3000+ instead of 3200+).

Lesse here, what else... Do you have the onboard audio, MIDI and Gameport fully disabled in the BIOS, since the Audigy2 duplicates all those functions? Couldn't hurt. Cool 'n Quiet, got that disabled in the BIOS? If for some freaky reason the mobo decided to downshift the CPU to 800MHz under full load, that would explain the symptoms too. I assume you already tried your Audigy2 in various PCI slots.

Everything that I don't need has been disabled (midi, gameport, audio, serial etc.). I've been unable to find a setting for Cool'n'quiet, even though it's there according to the manual. It could have been renamed in a BIOS update, I don't know. The Audigy 2 has been in various PCI slots.

I'm not sure how good the Zalman PSUs are, but the Fortrons have a good reputation so a guy would assume that it isn't a power-related issue.

Well, all the reviews said that it's a great PSU, and I've had no problems. Voltages and such seem to be alright.

The last random idea for now is that generally it's good to install your video drivers after your service packs, DirectX update and motherboard drivers. By now you may have tried that plenty of times, but I thought I'd throw it out there. SP2 for WinXP also gets you DirectX 9.0C, so then it would be just installing the latest nVidia unified driver package for the motherboard's chipset, rebooting, and installing your video-card drivers.

I always install the display driver last.

Originally posted by: Phil
This is just a stab in the dark, you understand, but what's your refresh rate set to?
Do you have V-Sync turned on?

85 Hz, V-Sync is off.

--

I just noticed something... while playing CS, my FPS drops even when there's nothing on the screen. I played on a 32 player server, there was a lot going on, but nothing on my screen (just a wall). So maybe it's the CPU? People have claimed that Cool'n'quiet reduced performance, but unfortunately it would seem that it can't be deactivated on my motherboard, or maybe it doesn't exist at all.

Observation #2: an older BIOS update talks about Cool'n'quiet... but there's no sign of Cool'n'quiet in my BIOS.

Updated to the latest BIOS... still no CnQ. Maybe CnQ doesn't really cause any problems, but it disturbs me that it cannot be deactivated, supposing that it's activated at all - there's no way to know if it is.

Uninstalled AMD's CPU driver... no change. Counter-Strike: Source's stress test gives me over 120 FPS average, but the game itself runs poorly.

 

[pkypkypky]

Didn't read everything...but here's what comes to mind..

do you install vid drivers with NAV disabled?

Did you try benchmarking your vid card with a 3dmark product to see if it's par with other avg scores?

Also, did you try to isolate the problem at all? I would think about using another vid card to see if you experience the same probs.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Are you having problems with just CSS or with other games as well? Are you having these problems offline or online (keep in mind the HL2 single player in online)? I have been having performance issues with games and found out it was due to two of my pieces of hardware sharing an IRQ number, which was causing one of them to fail.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: pkypkypky
Didn't read everything...but here's what comes to mind..

do you install vid drivers with NAV disabled?

Er... what's NAV?

Did you try benchmarking your vid card with a 3dmark product to see if it's par with other avg scores?

I've benchmarked. 3DMark 2005 gave me scores on par with similiar systems, but framerates were terrible. 3DMark 2003 also gave me really bad framerates. It shouldn't happen with a system like this.

Also, did you try to isolate the problem at all? I would think about using another vid card to see if you experience the same probs.

It's all explained in the thread, you know. Every component except the DVD-ROM has been changed.

Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy
Are you having problems with just CSS or with other games as well? Are you having these problems offline or online (keep in mind the HL2 single player in online)? I have been having performance issues with games and found out it was due to two of my pieces of hardware sharing an IRQ number, which was causing one of them to fail.

If I stand in the City 17 square in HL2 (right after the trainstation), my FPS is around 30-40 or so. In CSS, the FPS is okay when I'm offline and alone (no bots). Online, it can drop as low as 30 even though nothing is happening on the screen.

I can't see any IRQ conflicts on my system.

 

[Smilin]

Something else to add to your list of shots in the dark:

Deep in your display settings you'll find a setting that allows hardware acceleration on either one or two monitors. Although you may not be using duals be sure it is set to only accelerate the primary display.

 

[jkoon]

NAV = Norton Anti-Virus

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: jkoon
NAV = Norton Anti-Virus

Oh. I don't have Norton, or any other AV program.

Originally posted by: Smilin
Something else to add to your list of shots in the dark:

Deep in your display settings you'll find a setting that allows hardware acceleration on either one or two monitors. Although you may not be using duals be sure it is set to only accelerate the primary display.

Hmm, can't find it.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: tokyo jesus fist

Originally posted by: jkoon
NAV = Norton Anti-Virus

Oh. I don't have Norton, or any other AV program.

I know you might not want to hear it but that's a red flag that might possibly apply to your problem. You should get some AV if for no other reason than to eliminate viruses as variables from this difficult troubleshoot.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: tokyo jesus fist

Originally posted by: jkoon
NAV = Norton Anti-Virus

Oh. I don't have Norton, or any other AV program.

I know you might not want to hear it but that's a red flag that might possibly apply to your problem. You should get some AV if for no other reason than to eliminate viruses as variables from this difficult troubleshoot.

I've never had a single virus (or spam or spyware), and I reformat so often that even if I did have some, they get wiped out regularly.

 

[pkypkypky]

Did you try benchmarking your vid card with a 3dmark product to see if it's par with other avg scores?

I've benchmarked. 3DMark 2005 gave me scores on par with similiar systems, but framerates were terrible. 3DMark 2003 also gave me really bad framerates. It shouldn't happen with a system like this.

Also, did you try to isolate the problem at all? I would think about using another vid card to see if you experience the same probs.

It's all explained in the thread, you know. Every component except the DVD-ROM has been changed.


Okay, so what did other cards experience? Scores that were on par but with bad framerates again? Are you sure you have a problem at all? Certain tests will give you low framerates. If your score is on par, you're not describing any problems really. Are you getting incredibly choppy video as you progressively play in games like CS? In the beginning, you say fps drops to 20 at times, but what exactly is the problem??? Does it stay at 20?...does it become unbearable to play after a while? What I mean is, without staring at the FPS#....is your gameplay really terrible?

If that truly is the case, maybe you have a memory leak somewhere. That is an nforce3 board similiar to what I use. I can tell you right now, I have had nothing but probs with dual channel mode, which is why I use single channel. And this is with 3 systems built on it. That is something I'd suggest.

 

[pkypkypky]

Originally posted by: pkypkypky

Did you try benchmarking your vid card with a 3dmark product to see if it's par with other avg scores?

I've benchmarked. 3DMark 2005 gave me scores on par with similiar systems, but framerates were terrible. 3DMark 2003 also gave me really bad framerates. It shouldn't happen with a system like this.

Also, did you try to isolate the problem at all? I would think about using another vid card to see if you experience the same probs.

It's all explained in the thread, you know. Every component except the DVD-ROM has been changed.

---------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so what did other cards experience? Scores that were on par but with bad framerates again? Are you sure you have a problem at all? Certain tests will give you low framerates. If your score is on par, you're not describing any problems really. Are you getting incredibly choppy video as you progressively play in games like CS? In the beginning, you say fps drops to 20 at times, but what exactly is the problem??? Does it stay at 20?...does it become unbearable to play after a while? What I mean is, without staring at the FPS#....is your gameplay really terrible?

If that truly is the case, maybe you have a memory leak somewhere. That is an nforce3 board similiar to what I use. I can tell you right now, I have had nothing but probs with dual channel mode, which is why I use single channel. And this is with 3 systems built on it. That is something I'd suggest.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: pkypkypky
Okay, so what did other cards experience? Scores that were on par but with bad framerates again? Are you sure you have a problem at all? Certain tests will give you low framerates. If your score is on par, you're not describing any problems really. Are you getting incredibly choppy video as you progressively play in games like CS? In the beginning, you say fps drops to 20 at times, but what exactly is the problem??? Does it stay at 20?...does it become unbearable to play after a while? What I mean is, without staring at the FPS#....is your gameplay really terrible?

It dropped down to 12 when I was playing cs_compound. I'd say that I have a problem. I tried out a 6600GT, it had exactly the same problems.

If that truly is the case, maybe you have a memory leak somewhere. That is an nforce3 board similiar to what I use. I can tell you right now, I have had nothing but probs with dual channel mode, which is why I use single channel. And this is with 3 systems built on it. That is something I'd suggest.

I don't think I have dual channel mode.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Bump.

I'm getting new RAM on monday, I'll see if it changes anything. It's a different brand, and supposedly well suited for nForce boards.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Ok, new memory installed: no change. I also tested Doom 3's demo, and the framerates hovered around 30 - 60 (high quality, 1024x768).

It is not a hardware problem, it's not related to device drivers and I can't figure out how it could be a problem in the settings either. I'd say that this problem is impossible to solve.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: tokyo jesus fist
Ok, new memory installed: no change. I also tested Doom 3's demo, and the framerates hovered around 30 - 60 (high quality, 1024x768).

It is not a hardware problem, it's not related to device drivers and I can't figure out how it could be a problem in the settings either. I'd say that this problem is impossible to solve.

Those sound like expected framerates to me.

Doom 3 will dip in the 30s and it's capped at 60. I would say you are probably CPU bound at that resolution. Bump up your resolution and I bet you don't see a noticeable dip in performance.

Also, run that demo a second time to get accurate results. Or use the pre-cache/pre-fetch console command before you start (don't remember - maybe someone will post).

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Those sound like expected framerates to me.

Doom 3 will dip in the 30s and it's capped at 60. I would say you are probably CPU bound at that resolution. Bump up your resolution and I bet you don't see a noticeable dip in performance.

Also, run that demo a second time to get accurate results. Or use the pre-cache/pre-fetch console command before you start (don't remember - maybe someone will post).

I didn't run a timedemo, I just ran around in the first level. Ok, so supposing that Doom 3 would normally dip into the 30s with this hardware (I doubt it), it still doesn't explain why HL2 gives me such bad performance.

 

[Smilin]

Doom 3 would definately dip in the 30s on that hardware. You get into a good fight and you might see 25 for a brief blip.

30-40 fps in halflife 2 isn't unheard of either. It kindof depend where you are standing at what you are looking at.

If this all sounds odd to you, I don't think you have a healthy respect for just what these games are asking of your hardware. Both HL2 and D3 were designed to run at maxed out settings on hardware that doesn't exist yet.

btw, HL 2 does have a well documented "stuttering" issue at certain load points in the game.

 

[imported_Phil]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Doom 3 would definately dip in the 30s on that hardware. You get into a good fight and you might see 25 for a brief blip.

30-40 fps in halflife 2 isn't unheard of either. It kindof depend where you are standing at what you are looking at.

If this all sounds odd to you, I don't think you have a healthy respect for just what these games are asking of your hardware. Both HL2 and D3 were designed to run at maxed out settings on hardware that doesn't exist yet.

btw, HL 2 does have a well documented "stuttering" issue at certain load points in the game.

Yup. :thumbsup:

Athlon 2600+, gig o' RAM and a 9600 Pro here, and HL2 runs at 1024x768@32-bit at around 45fps with details to Medium.

OP, what detail level are you running Half-Life 2 with? Try Medium and see what framerates you get.

Also, post your 3DMark 2003/2005 score.

 

[tokyo jesus fist]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Doom 3 would definately dip in the 30s on that hardware. You get into a good fight and you might see 25 for a brief blip.

30-40 fps in halflife 2 isn't unheard of either. It kindof depend where you are standing at what you are looking at.

Well Jesus, what kind of hardware do I need to run games these days? An IBM supercomputer?

If this all sounds odd to you, I don't think you have a healthy respect for just what these games are asking of your hardware. Both HL2 and D3 were designed to run at maxed out settings on hardware that doesn't exist yet.

btw, HL 2 does have a well documented "stuttering" issue at certain load points in the game.

Everyone else reports perfectly fine and stable frame rates, even people with computers less powerful than mine. Furthermore, if I reduce the image quality to the absolute minimum (using HL2's menu and console settings and ATI's control panel), the framerates don't change at all. It's not a normal performance issue that I'm experiencing.

Originally posted by: Phil
Yup.

Athlon 2600+, gig o' RAM and a 9600 Pro here, and HL2 runs at 1024x768@32-bit at around 45fps with details to Medium.

OP, what detail level are you running Half-Life 2 with? Try Medium and see what framerates you get.

Also, post your 3DMark 2003/2005 score.

I think 3DMark is a joke. No matter what kind of crappy framerates I get, it still gives me a good score.