The Wall

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: ThePresence
What alot of people fail to realize is that all this land was land won in wars. Israel decided to return part of it (which is something no other country would ever consider doing), as a peace gesture. Then they get slammed for giving away too little. Now, when they try to build a wall to defend themselves, again, they are "stealing" land. It's insanity, they can never win. Whatever they do is not good enough. Not utill they give away the entire country. Even then, I'm sure people would still think it's not enough.

You sir, do not understand International Law.

Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory. (Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 47)

Not only does it violate the Geneva Convention, it violates UN Resolutions which established Israel's borders, and where the Internaitonal community has recognized Israel's borders to be.

"Winning land by land wars" is not legitimate anymore, but apparently you are living in the 17th century. Especially when Israel occupied this land after a pre-emptive war.

Okay, let's all become citizens of the Crown again. Maybe we should give back the Southern States to the Confederacy? I know I'm taking extreme, rediculous examples, but I'm just trying to illustrate my point. The pre-emptive war argument is a joke. All the armies were massed on the borders. They were going to be attacked. If they had just sat there and waited for attack, then there might have been no more Israel, and alot of people would be alot happier. Not me.

Look at the massive amount of troops on the DMZ or in the Kashmir region- does that mean one of those countries should launch an overwhelming pre-emptive strike on the other? What would have happened in the 1950's if Kennedy decided to honor a policy of pre-emptive strike? Would we be alive today?

Regardless, your argument is going no where. If you do not honor the Geneva Conventions and UN Resolutions, then just say so, because then there's no point in trying to argue.

Presence says he's American but has served in the Israeli army as a border guard. Anyone who would go and serve in another country's army is a traitor IMO, and, if nothing else, is going to be biased and extreamly unobjective about any issue facing that country.

I lived in the country at the time, I wasn't simply a visitor. I don't have to defend myself to your opinion. Your view of what a traitor is - is just that - your view. You don't know anything about me, maybe I'm a dual citizen? Or maybe I became an American citizen afterwards? Did the thought even occur to you? Regardless, my citizenship issues are private and will remain so, I feel no need to defend myself against your opinion. I do agree that I'm probably biased, but theres a reason for that. I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

 

[kage69]

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I do agree that I'm probably biased, but theres a reason for that. I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

I understand, however you saw it from one perspective, and to each situation there are countless perspectives which may contradict and clash with eachother. Given that however, whether you are biased for the Israelis or Palestinaians, there is no reason a wall (let's not even bring up it's effect it would have on security, if any) should be built miles from the official Israeli border.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: kage69

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

Hopefully he didn't do any of this.

Israel Border Police Confronts Own | AP-NY-09-21-00 1818EDT

by RON KAMPEAS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) -- One time, the assailants dragged three men out of a car,
severely beat them, and then posed for photos, boots triumphantly on neck.
Another time, they beat a man senseless in an argument over a soccer field.

In both cases, the attackers wore the distinctive dark green khakis of Israel's
Border Police.

The 7,200-strong force has long been renowned for its ferocity, but the recent
gang-like attacks have prompted cries for reform.

Human rights activists say the violent behavior is condoned by Border Police
commanders. ''It's a policy of closing one's eyes,'' said Yael Stein of the
Betselem human rights group.

Border Police spokesman Peretz Ratzon said cases of brutality are exceptions,
noting 47 complaints in the past nine years. But human rights activists believe
many cases go unreported.

Still, the growing criticism prompted the unit to bring 300 of its top officers
together with Palestinians and human rights experts this week in an effort to
get to the root of the problem.

''Many of them are only 18-years-old, and we ask them to enforce the law,''
said Deputy Commissioner Moshe Karadi, who is in charge of training and who
organized Wednesday's conference. ''Some of them have not achieved the
necessary maturity.''

The Border Police was established as an arm of the police soon after the
state's establishment in 1948 to deal with perceived threats of insurgency
from Israel's Arab minority.

In later years, the force largely dealt with quelling Palestinian riots and
enforcing Israeli closures of the West Bank and Gaza Strip which kept
Palestinians from entering Israel.

During the 1987-93 Palestinian uprising, border policemen would often wade
into riots armed with clubs, fists and handcuffs, deliberately leaving their
firearms behind.

It was a contrast with the regular army, where troops -- largely untrained in
dealing with civilians -- were prone to use guns.

Unlike the army's crack infantry units, which made stamina and intelligence
their criteria for recruits, border policemen were chosen mostly for their
brawn.

That may be behind the recent cases of brutality, human rights activists say.

On the night of Sept. 5, three border policemen stopped a car near Jerusalem
and ordered out three Palestinian supermarket employees. The three say they
did not resist.

The policemen beat them so severely they had to be hospitalized and -- in an
act that made headlines because of its sheer brazenness -- they posed for
trophy photos. Police arresting the three border policemen found the film
intact in the camera. They have been jailed pending trial.

''The fact they took photos just shows how acceptable it is,'' said Stein,
the human rights activist.

The most recent incident was on Monday, when a group of Palestinian hotel
employees winding down with a soccer game after their shifts say they were
ordered off the field by off-duty border policemen who wanted to play their
own game.

Muhammad Abu-Elhawa, a room service waiter at the luxury Laromme Hotel,
said he politely asked the policemen -- some in uniform, others not -- to wait
20 minutes.

That prompted one of the policemen to call in reinforcements -- about 30
altogether, Abu-Elhawa said. They beat the Palestinians, some using gun butts.
The police fled when one Palestinian alerted an ambulance.

Abu-Elhawa said he sustained blows when he tried to protect a friend who was
beaten senseless after reaching for a cellphone. Abu-Elhawa got X-rays
Thursday to see if the blows caused fractures.

He had no hard feelings toward Israelis -- his bosses at the hotel, shocked by
the tale, alerted the media and helped find a lawyer to make sure the assailants
are tried.

Abu-Elhawa said he and his colleagues hardly posed a threat to anyone. ''We
were in shorts and T-shirts, we meant no one any harm,'' he said.

The border police troops say the Palestinians started the fight. Police are
investigating both complaints.

One problem, Deputy Commissioner Karadi said, was that the commanders in
the field failed to reinforce respect for democratic values emphasized during
training. This week's conference of senior commanders -- a first -- was a step
in that direction.

At the conference, several border policemen complained they are sometimes
the target of unfair criticism, by the media and by Palestinians.

''They (the police) didn't understand that the other side is not the problem,''
said Amira Perlov of the tolerance-promoting Van Leer Institute. <end>

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: kage69

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

Hopefully he didn't do any of this.

Israel Border Police Confronts Own | AP-NY-09-21-00 1818EDT

by RON KAMPEAS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) -- One time, the assailants dragged three men out of a car,
severely beat them, and then posed for photos, boots triumphantly on neck.
Another time, they beat a man senseless in an argument over a soccer field.

In both cases, the attackers wore the distinctive dark green khakis of Israel's
Border Police.

The 7,200-strong force has long been renowned for its ferocity, but the recent
gang-like attacks have prompted cries for reform.

Human rights activists say the violent behavior is condoned by Border Police
commanders. ''It's a policy of closing one's eyes,'' said Yael Stein of the
Betselem human rights group.

Border Police spokesman Peretz Ratzon said cases of brutality are exceptions,
noting 47 complaints in the past nine years. But human rights activists believe
many cases go unreported.

Still, the growing criticism prompted the unit to bring 300 of its top officers
together with Palestinians and human rights experts this week in an effort to
get to the root of the problem.

''Many of them are only 18-years-old, and we ask them to enforce the law,''
said Deputy Commissioner Moshe Karadi, who is in charge of training and who
organized Wednesday's conference. ''Some of them have not achieved the
necessary maturity.''

The Border Police was established as an arm of the police soon after the
state's establishment in 1948 to deal with perceived threats of insurgency
from Israel's Arab minority.

In later years, the force largely dealt with quelling Palestinian riots and
enforcing Israeli closures of the West Bank and Gaza Strip which kept
Palestinians from entering Israel.

During the 1987-93 Palestinian uprising, border policemen would often wade
into riots armed with clubs, fists and handcuffs, deliberately leaving their
firearms behind.

It was a contrast with the regular army, where troops -- largely untrained in
dealing with civilians -- were prone to use guns.

Unlike the army's crack infantry units, which made stamina and intelligence
their criteria for recruits, border policemen were chosen mostly for their
brawn.

That may be behind the recent cases of brutality, human rights activists say.

On the night of Sept. 5, three border policemen stopped a car near Jerusalem
and ordered out three Palestinian supermarket employees. The three say they
did not resist.

The policemen beat them so severely they had to be hospitalized and -- in an
act that made headlines because of its sheer brazenness -- they posed for
trophy photos. Police arresting the three border policemen found the film
intact in the camera. They have been jailed pending trial.

''The fact they took photos just shows how acceptable it is,'' said Stein,
the human rights activist.

The most recent incident was on Monday, when a group of Palestinian hotel
employees winding down with a soccer game after their shifts say they were
ordered off the field by off-duty border policemen who wanted to play their
own game.

Muhammad Abu-Elhawa, a room service waiter at the luxury Laromme Hotel,
said he politely asked the policemen -- some in uniform, others not -- to wait
20 minutes.

That prompted one of the policemen to call in reinforcements -- about 30
altogether, Abu-Elhawa said. They beat the Palestinians, some using gun butts.
The police fled when one Palestinian alerted an ambulance.

Abu-Elhawa said he sustained blows when he tried to protect a friend who was
beaten senseless after reaching for a cellphone. Abu-Elhawa got X-rays
Thursday to see if the blows caused fractures.

He had no hard feelings toward Israelis -- his bosses at the hotel, shocked by
the tale, alerted the media and helped find a lawyer to make sure the assailants
are tried.

Abu-Elhawa said he and his colleagues hardly posed a threat to anyone. ''We
were in shorts and T-shirts, we meant no one any harm,'' he said.

The border police troops say the Palestinians started the fight. Police are
investigating both complaints.

One problem, Deputy Commissioner Karadi said, was that the commanders in
the field failed to reinforce respect for democratic values emphasized during
training. This week's conference of senior commanders -- a first -- was a step
in that direction.

At the conference, several border policemen complained they are sometimes
the target of unfair criticism, by the media and by Palestinians.

''They (the police) didn't understand that the other side is not the problem,''
said Amira Perlov of the tolerance-promoting Van Leer Institute. <end>

Look, there are rotten apples in every group. It should not reflect on the whole, no matter how much the media tries to make it look that way. I have no personal knowledge of this story, so I have no idea what really happened. All I know is how the media reported it, which I found can be very different from what actually happened.
<saracasm> Who knows, maybe it was a massacre like in Jenin </sarcasm>

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: kage69

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

I wasn't in the IDF, I was in the Mishmar (or Mishmeret) Hagvul. Border Guards. It's not a division of the IDF, although it's a very blurred line. Many operations are run jointly.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: kage69

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

You have no idea where I've been or what I've seen so save your analysis for someone who gives a damn. Congratulations on your travels.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: kage69

I SAW what is really going on there. I'm not relying on media lies and other peoples agendas.

Bravo. One thing that pisses me off to no end are all these arm-chair experts on foreign policy who haven't even ventured to Canada, let alone across the ponds. Having lived abroad for 5 years and filled 3 passports with customs stamps, I take offense to some idiot telling me how it really is in Saudi Arabia or France when he's not even old enough to drive.


Damn n00bs.

ThePresence, if it's not too personal/secretive, what did you do while enlisted in the IDF?

Hopefully he didn't do any of this.

Israel Border Police Confronts Own | AP-NY-09-21-00 1818EDT

by RON KAMPEAS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) -- One time, the assailants dragged three men out of a car,
severely beat them, and then posed for photos, boots triumphantly on neck.
Another time, they beat a man senseless in an argument over a soccer field.

In both cases, the attackers wore the distinctive dark green khakis of Israel's
Border Police.

The 7,200-strong force has long been renowned for its ferocity, but the recent
gang-like attacks have prompted cries for reform.

Human rights activists say the violent behavior is condoned by Border Police
commanders. ''It's a policy of closing one's eyes,'' said Yael Stein of the
Betselem human rights group.

Border Police spokesman Peretz Ratzon said cases of brutality are exceptions,
noting 47 complaints in the past nine years. But human rights activists believe
many cases go unreported.

Still, the growing criticism prompted the unit to bring 300 of its top officers
together with Palestinians and human rights experts this week in an effort to
get to the root of the problem.

''Many of them are only 18-years-old, and we ask them to enforce the law,''
said Deputy Commissioner Moshe Karadi, who is in charge of training and who
organized Wednesday's conference. ''Some of them have not achieved the
necessary maturity.''

The Border Police was established as an arm of the police soon after the
state's establishment in 1948 to deal with perceived threats of insurgency
from Israel's Arab minority.

In later years, the force largely dealt with quelling Palestinian riots and
enforcing Israeli closures of the West Bank and Gaza Strip which kept
Palestinians from entering Israel.

During the 1987-93 Palestinian uprising, border policemen would often wade
into riots armed with clubs, fists and handcuffs, deliberately leaving their
firearms behind.

It was a contrast with the regular army, where troops -- largely untrained in
dealing with civilians -- were prone to use guns.

Unlike the army's crack infantry units, which made stamina and intelligence
their criteria for recruits, border policemen were chosen mostly for their
brawn.

That may be behind the recent cases of brutality, human rights activists say.

On the night of Sept. 5, three border policemen stopped a car near Jerusalem
and ordered out three Palestinian supermarket employees. The three say they
did not resist.

The policemen beat them so severely they had to be hospitalized and -- in an
act that made headlines because of its sheer brazenness -- they posed for
trophy photos. Police arresting the three border policemen found the film
intact in the camera. They have been jailed pending trial.

''The fact they took photos just shows how acceptable it is,'' said Stein,
the human rights activist.

The most recent incident was on Monday, when a group of Palestinian hotel
employees winding down with a soccer game after their shifts say they were
ordered off the field by off-duty border policemen who wanted to play their
own game.

Muhammad Abu-Elhawa, a room service waiter at the luxury Laromme Hotel,
said he politely asked the policemen -- some in uniform, others not -- to wait
20 minutes.

That prompted one of the policemen to call in reinforcements -- about 30
altogether, Abu-Elhawa said. They beat the Palestinians, some using gun butts.
The police fled when one Palestinian alerted an ambulance.

Abu-Elhawa said he sustained blows when he tried to protect a friend who was
beaten senseless after reaching for a cellphone. Abu-Elhawa got X-rays
Thursday to see if the blows caused fractures.

He had no hard feelings toward Israelis -- his bosses at the hotel, shocked by
the tale, alerted the media and helped find a lawyer to make sure the assailants
are tried.

Abu-Elhawa said he and his colleagues hardly posed a threat to anyone. ''We
were in shorts and T-shirts, we meant no one any harm,'' he said.

The border police troops say the Palestinians started the fight. Police are
investigating both complaints.

One problem, Deputy Commissioner Karadi said, was that the commanders in
the field failed to reinforce respect for democratic values emphasized during
training. This week's conference of senior commanders -- a first -- was a step
in that direction.

At the conference, several border policemen complained they are sometimes
the target of unfair criticism, by the media and by Palestinians.

''They (the police) didn't understand that the other side is not the problem,''
said Amira Perlov of the tolerance-promoting Van Leer Institute. <end>

Look, there are rotten apples in every group. It should not reflect on the whole, no matter how much the media tries to make it look that way. I have no personal knowledge of this story, so I have no idea what really happened. All I know is how the media reported it, which I found can be very different from what actually happened.
<saracasm> Who knows, maybe it was a massacre like in Jenin </sarcasm>

Fair enough, it was not fair of me to question you without knowing the circumstances. But still, what do you think of Israel building the fence miles into Pal territory? Or do you just beleive there is no Palestinian territory? You said that Israel won the land fair and square, but as someone else pointed out, we beat the Germans fair and square and as far as I know, Germany is not a US state. You say that there are only a few rotten apples in the IDF who brutalize Pals, and you say you don't trust the media, but what about all the organizations that monitor human rights violations in the Occupied Territories? What do you think about B'Tselem, an Israeli monitoring group? Are you going to say that they are just biased? I cannot beleive that people can blindly support Israel the way they do as if though they are beyond doing anything wrong. I for one am sick of throwing money away and having America perceived as some country's biatch, especially one that has done NOTHING for us except draw people's animosity.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: ThePresence
What alot of people fail to realize is that all this land was land won in wars. Israel decided to return part of it (which is something no other country would ever consider doing), as a peace gesture. Then they get slammed for giving away too little. Now, when they try to build a wall to defend themselves, again, they are "stealing" land. It's insanity, they can never win. Whatever they do is not good enough. Not utill they give away the entire country. Even then, I'm sure people would still think it's not enough.

would you be ok with maybe leaving a 100x100km square for the palestinians and leave the rest for your family?

If they attacked me, and I won it in a war, yes, I'd have no problem. It seems like you missed the point. No other country would ever give back land won in a war.

Well of course there is the explanation on how to get it back.

 

[Czar]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/326734.html

The United Nations Development Fund has proposed an
emergency fund of $18 million to help Palestinians
whose livelihoods are affected by the separation
fence Israel is building around the West Bank.

The United Nations said the fence's impact on
agriculture is of particular concern in
Palestinian-inhabited regions of Jenin, Tul
Karm and Qalqilyah. Those three regions produce
45 percent of the West Bank's total
agricultural output worth 220 million dollars
in 2000.

The United Nations said construction of the
fence has so far destroyed 83,000 olive and
other fruit trees, hundreds of square
kilometers of irrigated lands, 37 kilometers of
water networks and 15 kilometers of
agricultural roads.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Czar
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/326734.html

The United Nations Development Fund has proposed an
emergency fund of $18 million to help Palestinians
whose livelihoods are affected by the separation
fence Israel is building around the West Bank.

The United Nations said the fence's impact on
agriculture is of particular concern in
Palestinian-inhabited regions of Jenin, Tul
Karm and Qalqilyah. Those three regions produce
45 percent of the West Bank's total
agricultural output worth 220 million dollars
in 2000.

The United Nations said construction of the
fence has so far destroyed 83,000 olive and
other fruit trees, hundreds of square
kilometers of irrigated lands, 37 kilometers of
water networks and 15 kilometers of
agricultural roads.

This is really, really sickening. Can you imagine the outrage if a Muslim pulled a stunt like this? But, you know, we have to support our fellow democracies, it's the American way.

. Another thing, why should the United Nations have to pay for the damages caused by Israels construction of the world's largest concentration camp? The way I see it, Israel should pay reparations, which would be the same thing as America paying them considering we are probably paying for the wall anyway. Sickening.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Czar
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/326734.html

The United Nations Development Fund has proposed an
emergency fund of $18 million to help Palestinians
whose livelihoods are affected by the separation
fence Israel is building around the West Bank.

The United Nations said the fence's impact on
agriculture is of particular concern in
Palestinian-inhabited regions of Jenin, Tul
Karm and Qalqilyah. Those three regions produce
45 percent of the West Bank's total
agricultural output worth 220 million dollars
in 2000.

The United Nations said construction of the
fence has so far destroyed 83,000 olive and
other fruit trees, hundreds of square
kilometers of irrigated lands, 37 kilometers of
water networks and 15 kilometers of
agricultural roads.

This is really, really sickening. Can you imagine the outrage if a Muslim pulled a stunt like this? But, you know, we have to support our fellow democracies, it's the American way.

. Another thing, why should the United Nations have to pay for the damages caused by Israels construction of the world's largest concentration camp? The way I see it, Israel should pay reparations, which would be the same thing as America paying them considering we are probably paying for the wall anyway. Sickening.

And that is the heart of the problem. We have to stop funding these extremists.

 

[kage69]

You have no idea where I've been or what I've seen so save your analysis for someone who gives a damn. Congratulations on your travels.

Whoa whoa back up there dude. It seems you were under the impression I was refering to you - I wasn't. I never claimed to know you or refered to you in any light so calm the fvck down. In fact, in my short time here I think I can only remember one occasion where I responded to something you said, and that was in a different thread. I'm sorry you feel that insecure, but just because I agree with someone you don't, doesn't mean I'm attacking you.

:|

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: kage69

You have no idea where I've been or what I've seen so save your analysis for someone who gives a damn. Congratulations on your travels.

Whoa whoa back up there dude. It seems you were under the impression I was refering to you - I wasn't. I never claimed to know you or refered to you in any light so calm the fvck down. In fact, in my short time here I think I can only remember one occasion where I responded to something you said, and that was in a different thread. I'm sorry you feel that insecure, but just because I agree with someone you don't, doesn't mean I'm attacking you.

:|

Sure sounded that way, maybe you should have specified.

 

[kage69]

Sure sounded that way, maybe you should have specified.

Uh, no, you shouldn't be that damn jumpy. I would have thought me quoting someone else and not you would have been all the specification you need. The only way I can see you taking legitimate offense to that is if you somehow don't have a driver's license. Whatever, I'm not gonna make a big deal about it, I just don't want you to think I was attacking something you said to ThePresence.


/me hands LBBI a cold :beer:

 

[Czar]

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/030806/ramirez.gif

 

[kage69]

Heh, good one.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Look, there are rotten apples in every group. It should not reflect on the whole, no matter how much the media tries to make it look that way. I have no personal knowledge of this story, so I have no idea what really happened. All I know is how the media reported it, which I found can be very different from what actually happened.
<saracasm> Who knows, maybe it was a massacre like in Jenin </sarcasm>

Fair enough, it was not fair of me to question you without knowing the circumstances. But still, what do you think of Israel building the fence miles into Pal territory? Or do you just beleive there is no Palestinian territory? You said that Israel won the land fair and square, but as someone else pointed out, we beat the Germans fair and square and as far as I know, Germany is not a US state.

Yes, that's right. I believe Palestinian territory is whatever land Israel decides to give them. They never owned the land beforehand, Britain did, Turkey did and so on. Israel keeps the land that it won in a war, because it feels these lands are necessary for it's defense. Attacks were launched from these areas, and Israel is not going to sit back and let that happen. They gave back the Sinai right after the war, hell they were almost at the Suez Canal, but they did not feel that it was necessary to keep these lands for it's defense. The US did not need Germany after WWII for it's defense (but they always kept a military presence there). The US had no problem withdrawing back to it's own borders ACROSS THE OCEAN. Israel doesn't have that option. They did not win lands a half a world away, they won the lands right by their own borders. To give back that land is ridiculous, because they are threatened from there. This land was necessary for it's defense, so they kept it.

You say that there are only a few rotten apples in the IDF who brutalize Pals, and you say you don't trust the media, but what about all the organizations that monitor human rights violations in the Occupied Territories? What do you think about B'Tselem, an Israeli monitoring group?

Yes, there are a few rotten apples, but these are the ones you hear about. The media just loves these animals, because it makes for sensationlist reporting. What about the Palestinians brutalizing people throught their attacks? Innocent people? Kids on the bus to school? Nobody wants to hear about that anymore, it's old news. But to the families that are experiencing it, it isn't. B'Tselem is made of people more Left-Wing than Hillary. I don't respect a word they say.

Are you going to say that they are just biased?

Yes. Let them start monitoring Palestinian human rights violations to their own people. Let them start monitoring human rights violations on the bombed buses. Let them go to the hospitals and see kids dying from Palestinian bombings and shootings. Untill that happens, yes, they are biased.

I cannot beleive that people can blindly support Israel the way they do as if though they are beyond doing anything wrong. I for one am sick of throwing money away and having America perceived as some country's biatch, especially one that has done NOTHING for us except draw people's animosity.

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Look, there are rotten apples in every group. It should not reflect on the whole, no matter how much the media tries to make it look that way. I have no personal knowledge of this story, so I have no idea what really happened. All I know is how the media reported it, which I found can be very different from what actually happened.
<saracasm> Who knows, maybe it was a massacre like in Jenin </sarcasm>

Fair enough, it was not fair of me to question you without knowing the circumstances. But still, what do you think of Israel building the fence miles into Pal territory? Or do you just beleive there is no Palestinian territory? You said that Israel won the land fair and square, but as someone else pointed out, we beat the Germans fair and square and as far as I know, Germany is not a US state.

Yes, that's right. I believe Palestinian territory is whatever land Israel decides to give them. They never owned the land beforehand, Britain did, Turkey did and so on. Israel keeps the land that it won in a war, because it feels these lands are necessary for it's defense. Attacks were launched from these areas, and Israel is not going to sit back and let that happen. They gave back the Sinai right after the war, hell they were almost at the Suez Canal, but they did not feel that it was necessary to keep these lands for it's defense. The US did not need Germany after WWII for it's defense (but they always kept a military presence there). The US had no problem withdrawing back to it's own borders ACROSS THE OCEAN. Israel doesn't have that option. They did not win lands a half a world away, they won the lands right by their own borders. To give back that land is ridiculous, because they are threatened from there. This land was necessary for it's defense, so they kept it.

You say that there are only a few rotten apples in the IDF who brutalize Pals, and you say you don't trust the media, but what about all the organizations that monitor human rights violations in the Occupied Territories? What do you think about B'Tselem, an Israeli monitoring group?

Yes, there are a few rotten apples, but these are the ones you hear about. The media just loves these animals, because it makes for sensationlist reporting. What about the Palestinians brutalizing people throught their attacks? Innocent people? Kids on the bus to school? Nobody wants to hear about that anymore, it's old news. But to the families that are experiencing it, it isn't. B'Tselem is made of people more Left-Wing than Hillary. I don't respect a word they say.

Are you going to say that they are just biased?

Yes. Let them start monitoring Palestinian human rights violations to their own people. Let them start monitoring human rights violations on the bombed buses. Let them go to the hospitals and see kids dying from Palestinian bombings and shootings. Untill that happens, yes, they are biased.

I cannot beleive that people can blindly support Israel the way they do as if though they are beyond doing anything wrong. I for one am sick of throwing money away and having America perceived as some country's biatch, especially one that has done NOTHING for us except draw people's animosity.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Whatever man, all you're saying is that because others may act like complete animals, Israel has the right to be as low or even lower than they are. Great arguement. But you're from there (or were at some point), so its expected. The same way you don't see all Americans blindly supporting the US, its comforting to know that there are Israelis there who are willing to sit back and realize what's wrong with their country and try to do something about it, to bad you're not one of them.

NO TO WELFARE STATES!

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Look, there are rotten apples in every group. It should not reflect on the whole, no matter how much the media tries to make it look that way. I have no personal knowledge of this story, so I have no idea what really happened. All I know is how the media reported it, which I found can be very different from what actually happened.
<saracasm> Who knows, maybe it was a massacre like in Jenin </sarcasm>

Fair enough, it was not fair of me to question you without knowing the circumstances. But still, what do you think of Israel building the fence miles into Pal territory? Or do you just beleive there is no Palestinian territory? You said that Israel won the land fair and square, but as someone else pointed out, we beat the Germans fair and square and as far as I know, Germany is not a US state.

Yes, that's right. I believe Palestinian territory is whatever land Israel decides to give them. They never owned the land beforehand, Britain did, Turkey did and so on. Israel keeps the land that it won in a war, because it feels these lands are necessary for it's defense. Attacks were launched from these areas, and Israel is not going to sit back and let that happen. They gave back the Sinai right after the war, hell they were almost at the Suez Canal, but they did not feel that it was necessary to keep these lands for it's defense. The US did not need Germany after WWII for it's defense (but they always kept a military presence there). The US had no problem withdrawing back to it's own borders ACROSS THE OCEAN. Israel doesn't have that option. They did not win lands a half a world away, they won the lands right by their own borders. To give back that land is ridiculous, because they are threatened from there. This land was necessary for it's defense, so they kept it.

You say that there are only a few rotten apples in the IDF who brutalize Pals, and you say you don't trust the media, but what about all the organizations that monitor human rights violations in the Occupied Territories? What do you think about B'Tselem, an Israeli monitoring group?

Yes, there are a few rotten apples, but these are the ones you hear about. The media just loves these animals, because it makes for sensationlist reporting. What about the Palestinians brutalizing people throught their attacks? Innocent people? Kids on the bus to school? Nobody wants to hear about that anymore, it's old news. But to the families that are experiencing it, it isn't. B'Tselem is made of people more Left-Wing than Hillary. I don't respect a word they say.

Are you going to say that they are just biased?

Yes. Let them start monitoring Palestinian human rights violations to their own people. Let them start monitoring human rights violations on the bombed buses. Let them go to the hospitals and see kids dying from Palestinian bombings and shootings. Untill that happens, yes, they are biased.

I cannot beleive that people can blindly support Israel the way they do as if though they are beyond doing anything wrong. I for one am sick of throwing money away and having America perceived as some country's biatch, especially one that has done NOTHING for us except draw people's animosity.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Whatever man, all you're saying is that because others may act like complete animals, Israel has the right to be as low or even lower than they are. Great arguement. But you're from there (or were at some point), so its expected. The same way you don't see all Americans blindly supporting the US, its comforting to know that there are Israelis there who are willing to sit back and realize what's wrong with their country and try to do something about it, to bad you're not one of them.

NO TO WELFARE STATES!

I never said or insinuated anything of the kind, I dont know where you get that from. What I said was, that I think those groups are biased for only being concerned when Israel does something. Whatever, we will never agree on any parts of this issue. But I appreciate being able to have a civil discussion about it instead of the shouting matches that I've been a part of and/or read through in the past in OT.