The war against school choice...

[imported_Shivetya]

John Stossel writes about school choice and gang issues and how it all comes down to the Teachers Unions spending the money it takes from members and uses it to prevent parents and students from having the opportunity of a better education.

We are never going to improve our education system by throwing money at it. Its been tried, some of the most expensive public schools are the worst when it comes to education. the state's teachers union, which spends eight times more money on politics than the state's Republican and Democratic parties combined. How isn't that a problem?

In many successful European countries the tax money for the child's education follows the child, where the parent chooses to educate the child is where the tax money goes.

* I think he goes a little overboard with the gang activity stories in this article, but only to a point. If students are members of gangs why do we allow them in school in the first place?

 

[Kur]

As much as teachers are important to our growing country I don't see how they can have so much job security that if they harass or break the law with a kid in their class they are simply stuck in a room downtown because their contract. While I agree they should have some protection from a principal just firing teachers because they don't like the teacher there shouldn't be protection from law-breaking teachers.

I would love to see the programs that other countries have to be start here. My high school is supposed to be the top 50 in the country yet almost every teacher sucked and now I'm sitting in college going "wtf is home work, when did I we learn that?" They don't really care if you pass or fail they just want you to move on so they don't have to see you next year and it's a joke. It's the same lame ass read from the book and do X and X pages or X worksheet. They teachers need to adapt to the new generation, this isn't 50 years ago when that was top notch kids today learn different and sitting in a boring class sucks. I will admit I had some great teachers, usually comedy in the class is great instead of teachers that have something stuck up their ass.

 

[ProfJohn]

Democrats view on Pro-Choice

Choosing to kill an unborn baby=good
Choosing which school to send you child to=bad

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats view on Pro-Choice

Choosing to kill an unborn baby=good
Choosing which school to send you child to=bad

Thanks for the stereotypes .....

I happen to think choice in education, as with anything else in life is good. Not only do I work in a Public Charter School, but my son is enrolled to start Kindergarten this fall.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats view on Pro-Choice

Choosing to kill an unborn baby=good
Choosing which school to send you child to=bad

Thanks for the stereotypes .....

I happen to think choice in education, as with anything else in life is good. Not only do I work in a Public Charter School, but my son is enrolled to start Kindergarten this fall.

Stereotypes or the official Democratic Platform?

Kind of like the ?GOP lied about Civil Unions? thread.
I have no problem with civil unions, but a few of our Presidential candidates made some not so friendly remarks about civil unions so we can now cast the entire GOP as being against civil unions, right?

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats view on Pro-Choice

Choosing to kill an unborn baby=good
Choosing which school to send you child to=bad

Thanks for the stereotypes .....

I happen to think choice in education, as with anything else in life is good. Not only do I work in a Public Charter School, but my son is enrolled to start Kindergarten this fall.

Stereotypes or the official Democratic Platform?

Kind of like the ?GOP lied about Civil Unions? thread.
I have no problem with civil unions, but a few of our Presidential candidates made some not so friendly remarks about civil unions so we can now cast the entire GOP as being against civil unions, right?

For one I have never seen that as 'an official' platform, and even it was, so what. I can make up my own mind on issues regardless of party. Can you say as much? You constantly come in these forums spouting repub talking points and frankly it makes me sick. It's people like you and your god Limbaugh who have make politics so partisan and brought in so much hate. Like I posted a few years ago, I always considered myself middle of the road when dealing with politics, that was until some jackass like you starting throwing labels because I didn't agree with all the repub postions.

The world is not black and white and no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to make it so. So please, drop the partisan talking points and start acting like an American.

 

[Darwin333]

I would like to invite anyone who is against giving poor families the choice to send their children to a school of their choosing to enroll your own child in one of New Orleans public schools. Our public schools are graduating students who can not read at a 6th grade level and have not mastered basic mathematics.

Our school system has hit very rock bottom so I don?t buy the excuse that giving parents vouchers will ?hurt? the public school system. Even if it did, currently the public school system is severely hurting the children that have no other choice but to receive an extremely sub-par education. We tried to pass a voucher law but it got shot down. One of the loudest groups against it was the ACLU because a parent could choose to send their child to a Catholic school and believe that government money should never go to religious schools?. Even at the expense of another generation of children who can?t read or add.


And under-funding of the public school system is NOT the problem. The state/parish pay twice as much per child to give a child a horrible education than the local private schools cost per child to give them a great education.

 

[piasabird]

Being free means giving people the chance to fail.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I would like to invite anyone who is against giving poor families the choice to send their children to a school of their choosing to enroll your own child in one of New Orleans public schools. Our public schools are graduating students who can not read at a 6th grade level and have not mastered basic mathematics.

Our school system has hit very rock bottom so I don?t buy the excuse that giving parents vouchers will ?hurt? the public school system. Even if it did, currently the public school system is severely hurting the children that have no other choice but to receive an extremely sub-par education. We tried to pass a voucher law but it got shot down. One of the loudest groups against it was the ACLU because a parent could choose to send their child to a Catholic school and believe that government money should never go to religious schools?. Even at the expense of another generation of children who can?t read or add.


And under-funding of the public school system is NOT the problem. The state/parish pay twice as much per child to give a child a horrible education than the local private schools cost per child to give them a great education.

Now let's think about that for a minute. Do you think that one reason the private schools have a lot easier time of things is because they don't have to deal with the really insanely bad kids that the public schools do? The severely learning disabled ones? The ones abused at home? I'm guessing the private schools there don't have so many of those. You think these kids and these problems are going to go away if you send them to charter schools?! Hellllll no they won't.

Under-funding IS the problem, but maybe not for the reasons you think. The needs of the schools aren't so much hurt by the fact that they don't have enouch pencils or books (although that is a problem), it is that there is absolutely NO incentive for good teachers to go to/stay at bad schools like that. The good ones get paid more, and have less trouble at a school that is already "good", so they abandon the poor ones.

What we really need is a large financial/professional incentive for the best teachers and staff to work at these schools. Make them a place people fight to get a job at instead of a place where new teachers go because they lack the experience to get a job anywhere else. Then see how those schools do... I bet you it would be night and day.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats view on Pro-Choice

Choosing to kill an unborn baby=good
Choosing which school to send you child to=bad

More like whatever your kind think is good we know is really really bad.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I would like to invite anyone who is against giving poor families the choice to send their children to a school of their choosing to enroll your own child in one of New Orleans public schools. Our public schools are graduating students who can not read at a 6th grade level and have not mastered basic mathematics.

Our school system has hit very rock bottom so I don?t buy the excuse that giving parents vouchers will ?hurt? the public school system. Even if it did, currently the public school system is severely hurting the children that have no other choice but to receive an extremely sub-par education. We tried to pass a voucher law but it got shot down. One of the loudest groups against it was the ACLU because a parent could choose to send their child to a Catholic school and believe that government money should never go to religious schools?. Even at the expense of another generation of children who can?t read or add.


And under-funding of the public school system is NOT the problem. The state/parish pay twice as much per child to give a child a horrible education than the local private schools cost per child to give them a great education.

Now let's think about that for a minute. Do you think that one reason the private schools have a lot easier time of things is because they don't have to deal with the really insanely bad kids that the public schools do? The severely learning disabled ones? The ones abused at home? I'm guessing the private schools there don't have so many of those. You think these kids and these problems are going to go away if you send them to charter schools?! Hellllll no they won't.

Under-funding IS the problem, but maybe not for the reasons you think. The needs of the schools aren't so much hurt by the fact that they don't have enouch pencils or books (although that is a problem), it is that there is absolutely NO incentive for good teachers to go to/stay at bad schools like that. The good ones get paid more, and have less trouble at a school that is already "good", so they abandon the poor ones.

What we really need is a large financial/professional incentive for the best teachers and staff to work at these schools. Make them a place people fight to get a job at instead of a place where new teachers go because they lack the experience to get a job anywhere else. Then see how those schools do... I bet you it would be night and day.

I agree with the latter part of your post. However, the vast majority of students that are graduating out of the local public school system CAN NOT READ. Not just the learning disabled, not just the abused but the MAJORITY of them. You will still need special programs for children with special needs but presently none of them are getting educated. Vouchers could give the majority of children a chance at a decent education whereas more of the same will result in our high school graduates not being able to even read a college application.

 

[marincounty]

First of all, consider your source. John Stossel is a libertarian asshat that would like to get rid of almost all govt programs. The free market can do it better.
And conservatives are always saying more money isn't the answer, than why are you trying to grab the public schools money?
The public schools in my area are great, most students go to college and do just fine.
Maybe the constant underfunding of public schools is the problem in many areas.
How about we rename this thread "The war against public schools"?

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: marincounty
First of all, consider your source. John Stossel is a libertarian asshat that would like to get rid of almost all govt programs. The free market can do it better.
And conservatives are always saying more money isn't the answer, than why are you trying to grab the public schools money?
The public schools in my area are great, most students go to college and do just fine.
Maybe the constant underfunding of public schools is the problem in many areas.
How about we rename this thread "The war against public schools"?

What if the funding was superb yet the results where still horrible with no immediate improvement in sight. Would you still deny the children even a decent education in order to not "grab the public schools money"?

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: marincounty
First of all, consider your source. John Stossel is a libertarian asshat that would like to get rid of almost all govt programs. The free market can do it better.
And conservatives are always saying more money isn't the answer, than why are you trying to grab the public schools money?
The public schools in my area are great, most students go to college and do just fine.
Maybe the constant underfunding of public schools is the problem in many areas.
How about we rename this thread "The war against public schools"?

What if the funding was superb yet the results where still horrible with no immediate improvement in sight. Would you still deny the children even a decent education in order to not "grab the public schools money"?

No, I would suggest new management of the school district, not turning the money over to some religious wing nuts.

 

[Rainsford]

My problem with vouchers is that it works by "magic". Or more specifically, nobody explains how exactly the process produces a better education system. There is just this idea that if you take the $X you currently pay in taxes towards public schools and get it back from the government to use to send your kid to whatever school you want, some sort of free-market magic will produce better education for everyone. Exactly HOW this works is almost never elaborated on, except with some vague hand-waving about how the free market will always do better than those dirty socialist teachers. You want me to buy into your argument, stop taking the Bill O'Reilly approach.

For the moment, I'll assume that the lack of quality in the education system might have something to do with the money we put into it. Call me crazy, but paying teachers like they work at Burger King doesn't seem like a very good way to get high quality education. And even relatively well funded schools have constant supply shortages and overcrowded classes. Are you honestly arguing that none of those things make ANY difference at all, and that all our problems would be fixed with "choice"? Am I the only person who finds that logic a little questionable?

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
My problem with vouchers is that it works by "magic". Or more specifically, nobody explains how exactly the process produces a better education system. There is just this idea that if you take the $X you currently pay in taxes towards public schools and get it back from the government to use to send your kid to whatever school you want, some sort of free-market magic will produce better education for everyone. Exactly HOW this works is almost never elaborated on, except with some vague hand-waving about how the free market will always do better than those dirty socialist teachers. You want me to buy into your argument, stop taking the Bill O'Reilly approach.

For the moment, I'll assume that the lack of quality in the education system might have something to do with the money we put into it. Call me crazy, but paying teachers like they work at Burger King doesn't seem like a very good way to get high quality education. And even relatively well funded schools have constant supply shortages and overcrowded classes. Are you honestly arguing that none of those things make ANY difference at all, and that all our problems would be fixed with "choice"? Am I the only person who finds that logic a little questionable?

Yes.

 

[UberNeuman]

I wonder if John Stossel ever thinks about David Schults.....

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Rainsford
My problem with vouchers is that it works by "magic". Or more specifically, nobody explains how exactly the process produces a better education system. There is just this idea that if you take the $X you currently pay in taxes towards public schools and get it back from the government to use to send your kid to whatever school you want, some sort of free-market magic will produce better education for everyone. Exactly HOW this works is almost never elaborated on, except with some vague hand-waving about how the free market will always do better than those dirty socialist teachers. You want me to buy into your argument, stop taking the Bill O'Reilly approach.

For the moment, I'll assume that the lack of quality in the education system might have something to do with the money we put into it. Call me crazy, but paying teachers like they work at Burger King doesn't seem like a very good way to get high quality education. And even relatively well funded schools have constant supply shortages and overcrowded classes. Are you honestly arguing that none of those things make ANY difference at all, and that all our problems would be fixed with "choice"? Am I the only person who finds that logic a little questionable?

Yes.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Jhhnn]

 

[Jhhnn]

Stossel has become just another shill for the rightwing money machine-

http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientprofile.php?recipientID=106

Not to mention the rather disingenuous use of the Texas public school system as a whipping boy... It's Dubya's "success story", yet one of the Nation's least notable, and the blueprint for NCLB, thanks to the successful efforts of the rightwing to cut off their funding.

Want the rest of the nation's public schools to be like Texas? Just follow the pied piper school choice advocates to get there. They preach a self-fulfilling prophecy of destruction.

 

[Genx87]

You know, I give the EU shat about a lot of things. But from my limited exposure ignorant knowledge of their eduction system. I'd say they have done one thing correct compared to our system. The money follows the kid, which is imo the way it should be. The money is supposed to be used to educate the kid, not fill the pockets of union bosses on their minions.

One thing is right, money isnt the complete issue here. Many of the highest per pupil costs in the state of mn produce the worst results.

And the techers unions spend lots of money on politicians(mostly democratic) to make sure those 7-12% pay raises continue to come down the pipe for their members while the school falls apart and the kids are reading a book froom the 1970's.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: marincounty
First of all, consider your source. John Stossel is a libertarian asshat that would like to get rid of almost all govt programs. The free market can do it better.
And conservatives are always saying more money isn't the answer, than why are you trying to grab the public schools money?
The public schools in my area are great, most students go to college and do just fine.
Maybe the constant underfunding of public schools is the problem in many areas.
How about we rename this thread "The war against public schools"?

What if the funding was superb yet the results where still horrible with no immediate improvement in sight. Would you still deny the children even a decent education in order to not "grab the public schools money"?

No, I would suggest new management of the school district, not turning the money over to some religious wing nuts.

That has been done 3 times starting 6 years ago. So a child that was starting 6th grade when the plan you just advocated started is going to graduate this year. That same child will most likely graduate without knowing how to read or do basic mathematics.

I do see your point though. Much better to have an entire generation of graduates not having the basic skills they need to go to college or get a decent job is much better than giving parents a choice to give their children a chance at a real education.