The Wall Street Journal: Gun owners are setting themselves up for gun control.

[monovillage]

There's a lot of middle ground between forcing people to install Fort Knox in their houses, and people leaving loaded guns in bedroom side table drawers.

Yes, the people that have a loaded gun in a bedside table may actually be able to get to it in order to defend themselves and their families.

 

[Tom]

Don't forget that firearms are already the most legislated and controlled consumer good, arguably, and there are no studies showing any control of them even reduces gun violence. The gun control side keeps throwing on more laws that have no effect but that to frustrate responsible owners.

Consumer goods with extreme lethality. Cars. Drugs. Guns. Of those three cars and drugs are regulated to a much higher degree than firearms.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Yes, the people that have a loaded gun in a bedside table may actually be able to get to it in order to defend themselves and their families.

Assuming their families don't use it to kill themselves first.

 

[monovillage]

Assuming their families don't use it to kill themselves first.

The NRA has been teaching safe gun handling for over a century, they also try to get gun safety programs into schools. If the left spent 1/10th of the effort on training and education as they do on these failed authoritarian attempts at gun control they'd save far more lives.

http://programs.nra.org/

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Gun safety training doesn't prevent all accidents nor does it guarantee that the gun will be used properly.

I would suspect the odds are quite high that the Connecticut shooter was given gun safety training by his mother and/or the gun range they frequented? Yet that being the case it didn't stop him from shooting up a elementary school.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Consumer goods with extreme lethality. Cars. Drugs. Guns. Of those three cars and drugs are regulated to a much higher degree than firearms.

car manufacture is heavily regulated.

car "training" is a joke.

 

[irishScott]

So public perception is more important to you than your own values?

Saying "its just politics" emboldens the reason why we should not budge IMO. How many times do we bend over to placate some politicians agenda under the guise of security? Don't you think at some point a stand must be made?

For me to give up what I feel is right only to be perceived by the public as an upstanding citizen then I have given up the ability to be a true american patriot. Obviously this is only my opinion and I realize some have no issue with it.

Public perception is more important when it comes to accomplishing anything meaningful, and accomplishing something meaningful is worth a ~5% compromise of my morality. Welcome to Democracy (or Constitutional Republic-ism, if you prefer).

Public perception wins elections. In fact, public perception generated the momentum the gun grabbers currently enjoy. You're saying we should sit back, circle-jerk over pro-gun rhetoric and just let them have that resource? That paying a near-meaningless price now isn't worth the tremendous payoff we'd get in the public at large? The gun lobby could propose any number of small measures that ultimately mean little but would work wonders with public perception. God Knows the Assault Weapons Bans and Magazine limits do exactly that, and guess what? They're passing at the state levels and they aren't being repealed; with a threat of similar measures at the federal level.

Your idealistic notions are, frankly, naive. The founding fathers themselves played politics extensively to make this country what it is. True patriotism is getting things done for the good of everyone. Not giving an inch only serves to reinforce some self-image you've conjured up, and preserving 95% of our gun rights is more important than your self image.

If you can design some revolutionary new system where the government is based on moral integrity and not politics, I'm all ears; but I'm pretty sure you'd have to change human nature first.

 

[monovillage]

Gun safety training doesn't prevent all accidents nor does it guarantee that the gun will be used properly.

I would suspect the odds are quite high that the Connecticut shooter was given gun safety training by his mother and/or the gun range they frequented? Yet that being the case it didn't stop him from shooting up a elementary school.

I bet his mom had those guns in a safe or with a gunlock, that didn't do any fucking good either.

 

[monovillage]

Public perception is more important when it comes to accomplishing anything meaningful, and accomplishing something meaningful is worth a ~5% compromise of my morality. Welcome to Democracy (or Constitutional Republic-ism, if you prefer).

Public perception wins elections. In fact, public perception generated the momentum the gun grabbers currently enjoy. You're saying we should sit back, circle-jerk over pro-gun rhetoric and just let them have that resource? That paying a near-meaningless price now isn't worth the tremendous payoff we'd get in the public at large? The gun lobby could propose any number of small measures that ultimately mean little but would work wonders with public perception. God Knows the Assault Weapons Bans and Magazine limits do exactly that, and guess what? They're passing at the state levels and they aren't being repealed; with a threat of similar measures at the federal level.

Your idealistic notions are, frankly, naive. The founding fathers themselves played politics extensively to make this country what it is.

If you can design some revolutionary new system where the government is based on moral integrity and not politics, I'm all ears; but I'm pretty sure you'd have to change human nature first.

It will never stop. It will never end until all citizens except the rich, the privileged and the politically connected are disarmed. You're just throwing one more person in the sled to the wolves hoping that it will end the tyranny of the leftist gun grabbers. No amount of appeasement will ever satisfy them, it will be just one more "reasonable, common sense, fair" step.

 

[irishScott]

It will never stop. It will never end until all citizens except the rich, the privileged and the politically connected are disarmed. You're just throwing one more person in the sled to the wolves hoping that it will end the tyranny of the leftist gun grabbers. No amount of appeasement will ever satisfy them, it will be just one more "reasonable, common sense, fair" step.

I'm not looking to appease the leftist gun grabbers, I'm looking to appease those in the center who don't own guns, typically don't give much of a shit, but still vote based on their perceptions. Right now that center in many cases leans to the left, and most of the gun community is pushing many of them further in that direction.

If this were a military operation, the NRA and gun community would be demanding that we don't attack unless we're certain we wouldn't take one casualty in doing so. With that mentality in place, we're frozen. Meanwhile the enemy is gaining ground and slowly encircling us, having already blown some holes in the perimeter.

Much of the pro-gun crowd has all the strategic sense of a suicide bomber, and almost as much zeal.

 

[monovillage]

I'm not looking to appease the leftist gun grabbers, I'm looking to appease those in the center who don't own guns, typically don't give much of a shit, but still vote based on their perceptions. Right now that center in many cases leans to the left, and most of the gun community is pushing many of them further in that direction.

If this were a military operation, the NRA and gun community would be demanding that we don't attack unless we're certain we wouldn't take one casualty in doing so. With that mentality in place, we're frozen. Meanwhile the enemy is gaining ground and slowly encircling us, having already blown some holes in the perimeter.

Much of the pro-gun crowd has all the strategic sense of a suicide bomber, and almost as much zeal.

I live in California, I know where this is going. Good luck with the "peace in our time" mentality.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Your idealistic notions are, frankly, naive. The founding fathers themselves played politics extensively to make this country what it is. True patriotism is getting things done for the good of everyone. Not giving an inch only serves to reinforce some self-image you've conjured up, and preserving 95% of our gun rights is more important than your self image.

If you can design some revolutionary new system where the government is based on moral integrity and not politics, I'm all ears; but I'm pretty sure you'd have to change human nature first.

This same logic was used after 9/11 for the "good of all" with the Patriot Act. Was that being a patriot? Passing a bill no one had time to read? That is your patriotism? I'm sorry if you so easily lay down your beliefs for a little safety. It is this mentality that has eroded the Rights of citizens.

Your argument is basically to be politically correct. Public outcry and you change your tune. Thats right we're a Republic for a reason and it wasn't to pander to public opinion. You simply cannot be a patriot, or a "true patriot" as you put it, if mob rule determines your own values. What kind of a man is one who's opinions and values are swayed by public opinion? Is he his own?

Sorry, I'll never be politically correct when it comes to my beliefs. Some might call that integrity. But you go on out there and win your elections, pander to mob rule for the "good of everyone". I'll keep my self respect and continue being a patriot. Oh and by the way, being a "true patriot" is not going along with everyone else. Just thought I should point that out.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I bet his mom had those guns in a safe or with a gunlock, that didn't do any fucking good either.

proof?

 

[irishScott]

This same logic was used after 9/11 for the "good of all" with the Patriot Act. Was that being a patriot? Passing a bill no one had time to read? That is your patriotism? I'm sorry if you so easily lay down your beliefs for a little safety. It is this mentality that has eroded the Rights of citizens.

Your argument is basically to be politically correct. Public outcry and you change your tune. Thats right we're a Republic for a reason and it wasn't to pander to public opinion. You simply cannot be a patriot, or a "true patriot" as you put it, if mob rule determines your own values. What kind of a man is one who's opinions and values are swayed by public opinion? Is he his own?

Sorry, I'll never be politically correct when it comes to my beliefs. Some might call that integrity. But you go on out there and win your elections, pander to mob rule for the "good of everyone". I'll keep my self respect and continue being a patriot. Oh and by the way, being a "true patriot" is not going along with everyone else. Just thought I should point that out.

We can debate the Patriot act and other irrelevant issues some other time, suffice it to say I've always opposed most of it.

I lay down no beliefs for safety, I lay down some of my beliefs to preserve freedom. I have my thresholds that I won't go past, I'm just less brittle than you.

So you'd argue that the definition of patriotism doesn't include acting in the interest of the citizens of the United States? That it's more patriotic to lose 80% of one's freedom in 10 years than to preserve 90% for future generations?

My personal opinions and values aren't swayed by public opinion, but public opinion is the hand we're dealt in terms of governance. As good citizens it's our job to make it work for us, whether it's ideal material or not. If you want to stand on the sidelines, make no difference, and whine about it, that's your prerogative. Most people do that in some fashion or other. Bottom line is you "true patriots" get precious little done for all your vaunted patriotism.

News flash: Outside of your head, your personal values and morals mean jack shit unless you can convince others to go along with you.

Your "true patriotism" certainly hasn't convinced anyone here. When you're ready to stop whining about how pure and virtuous you are and actually start trying to fix the problem, let me know.

 

[NoStateofMind]

We can debate the Patriot act and other irrelevant issues some other time, suffice it to say I've always opposed most of it.

Its quite relevant. Just as then public outcry was then that something needed to be done as now public outcry is now that something must be done. How is it right this time instead of then? You see this is where your bleeding heart liberal BS comes out. You think by pandering to those who don't own guns will make you look better in the public forum. How do I know you aren't pandering your beliefs right now for accolades from this forums liberals? We don't know and given your responses so far wouldn't surprise me.

I lay down no beliefs for safety, I lay down some of my beliefs to preserve freedom. I have my thresholds that I won't go past, I'm just less brittle than you.

Well thats bullshit. Being "brittle" would mean you give in on your beliefs for public opinion to win elections. Thats your values and sad if I may say so myself. What happened to having a spine? You don't have one from what I can tell. When do you announce your candidacy?

So you'd argue that the definition of patriotism doesn't include acting in the interest of the citizens of the United States? That it's more patriotic to lose 80% of one's freedom in 10 years than to preserve 90% for future generations?

the 2nd amendment is in the interest of the people. Without it a patriot could not stand. Ask those "true patriots" who fought for it.

My personal opinions and values aren't swayed by public opinion, but public opinion is the hand we're dealt in terms of governance. As good citizens it's our job to make it work for us, whether it's ideal material or not. If you want to stand on the sidelines, make no difference, and whine about it, that's your prerogative. Most people do that in some fashion or other. Bottom line is you "true patriots" get precious little done for all your vaunted patriotism.

On the sidelines not making a difference? Are you mad man? hows the gun control working there sparky?

News flash: Outside of your head, your personal values and morals mean jack shit unless you can convince others to go along with you.

Guess what? I'm not running for political office (as it seems you are). There are plenty like me who will not give an inch based on emotional drivel or public outcry because just like with the Patriot Act, public opinion is wrong.

Your "true patriotism" certainly hasn't convinced anyone here. When you're ready to stop whining about how pure and virtuous you are and actually start trying to fix the problem, let me know.

Your public opinion pandering, running for office mindset and politically correct thought patterns are the crux of the problem. The driving factor in the erosion of citizens Rights. But I'm sure your "true patriotism" is for the good of everyone just like they thought with the Patriot Act right?

 

[monovillage]

proof?

proof against? It's required by law. Ohhh that's right, her son murdered her and stole her guns, keys and everything else.

 

[NoStateofMind]

proof against? It's required by law. Ohhh that's right, her son murdered her and stole her guns, keys and everything else.

But but one more law could have saved them!

 

[michal1980]

We can debate the Patriot act and other irrelevant issues some other time, suffice it to say I've always opposed most of it.

I lay down no beliefs for safety, I lay down some of my beliefs to preserve freedom. I have my thresholds that I won't go past, I'm just less brittle than you.

So you'd argue that the definition of patriotism doesn't include acting in the interest of the citizens of the United States? That it's more patriotic to lose 80% of one's freedom in 10 years than to preserve 90% for future generations?

My personal opinions and values aren't swayed by public opinion, but public opinion is the hand we're dealt in terms of governance. As good citizens it's our job to make it work for us, whether it's ideal material or not. If you want to stand on the sidelines, make no difference, and whine about it, that's your prerogative. Most people do that in some fashion or other. Bottom line is you "true patriots" get precious little done for all your vaunted patriotism.

News flash: Outside of your head, your personal values and morals mean jack shit unless you can convince others to go along with you.

Your "true patriotism" certainly hasn't convinced anyone here. When you're ready to stop whining about how pure and virtuous you are and actually start trying to fix the problem, let me know.

how far are you will to take you logical stupidity?

If we ban assault rifles now.

And something bad happens with hand guns tomorrow.

Do we then ban hand guns because the same people are crying?

And when we ban hand guns tomorrow, and then something bad happens with rifles.

Do we ban rifle because the same people crying about assault rifles now, will be crying again?

If we limit clip capacity to 7 rounds, and something bad happens later, do we appease the same cry babies today, with 5 round clips? 2 round clips? only single round capacity guns?

Where do you draw the line, and say, fuck you anti gun nutter pussies?

 

[OverVolt]

The only thing I've seen in real life that had an issue and wanted more gun control was the television. So there ya go.

I haven't met a single person who of their own thought wanted gun control and cared enough to tell me about it.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

If the left spent 1/10th of the effort on training and education as they do on these failed authoritarian attempts at gun control they'd save far more lives.

And if the right-wing all-gun-rights-at-all-costs moonbats spent 1/10th of the effort on actually cleaning up their own act that they do whining about the left, they wouldn't need to deal with nearly as many "failed authoritarian attempts at gun control".

Community education would be nice, yes. But if you buy a gun it is your responsibility to educate your kids and secure it properly. Not "the left"'s.

 

[monovillage]

And if the right-wing all-gun-rights-at-all-costs moonbats spent 1/10th of the effort on actually cleaning up their own act that they do whining about the left, they wouldn't need to deal with nearly as many "failed authoritarian attempts at gun control".

Community education would be nice, yes. But if you buy a gun it is your responsibility to educate your kids and secure it properly. Not "the left"'s.

Face it, you and your allies don't give a shit about the safety of kids or you'd be doing more to help the NRA make them safer. Spew that faux outrage crap on someone else that actually thinks you're being honest.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Face it, you and your allies don't give a shit about the safety of kids or you'd be doing more to help the NRA make them safer.

Face it, the NRA and the right-wing-nut gun extremists don't give a shit about gun safety, or we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Why the hell would I want to give assistance to an organization so out on the fringe that it doesn't even represent the positions of most gun owners? The NRA may have been formed as an organization dedicated to gun safety and training, but it has been transformed into an extremist lobbying mouthpiece for the gun industry.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Why should I expect or for that matter want the NRA to teach my children and my grand children gun safety? I can do as good if not a better job myself using the actual guns instead of a film or brochure. My father taught me to respect guns and to properly clean/ secure them when they're not being used.

As for the second amendment I have let my representatives know my feeling on how it must be protected.

 

[OverVolt]

Face it, the NRA and the right-wing-nut gun extremists don't give a shit about gun safety, or we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Why the hell would I want to give assistance to an organization so out on the fringe that it doesn't even represent the positions of most gun owners? The NRA may have been formed as an organization dedicated to gun safety and training, but it has been transformed into an extremist lobbying mouthpiece for the gun industry.

So the liberals label everything they don't agree with as extremism now? Haha, the NRA is shooting for 5 million members. The liberals are of course the NRA's salesman of the year since it was just 4 million in 2012.

Everyone is keen to the liberals ways. They - just - never - stop. Liberals are the epitome of the slippery slope. Thats why everyone arguing with liberals has been getting so uncompromising. Someones has got to draw a line in the sand and the spineless liberals sure aren't going to do it :awe:

They'll try to compromise on an issue the other side doesn't even want any action taken on. AKA the liberals get to make a new law. Once all that is over with, the liberals still aren't happy and want to "compromise" again. And again. And again. Until we have muskets. And when the crime rate is still high, it'll be because of some other reason and the liberals won't own up to being wrong. Liberals are never wrong. Its the best party to be in.

You can't be wrong if you are doing what everyone else is doing (never mind the actual real world consequences of the law, like it not working, having a history of not working, and the new one not going to work, but nevermind that - everyone is agrees!). Its just that there aren't enough laws to stop the criminals whom break the law Duh! Because everyone knows if you are going to murder someone the last thing you want to do is break even more laws.

Liberals take failure as an excuse to double down on said failure. So say the 16 oz soda ban doesn't work and it doesn't affect the obesity rate (which it won't). Liberal logic dictates that since the first ban didn't work an even more severe ban is necessary, say 12 oz sodas. Liberals call it compromise but the rest of the world just calls it insanity since you are just doing the same thing and getting the same result (failure).

 

[michal1980]

Face it, the NRA and the right-wing-nut gun extremists don't give a shit about gun safety, or we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Why the hell would I want to give assistance to an organization so out on the fringe that it doesn't even represent the positions of most gun owners? The NRA may have been formed as an organization dedicated to gun safety and training, but it has been transformed into an extremist lobbying mouthpiece for the gun industry.

the nra has millions of members. even more that support it.

But that's just SOP for a liberal. Label your opponent so that you can just dismiss their ideas.

The extremist are the gun pussies on the left, like you, that think passing laws like 7 round clips will fix something.

And why pass them? well because it feels good. Stupid Stupid Stupid.