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The WMD Lying Game.... and of course the raw facts if you can handle them

Trezza

Senior member
Sep 18, 2002
522
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wouldn't it be sooo funny if it turns out that bush didn't lie to us and it was the british. oh that would be unpossibly funny
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
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dont go any further unless you want a real in depth look at Iraq and their WMD program. I have found the CIA's 2002 assessment, the British govt. assesment, and the official UN reports, all linked here.....

Iraq and the UN

THE ASSESSMENT OF THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT IRAQ?S WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

CIA's Oct 2002 Assessment


UNRESOLVED DISARMAMENT ISSUES IRAQ?S PROSCRIBED WEAPONS PROGRAMMES


Thirteenth quarterly report of the Executive Chairman of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission in accordance with paragraph 12 of Security Council resolution 1284 (1999)
30 May 2003United Nations Security Council

13. Again, with respect to anthrax, the Commission, as it reported, had strong
indications ? but not conclusive evidence ? that all the quantities produced had
not been destroyed, and that hence even today such quantities could remain.

14. By the time inspections were suspended, the Commission had performed a
number of inspections to try to verify, as described in the present report, intelligence
information that Iraq had mobile units for the production of biological weapons. The
Iraqi side denied that any such units existed and provided the Commission with
pictures of legitimate vehicles, which they suggested could have been mistaken for
mobile units. However, none of the vehicles in those pictures resembles the trucks
recently described and depicted by the Coalition.

118. During an inspection on 7 January 2003 of the Al Mamoun site, UNMOVIC
inspectors observed two large propellant casting chambers. Iraq declared that those
casting chambers had originally been acquired for the Badr 2000 project. That was a
proscribed project, and although UNSCOM had supervised the destruction of the
two casting chambers in 1991 Iraq had managed to refurbish them for use in their
current solid propellant missile projects.

119. The destruction of the chemical weapons agent mustard gas, which had started
at the end of February, was completed in March 2003. Under UNMOVIC
supervision, Iraq destroyed the 155 mm shells and the mustard gas contained in
them. The shells found in 1997 were stored at a declared location ? the former
Muthanna State Establishment. In total, there were 14 shells, containing
approximately 49 litres of the agent ? four of them had been earlier emptied and
sampled by UNSCOM. The agent was destroyed by chemical reaction and the empty
shells with explosives. Samples taken from the shells showed that mustard gas
produced over 15 years ago was still of high quality ? 97 per cent purity.

E. 122 mm chemical warheads
122. An UNMOVIC inspection team found 12 undeclared 122 mm chemical
warheads and motors at the Al Ukhaidar ammunition depot (11 of them were
unfilled and 1 filled with water). Iraq notified the Commission on 20 January 2003
that four more warheads had been found at the Al Taji ammunition depot. In
February 2003, an UNMOVIC team discovered an additional two undeclared 122
mm chemical warheads at the same depot (one of the six warheads discovered at the
Al Taji depot was filled with liquid that was subsequently identified as water). In
total, 18 chemical warheads were tagged by UMOVIC for destruction.

4. UNSCOM identified other specific instances of Iraq?s activities after 1991 that
were in violation of the relevant Security Council resolutions. For example, a
shipment of proscribed missile gyroscopes destined for Iraq was intercepted en route
to Iraq in 1995 (see S/1996/848).

2. Destruction of additional items identified by UNSCOM after 1994
8. In 1996, UNSCOM found new evidence of chemical production and analytical
equipment and precursor chemicals acquired for chemical weapons purposes still
remaining in Iraq. Many of those items had been exempted from destruction by the Commission in 1995 on the basis of false Iraqi declarations as to their past use or intended purpose. In 1997, UNSCOM designated for destruction and supervised the
disposal of the following newly identified items and materials (see S/1996/848):
? 325 pieces of production equipment (of those, possession of 120 pieces was
only disclosed by Iraq in August 1997);
? 125 pieces of analytical instruments;
? 275 tons of precursor chemicals.


so I guess these must be the WMD Bush "made-up"....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
That's nice.

Now the administration said they knew where WMD's were and what they were. Where are they?

BTW, it is interesting to note that the CIA document is George Tenet approved, and not necessarily what the senior analysts would have presented to the President. That is a failing here of the system, to provide what was asked for, not what was.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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I was wondering where Alistar and his WMD obsession went.....looks like he's back in force.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,469
1
76
Let's put this in perspective.

I rob somebody with a gun. You kick my ass then return the loot. I wave my gun at you and say I'm going to kill you, there is even proof that I had planned an assassination attempt against you prior. I threaten some more and then yield saying I will be good and get rid of my piece. You reluctantly yield and say ok, but I'm going to send some people to check on you occasionally to make sure you are not packing.

A few days go by of people coming by and I grow tired of it.
"Infidels leave me alone or I will keel U!"
I start to throw rocks at you and any of your people that come near me. I pay money to the families of people who die trying to kill your people. I even kill my own people that complain about me. You hear it through the grapevine that I did not get rid of the weapon.

You ask me about it and I say "Sure I got rid of it".
You ask me "How?"
I say "I don't know"
You say "I'm going to go check"
I say "The hell you say. Only with people I approve of like the people I have already bought off and then will be escorted with men payed to kill them if they find anything"
You say "FU, you PoS"
I say "You are going to die biyatch"

I give the gun to my cousin Vinny to hold for me until after the fight.
You kick my ass and can't find the gun.
I scream to everybody around like what this bully has done to me
Being that I am surrounded with people that I have paid off, terrorist lovers, America haters and people that will die if they oppose their elders; they start calling you names.
You say "FU you hypocrites"

The End
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,710
5
0
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Let's put this in perspective.

I rob somebody with a gun. You kick my ass then return the loot. I wave my gun at you and say I'm going to kill you, there is even proof that I had planned an assassination attempt against you prior. I threaten some more and then yield saying I will be good and get rid of my piece. You reluctantly yield and say ok, but I'm going to send some people to check on you occasionally to make sure you are not packing.

A few days go by of people coming by and I grow tired of it.
"Infidels leave me alone or I will keel U!"
I start to throw rocks at you and any of your people that come near me. I pay money to the families of people who die trying to kill your people. I even kill my own people that complain about me. You hear it through the grapevine that I did not get rid of the weapon.

You ask me about it and I say "Sure I got rid of it".
You ask me "How?"
I say "I don't know"
You say "I'm going to go check"
I say "The hell you say. Only with people I approve of like the people I have already bought off and then will be escorted with men payed to kill them if they find anything"
You say "FU, you PoS"
I say "You are going to die biyatch"

I give the gun to my cousin Vinny to hold for me until after the fight.
You kick my ass and can't find the gun.
I scream to everybody around like what this bully has done to me
Being that I am surrounded with people that I have paid off, terrorist lovers, America haters and people that will die if they oppose their elders; they start calling you names.
You say "FU you hypocrites"

The End
How bout this perspective. Back in the 80's you have a quarrel with your neighbor, but he has a knife so you feel underpowered. Me being a gun dealer see a great opportunity, so I come in and say hey, why don't you take my gun, and go teach this neighbor of yours a lesson? You happily agree and go shoot your neighbor a couple of times. Years later I come back and say, you remember that time I gave you a gun to help you fight your neighbor? Well it's payback time and I want some of that beer in your fridge and I wanna build a shed on your front lawn to house my lawn equipment. You say to hell with that I thought we were friends! So I get mad and park a truck in front of your garage preventing you from driving to the store to buy groceries, hoping you will just starve nto submission. You being a wise-ass start walking to the store so I get mad and run around the town screaming "hes got a gun hes got a gun! we should call the police and raid his house!" (little does anyone know the police station is actually the living room of my home and many of the ranking officers are part of my family). So people around the block get all scared not recalling how many times you have been caught distributing guns from your garage to passing hooligans, and they call the police to plead and whine but the police have some ranking officers which don't agree with me and my family and they are causing all sorts of problems with my plan, so I decide to grab my good old friend who has bad teeth and drinks too much tea and we go over and kick your ass, don't find any gun in your house, but still raid the beer in your fridge and start building sheds on your lawn to house my huge supply of lawn equipment. Some people around the block wonder why the police didn't handle the situation and why I haven't found a gun, but I just ignore them and eventually they just forget anyway and continue to live a sheep-like life.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
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"The WMD Lying Game"

say what?.....more gibberish from the Left....let's review what they've said on this topic in the recent past:

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

The attacks on Bush and "no WMD found" is good ol' politics....
that's o.k., we expect that from the dems..but just don't start believing
the crap you say is actually factual.....
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
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Nice to know you get your sources from the OPINION column at yahoo.com and FAS.org, the most right winged group that does not deserve their name "scientists".
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
All the opinions, statements, reflections, analogies are nice but the fact remains: where are the justifiers for the invasion of Iraq? Either Bush is lying, The Intel folks are inept or lying, or Saddam is the master of illusion. It the latter is true then Bush and/or the intel folks will be hard pressed to justify the invasion of Iraq to the American people. As will Blair. If either fall... both, I think, will fall. If all of this is blamed on faulty intel then both may survive but, I doubt it. There is already sounds comming from the CIA and other Intel folks putting the onus on the Administration. Congress or the congress people have a 'get out of the soup free' card... "the president assured me". Either they find more than balloon trucks soon or even the finding of WMD will do nothing to stave the call for hearings and eventual "further action" by congress. I think the Administration has a month at best to find something. After that, the majority of anti Bush folks will yell "Planted", maybe even some of the center and right leaning folks as well.
 

zantac

Senior member
Jun 15, 2003
226
0
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Blair's own ministers and former ministers (two resigned as the war began) are saying that he had already secretly agreed to back President Bush on going to war, and then lied to them about that.

so who lied to who? You mean even Bush was lied to about some of the intelligence....

you're reading too much into that sentence. who lied to whom? eh? Blair lied to Britain, Bush lied to US.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: dexvx
Nice to know you get your sources from the OPINION column at yahoo.com and FAS.org, the most right winged group that does not deserve their name "scientists".
next time click the links, they are to official UN reports, US and British intelligence reprots, etc...


and yes it is factual heartsurgeon, and how you could assume I was stating anything other than how obvious it is Saddam never complied is beyond me.....


Blair's people have publicly admitted they intentioanlly lied to Bush about their assessment that Iraq could use WMD in 45 minutes, complete fabrication, Bush also repeated this though....
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
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Originally posted by: dexvx
Nice to know you get your sources from the OPINION column at yahoo.com and FAS.org, the most right winged group that does not deserve their name "scientists".
Op/Ed - Richard Reeves

OXFORD, England -- When I left Washington a few days ago, most Americans seemed generally unconcerned that our soldiers and spies had found no WMD, the weapons of mass destruction that were supposed to be the reason for going to war in Iraq (news - web sites). After all, we won easily, and we were finding mass graves that certainly proved Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) was a homicidal monster.

I could go on -- and the British are. The story so far is that the country's intelligence agencies are leaking stories contending that the prime minister and his men forced them to eliminate their judgment that Saddam Hussein was not an imminent threat to anyone before the British released a 50-page intelligence report -- used both here and in the United States -- to justify the invasion of Iraq by the English-speaking alliance.

The greatest distortion, those sources say, was Blair's declaration that Iraq could activate chemical, biological and nuclear weapons within 45 minutes.

Yes the sources you complain about because they are referenced in an op/ed piece are British intelligence sources who are PUBLICLY giving information in the UK.

do you even know what is happening in the UK over this right now? the people who have resigned, the information about their intelligence, their admission of blatantly lying about the 45 minute readiness bs? Read the article at least, maybe you can improve your understanding.

FAS is a right wing group? Because they provide direct links to the actual UN documents, or the ones the Brits and US used to justify their action? Where is the right wing bias in their site then? What is their agenda?

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,966
3,756
126
I refuse to believe I had anything to do with the murder of thousands of people.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I refuse to believe I had anything to do with the murder of thousands of people.
you didn't, the world would be no different if you were not here, no offense.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Alistar7 - <<Blair's people have publicly admitted they intentioanlly lied to Bush about their assessment that Iraq could use WMD in 45 minutes, complete fabrication, Bush also repeated this though.... >>

Maybe I'm a little slow, but I can't seem to locate where it states that the Brits lied to Bush, instead of the other possibility...you know, "Here ya go GW. It's a little on the 'fabricated' side, but I figure we can use it to garner support for our little venture."

This quote...Blair's own ministers and former ministers (two resigned as the war began) are saying that he had already secretly agreed to back President Bush on going to war, and then lied to them about that. ...suggests, to me anyway, that Blair lied to his ministers about the secret agreement to back Bush. Are you suggesting that the quote implies that Blair lied to Bush?



Oh, and Ali, I'm still waiting for you to supply a link to support your claim that the inspectors were denied access to certain sites. Let me say again (for the billionth time) that I remember it differently, but I could very well be wrong and if you would be so kind as to supply a link to verify what you said I'd be grateful.

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
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Where did i claim they were denied access to sites? maybe you have me confused with someone else. Don't remember saying that but I would agree Saddam was less than cooperative in arranging inspections. I wouldn't doubt if they were denied immediate access to sites not already on a list though. I have linked the actual UN reports themselves, there is probably a definitive asnswer tothat question in there.

Yes the Brits have admitted making that 45 minute assessment up, read some of the UK papers, it has been all over there for some time now.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,966
3,756
126
you didn't, the world would be no different if you were not here, no offense.
-----------------------------
None taken.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
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Originally posted by: Alistar7
Where did i claim they were denied access to sites? maybe you have me confused with someone else. Don't remember saying that but I would agree Saddam was less than cooperative in arranging inspections. I wouldn't doubt if they were denied immediate access to sites not already on a list though. I have linked the actual UN reports themselves, there is probably a definitive asnswer tothat question in there.

Yes the Brits have admitted making that 45 minute assessment up, read some of the UK papers, it has been all over there for some time now.
You were just talking sh!t here?
Alistar7 - <<Unlike Insane's claim the UN was never given access to sites to determine if WMD were destroyed there, maybe at the very end with the al-samouds that were offered as a herring, but that was far too late.>> C'mon dude, it was just a couple of days ago. Surely, you're not prone to just make stuff up in order to advance your agenda. ;)

Yes, I know of the Brits and the fabricated evidence. What I'm not clear about is the validity of your claim that the Brits lied to Bush as well, as opposed to the administration knowing it was made up. Can you show me?


 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
That's not clear whether it was presented as fact to Bush or if he was aware that was a "spiced up" version, we will never know that though, Bush is not going to sell Blair out, especially after he went to bat for him and is now taking heat.

We may never know how much was spun, but we do know much was based in facts that were failry well believed by the international community and their respective intelligence agencies. At least some of what Powell presented was absolutely accurate. According to the British, every "find" by the UN (other than one) was based on information from their intelligence, the UN would not confirm nor deny that, but it's probably true. With a track record like that you would be inclined to believe them as well.

As far as site inspections in areas where WMD's were supposedly destroyed, they were given access to sites Saddam claimed were the locations. Part of the problem they had in the Anthrax area was the amount of time elapsed, coupled with the fact it was also the same exact location used for years to destroy old stockpiles, waste, etc... Some tests indicated the claims they made could not be accurate, something based on an agent they used to aid in the process. That information is in this link under the unresolved issues, that's the offical UN report. It also covers the nerve agent areas that were submitted as sites where destruction took place, and the results of those findings as well as every other part of Iraq's program and all findings and admissions. It's a load, but there is a ton of usefull information. They were given access to those sites years ago though, right after the gulf war. Even if given credit for those claims, there still is unaccounted for stockpiles of both left, which is exactly why the UN never stopped looking.

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Alistar7 - << That's not clear whether it was presented as fact to Bush or if he was aware that was a "spiced up" version, we will never know that though, Bush is not going to sell Blair out, especially after he went to bat for him and is now taking heat.

So you weren't referring to this when, in your first post, you said "You mean even Bush was lied to about some of the intelligence.... "?


<<That information is in this link under the unresolved issues, that's the offical UN report.>> What link, Ali? This is all I could find. Admittedly, it's from late January, but it's all I could find. The most important point to make is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect and with one exception it has been prompt. Seriously, I'd like to know if they were given access to all sites they wanted to go to or not.

 

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