The World must see this

[Corn]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

The thing is, you retard

Great argjewment. I concede.

LOL, another racist idiot exposes himself and we all get to point and laugh at his 1 inch long man-gina. This is classic.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Halamish said the map showed how Hamas does not hesitate to use civilian infrastructure for its terrorist activity. A brown dot marked next to a mosque represents a sniper position. "This is a civilian area, and you can see on the map how Hamas booby-trapped the entrance to homes to hit the IDF," Halamish said.

The traps and snipers were obviously set for the Israeli military. Where is the terrorism in that?

Hamas are most certainly terrorists, and I condemn them for their attacks on civilians, but that obviously wasn't what was going on here.

The "terrorism" isn't being inflicted upon the IDF, it is the Palestinian civilian population being terrorized by these tactics. What do you think the IDF is going to do now that these tactics have been brought to light? Houses will now just end up being bombed from the air instead of being searched by troops. Who do you think is going to suffer the most because of these tactics? Here's a hint, it won't be the IDF.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"Traditional rules of war" changed in the 1770s when the colonies used snipers, special forces, hit and run tactics, etc.. No more "Gentleman's Rules".

yeah, it is the same saying, "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". What the colonists did in the Revolutionary war was EXACTLY what is considered terrorism now. Our forefathers had no problems organizing their resistance in churches, and sniping soldiers in city streets, etc.. The founders of this country fought against a government they had no representation on that still controlled their moves, kinda exactly like what Hamas is doing.

Interesting... I do not recall reading ANY stories of U.S. Revolutionary War fighters attacking innocent civilians or intentionally using them as human shields... care to provide a link?

I also seem to remember our rag tag and woefully less equipped and inexperienced army meeting the far superior armed and numbered enemy on the battlefield--something that Hamas is EXACTLY afraid of doing.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: dahunan
just fighting injustice with injustice

Like Israel follows all the rules eh?

You are lucky the boogieman Neocons created called Al-Qaeda doesn't help.. right?

Let me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

lol so if I buy your house, you're going to claim I kicked you out of your house and pushed you off your land? fucking ridiculous.

Someone there got "paid" for their land???? Got any receipts to prove that?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They had an election, they chose Hamas. Hamas is not new - it exists since 1988 or so, was responsible for the most horrific suicide bombings against Israel and still they brought it up to power. There might have been other interests for them in doing that, but I'd hardly call it "passive".

We have already been though both the points you mention, so please quit pretending you are telling me something I don't already know. Anyway, to recap, for those who haven't seen our previous conversations:

• Hamas wasn't even ellected by a majority of Palestinian voters, just a 45% plurality.

• Hamas was formed during the First Intifada I mentioned earlier, after 20 years of Israeli colonization continued to ignore popular Palestinian passive resistance.

Granted, you don't care about those facts as your only concern is spreading hate against Palestinians as Israel continues to colonize most of what little is left of Palestine out from under them. You have obviously been raised to do just that, and have no intention of stopping. Considering that, here is something else I'm sure you don't care to acknowledge:

Making Enemies

How Israel helped to create Hamas

...

Hamas first emerged in 1987. It was formed from various charities based in the Palestinian territories with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement born in Egypt in the 1920s from which many of today?s radical Islamic sects, including al-Qaeda, have sprung. Israel allowed these Islamic charities to gain strength and influence in Palestinian areas, hoping that they would counter the influence of secular Palestinian resistance movements. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas until his death by Israeli air strike in 2004, formed Hamas as the military wing of his group the Islamic Association, which was licensed by Israel 10 years earlier. During that period, when there was open conflict between Israeli forces and Palestinian nationalists, Israeli officials gave the nod to and even indirectly funded the establishment of Islamic societies in the West Bank and Gaza that might weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization. Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, has said, ?[W]e saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism.? The very Islamic groups ?cultivated? by Israel in the 1970s became Hamas in the 1980s, which went on to become Israel?s biggest nightmare in the 1990s. It remains so today.
...

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017//

That is the deeds of the gold calf you bow to.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Corn
I also seem to remember our rag tag and woefully less equipped and inexperienced army meeting the far superior armed and numbered enemy on the battlefield--something that Hamas is EXACTLY afraid of doing.

Remember from where, some movies? Try some history books.

Our Revolutionaries laid traps in towns and sniped off Redcoats from cover, and for such guerilla tactics they were considered terrorists by the British.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"Traditional rules of war" changed in the 1770s when the colonies used snipers, special forces, hit and run tactics, etc.. No more "Gentleman's Rules".

There are rules of war created in the modern era, post WW2 that are being violated.

People never set booby traps in WW2

People never used church steeples as sniper posts in WW2?

No one bombed fuel depots in WW2?

Honestly OP, I have *slightly* more sympathy for Israel in general, although both sides disgust me...but this is a real disappointment. The Palestinians had an article about Israeli snipers deliberately targeting children...can't your propaganda machine do SLIGHTLY better than a map showing fairly obvious military strategies for an invading army in urban warfare?

Just firebomb gaza like the allies did during WW2 w/ Dresden. Enough pussyfooting it. It will worked out ok. After all, presently, there doesn't seem to be a cycle of violence in Germany.

Like shermans march to the sea, if the Isreals don't half asses it.. its going to work... No cycle of violence in atlantic..

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Well glad that's straightened out. Obviously this 60yr struggle has been completely solved by Freshgeardude. No, no need for any dissenting opinions to be brought up as everything is now completely settled. The Palestinians are evil and the Israelies are good so the IDF can just go ahead and put these pitiful Palestinians out of their misery then everyone can go have a big sundae.

[/sarcasm]

Funny thing is that lots of people seem to assume that Israel is the bad guy and that the Palestinians are always innocent victims.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They had an election, they chose Hamas. Hamas is not new - it exists since 1988 or so, was responsible for the most horrific suicide bombings against Israel and still they brought it up to power. There might have been other interests for them in doing that, but I'd hardly call it "passive".

We have already been though both the points you mention, so please quit pretending you are telling me something I don't already know. Anyway, to recap, for those who haven't seen our previous conversations:

• Hamas wasn't even ellected by a majority of Palestinian voters, just a 45% plurality.

While you are certainly adept at repeating such facts, I don't think you comprehend the meaning. Hamas is the chosen government for the Palestinians in Gaza, as simple as that.

• Hamas was formed during the First Intifada I mentioned earlier, after 20 years of Israeli colonization continued to ignore popular Palestinian passive resistance.

Passive?

Granted, you don't care about those facts as your only concern is spreading hate against Palestinians as Israel continues to colonize most of what little is left of Palestine out from under them. You have obviously been raised to do just that, and have no intention of stopping. Considering that, here is something else I'm sure you don't care to acknowledge:

I don't hate them (but then, I don't hate anyone in general). I do think Israel has treated this situation wrongly, and should have made something with the colonized territories back then - either give them back as part of peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, or transfer it to the international community or just drive the population away from these territories and annex the area in full. After all, these ARE territories justly conquered from aggressors (Jordan and Egypt), which to the best of my knowledge, stands the test of the international law.

The problem here is of demographics and not territory, and Israeli leaders back then were foolish not to solve it.

They were just a bunch of peasants misled by their leaders into fighting an horrible war, one that they can't win.

Making Enemies

How Israel helped to create Hamas

...

Hamas first emerged in 1987. It was formed from various charities based in the Palestinian territories with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement born in Egypt in the 1920s from which many of today?s radical Islamic sects, including al-Qaeda, have sprung. Israel allowed these Islamic charities to gain strength and influence in Palestinian areas, hoping that they would counter the influence of secular Palestinian resistance movements. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas until his death by Israeli air strike in 2004, formed Hamas as the military wing of his group the Islamic Association, which was licensed by Israel 10 years earlier. During that period, when there was open conflict between Israeli forces and Palestinian nationalists, Israeli officials gave the nod to and even indirectly funded the establishment of Islamic societies in the West Bank and Gaza that might weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization. Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, has said, ?[W]e saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism.? The very Islamic groups ?cultivated? by Israel in the 1970s became Hamas in the 1980s, which went on to become Israel?s biggest nightmare in the 1990s. It remains so today.
...

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017//

That is the deeds of the gold calf you bow to.[/quote]

Oh, like the CIA and Bin Laden? That was around the same time, too, no? A coincidence?
Anyway, everybody makes mistakes sometimes. Many of such manipulations tend to backfire at the manipulator.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Well glad that's straightened out. Obviously this 60yr struggle has been completely solved by Freshgeardude. No, no need for any dissenting opinions to be brought up as everything is now completely settled. The Palestinians are evil and the Israelies are good so the IDF can just go ahead and put these pitiful Palestinians out of their misery then everyone can go have a big sundae.

[/sarcasm]

Funny thing is that lots of people seem to assume that Israel is the bad guy and that the Palestinians are always innocent victims.

The amazing thing about that is that Hamas stands against anything the typical foreign supporters believe in - freedom, secularism, equal rights to women, and tolerance to the other. These poor souls think it's a Cha Guevera style revolution, and fall for the romance of the "freedom fighters". The fact that they are fighting the Jews probably doesn't hurt at all.

While, in reality, these groups mark the darkest corners of the human race.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dahunanLet me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

Of course, when you drop the entire context of why stuff like that might be happening, it does make the party that's in control look like the bad guys.

However, if you add context the situation looks very different:

--The Jews--a group of people known for being extremely pacifist to a fault--came to mostly worthless land inhabited by primitive barbaric people who treated women like cattle and rejuvenated the land through their own backbreaking labor and much of the land was purchased.

--The Arabs and Palestinians intended and attempted to commit outright genocide against the Jews after having killed hundreds if not thousands of them in Mufti-inspired pogroms.

--The Israelis have bent over backwards and been far more generous and gentle than almost any other nation or group of people would have been given the same situation.

--The Palestinians have continuously attacked the Israels through terrorism and rockets and purposely hide in populated areas hoping that civilians will get killed in retaliatory strikes.

So...now we know why the Palestinians have been "treated like sewer rats", as you say. Isn't it amazing how adding a little context can change one's view of the situation? Instead of welcoming the Jews and Western Civilization and its ability to improve their lives with open arms, the Palestinians have waged a continuous war against the Israelis. In reality, had they been peaceful and begged the Jews to take over all of the land and to integrate them into an Israeli society and to help modernize them and introduce them to Western Civilization they would be 10,000 times better off and living better than almost all other Arabs and Muslims worldwide.

In a way you have to feel badly for the Palestinian people--most are or were illiterate savages who were easily manipulated by interested powers (the Mufti, effendis, other nations in the Arab world) much to their detriment and used like pawns. Basically, the Palestinians have brought all of this down on themselves.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: BrownTownyeah, it is the same saying, "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". What the colonists did in the Revolutionary war was EXACTLY what is considered terrorism now. Our forefathers had no problems organizing their resistance in churches, and sniping soldiers in city streets, etc.. The founders of this country fought against a government they had no representation on that still controlled their moves, kinda exactly like what Hamas is doing.

So you're saying that the American colonists shot cannons and indiscriminately fired muskets at British civilians?

The American colonists waged a war against British soldiers who were more often then not actually dressed up in soldiers uniforms (red ones). I have yet to hear about American colonists setting off bombs in London.

Your post suggests tremendous intellectual dishonesty on your part.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuyIf the pali's turn peaceful then Israel has no reason not to play ball and will be called out for it if they don't, hopefully by the USA with the threat of Z E R O support if they don't play ball. That is how you end this cluster f***, but good luck getting the pali's to even consider that.

The problem is that we and the Israelis know that the Palestinians will not turn truly peaceful. They might appear to be ready to give Israel a hug--while holding knives behind their backs. So even though they might appear to want peace and might fool the world, we know what it is that they really want. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Who fucking cares.. it doesn't give you the right to murder more innocents.. Eye for an Eye Makes the whole world go blind

Israel takes out eyes at a rate of 200:1?? and then wonders why their neighbors want to kill them

These people voted for Hamas, a known terrorist organization. So, how are they "innocent"?

If they are so "innocent" then how come they haven't strung up the Hamas members? Why doesn't anyone who attempts to set up a rocket launcher get sniped?

If American terrorists started shooting rockets into Canada and the U.S. government and populace just twiddled its thumbs and allowed it to happen and condoned it and even funded the terrorists and assisted them, would Canada be right in attacking the U.S.? Just about any nation would be ready to go to war and exterminate the problem.

If the situation were reversed the Arabs and Muslims would have long since slaughtered every Jew in Palestine, raped all of the women 100 times and then gouged out their eyes and cut off their ears and noses, so please don't put the Palestinians and Muslims up on a higher moral ground.

 

[chess9]

There are nothing but non-military targets in Gaza. It's a densely populated metropolis with millions of poor people. The only military installations are some barracks and training grounds. How could Hamas NOT involve civilians?

I don't support Hamas at all, but Israeli elections are coming up. This is exactly the same thing Bush did by invading Iraq, and guaranteeing his second term. The moderates are trying to defuse Netanyahu.

Neither side is humane. These are religious nut cases, on both sides.

-Robert

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: chess9
There are nothing but non-military targets in Gaza. It's a densely populated metropolis with millions of poor people. The only military installations are some barracks and training grounds. How could Hamas NOT involve civilians?

I don't support Hamas at all, but Israeli elections are coming up. This is exactly the same thing Bush did by invading Iraq, and guaranteeing his second term. The moderates are trying to defuse Netanyahu.


Neither side is humane. These are religious nut cases, on both sides.

-Robert

Politics maybe, religious? No one in the top leadership of Israel is even remotely religious. Not Olmert, not Barak, not Livny, and not the Army Chief of Staff. Don't try to equalize this - one party feels godsend by Islam, the other feels godsend by his public.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Corn
I also seem to remember our rag tag and woefully less equipped and inexperienced army meeting the far superior armed and numbered enemy on the battlefield--something that Hamas is EXACTLY afraid of doing.

Remember from where, some movies? Try some history books.

Our Revolutionaries laid traps in towns and sniped off Redcoats from cover, and for such guerilla tactics they were considered terrorists by the British.

LOL, there is a good bit of difference between using the cover of the terrain to attack an enemy vs using the cover of civilian population centers like schools or churches. One wonders what history books you've been reading:

While the American Revolutionary War is often thought of as a guerrilla war, guerrilla tactics were uncommon, and almost all of the battles involved conventional set-piece battles. Some of the confusion may be because Generals George Washington and Nathanael Greene successfully used a strategy of harassment and progressively grinding down British forces instead of seeking a decisive battle, in a classic example of asymmetric warfare. Nevertheless the theater tactics used by most of the American forces were those of conventional warfare. One of the exceptions was in the south, where the brunt of the war was upon militia forces who fought the enemy British troops and their Loyalist supporters, but used concealment, surprise, and other guerrilla tactics to much advantage. General Francis Marion of South Carolina, who often attacked the British at unexpected places and then faded into the swamps by the time the British were able to organize return fire, was named by them The Swamp Fox. However, even in the south, most of the major engagements were set-piece battles of conventional warfare. However the guerrilla tactics in the south were a key factor in the prevention of British reinforcement to the north, and that was a decisive factor in the outcome of the war. See also Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys, for another American Revolutionary War example.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: dahunanLet me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

Of course, when you drop the entire context of why stuff like that might be happening, it does make the party that's in control look like the bad guys.

However, if you add context the situation looks very different:

--The Jews--a group of people known for being extremely pacifist to a fault--came to mostly worthless land inhabited by primitive barbaric people who treated women like cattle and rejuvenated the land through their own backbreaking labor and much of the land was purchased.

Wow.. Pacifists.. even these Zionists in here will laugh their ass off at you.. lol...

They murdered British soldiers and UN peacekeepers when Israel was created..

Who in the fuck did they buy the land from?? You do realize that they are superior to you unless you are Jewish and that their God said that land was theirs so they have used force and murder and oppression to take it

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I don't hate them (but then, I don't hate anyone in general). I do think Israel has treated this situation wrongly, and should have made something with the colonized territories back then - either give them back as part of peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, or transfer it to the international community or just drive the population away from these territories and annex the area in full. After all, these ARE territories justly conquered from aggressors (Jordan and Egypt), which to the best of my knowledge, stands the test of the international law.

Wasn't that land originally given to Israel as part of the Balfour Declaration and then didn't it happen to end up in Jordanian hands at the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, meaning that Jordan might have effectively conquered it from the Israelis? The land was then taken or liberated by Israel in the Six Days War. So might it be their own land that they are allegedly colonizing? It seems like an excellent argument could be made that Israel should be entitled to ownership of the West Bank by virtue of its having taken it as part of a defense action in the Six Days War and also as a result of its military value.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: dahunanLet me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

Of course, when you drop the entire context of why stuff like that might be happening, it does make the party that's in control look like the bad guys.

However, if you add context the situation looks very different:

--The Jews--a group of people known for being extremely pacifist to a fault--came to mostly worthless land inhabited by primitive barbaric people who treated women like cattle and rejuvenated the land through their own backbreaking labor and much of the land was purchased.

Wow.. Pacifists.. even these Zionists in here will laugh their ass off at you.. lol...

They murdered British soldiers and UN peacekeepers when Israel was created..

Who in the fuck did they buy the land from?? You do realize that they are superior to you unless you are Jewish and that their God said that land was theirs so they have used force and murder and oppression to take it

So basically Mcowned gets a weeks' vacation and you are here to cover for as forum dunce during his absence?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: dahunanLet me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

Of course, when you drop the entire context of why stuff like that might be happening, it does make the party that's in control look like the bad guys.

However, if you add context the situation looks very different:

--The Jews--a group of people known for being extremely pacifist to a fault--came to mostly worthless land inhabited by primitive barbaric people who treated women like cattle and rejuvenated the land through their own backbreaking labor and much of the land was purchased.

Wow.. Pacifists.. even these Zionists in here will laugh their ass off at you.. lol...

They murdered British soldiers and UN peacekeepers when Israel was created..

Who in the fuck did they buy the land from?? You do realize that they are superior to you unless you are Jewish and that their God said that land was theirs so they have used force and murder and oppression to take it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

Just one of the organizations who bought land in Palestine back then. Baron Rothschild bought some too, as well as others. Lands were bought from Arab owners.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I don't hate them (but then, I don't hate anyone in general). I do think Israel has treated this situation wrongly, and should have made something with the colonized territories back then - either give them back as part of peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, or transfer it to the international community or just drive the population away from these territories and annex the area in full. After all, these ARE territories justly conquered from aggressors (Jordan and Egypt), which to the best of my knowledge, stands the test of the international law.

Wasn't that land originally given to Israel as part of the Balfour Declaration and then didn't it happen to end up in Jordanian hands at the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, meaning that Jordan might have effectively conquered it from the Israelis? The land was then taken or liberated by Israel in the Six Days War. So might it be their own land that they are allegedly colonizing? It seems like an excellent argument could be made that Israel should be entitled to ownership of the West Bank by virtue of its having taken it as part of a defense action in the Six Days War and also as a result of its military value.

Good argument, which also extends to the Golan Heights, which were in Syrian control for less time than they are in Israeli possession now. Makes you wonder.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: dahunanLet me treat you like a sewer rat and push you and your family off your land and build walls around you and kill a few innocent neighbors every few months and then tell me you would be just a sweet little neighbor

Of course, when you drop the entire context of why stuff like that might be happening, it does make the party that's in control look like the bad guys.

However, if you add context the situation looks very different:

--The Jews--a group of people known for being extremely pacifist to a fault--came to mostly worthless land inhabited by primitive barbaric people who treated women like cattle and rejuvenated the land through their own backbreaking labor and much of the land was purchased.

Wow.. Pacifists.. even these Zionists in here will laugh their ass off at you.. lol...

They murdered British soldiers and UN peacekeepers when Israel was created..

Who in the fuck did they buy the land from?? You do realize that they are superior to you unless you are Jewish and that their God said that land was theirs so they have used force and murder and oppression to take it

So basically Mcowned gets a weeks' vacation and you are here to cover for as forum dunce during his absence?

You know you are worthless here since you have admitted many many times your only stated goal in here is to try and cause trouble.. and be a troll... you said so yourself many times in the past

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dahunanWow.. Pacifists.. even these Zionists in here will laugh their ass off at you.. lol...

They murdered British soldiers and UN peacekeepers when Israel was created..

The Jews were historically pacifist--until, after centuries of pogroms and the Holocaust, they decided to defend themselves. The point is that if these people who are prone to pacifism were finally compelled to take up arms, there must have been an excellent reason for it.

Who in the fuck did they buy the land from?? You do realize that they are superior to you unless you are Jewish and that their God said that land was theirs so they have used force and murder and oppression to take it

Some of the land was purchased from effendis and muktars who enjoyed the thought of exchanging worthless land for money. Much of it was barren wasteland and swampland that was transformed and rejuvenated into productive farmland through backbreaking labor.

 

[dahunan]

^^ Even what you say is true about pacifism then... look at them now.. they look like the monsters