News The Verdict

[brianmanahan]

Everything can be interpreted as P&N if that is the only thing you can see. Your reply is just as P&N as the topic at hand.

"if all you have is a politics, everything looks like a news"

- abraham maslow, probably

 

[Torn Mind]

Add on top of that the fact that lot of what cops do, and the "due process" are very bad in of themselves. For example the whole idea that it's actually considered ok for a cop to use violence just because the victim is "resisting". Resisting to them is basically just having tense muscles or asking too many questions like why you are being arrested. Lot of cases of people who do not know why they are being arrested and just want to know why. This is considered resisting. When you are scared or being manhandled it's normal to have a bit of tense muscles. They'll then start yelling at you to stop resisting even though you're not purposely doing anything wrong and eventually this leads them to shoot you. If they can prove that you were "resisting" then they run scot free even if you were unarmed because they still followed process. These processes need to change.

When they are being filmed they are also trained to keep yelling to stop resisting as lot of people who later on watch the video just assume that the person was actually resisting when really they were not. The recent case in Barrie with the skateboarder is a good example of this. The kid was like 140lbs, even if he had been resisting there is zero reason the 250lb cop could not cuff him. Of course, going through a red light should not even warrant an arrest to begin with. That whole incident was wrong on so many levels.

It's another logical exploit. They know that the investigation may vindicate victimize the person in the end but they can utilize the less stringent logical demands of probable cause to inflict punishment in time, money, and/or bodily harm.


Another factor they look at is indicators of your resources...or lack thereof. A young 20-year old will not have much money to hire a private attorney and might be working a basic job.

One thing cops are not are dummies. They process info quickly and efficiently. That is why I find Brandon Tatum a particularly revolting talking head. He tries to make it sound Chauvin was just dumb.

 

[Red Squirrel]

any cop who does not report a bad cop or stop a bad cop from acting out is also a bad cop......

I kind of feel bad for the good cops, they're between a rock and a hard place, especially rookies that may not fully know the ropes yet. They will feel threatened to report anything as their life or even their loved ones can literally be at risk. But yeah they need to do what they can to report coworkers doing bad stuff and not let themselves be assimilated. I wonder what the stats are for PDs that use body cams and if they decrease corruption, or if they don't help. If the entire department as a whole is corrupt I imagine the bodycams do nothing since even the people that should be disciplining them are going to back them up and "the body cam was malfunctioning that day" and there is magically no footage.

There really needs to be better oversight in general when it comes to policing and the entire system needs a full revamp really. Violence needs to be the absolute last resort instead of the first one. Just the other day a teenager was killed by a cop in her own driveway... this stuff is just getting so out of hand and something needs to happen to make this stop.

 

[Torn Mind]

I kind of feel bad for the good cops, they're between a rock and a hard place, especially rookies that may not fully know the ropes yet. They will feel threatened to report anything as their life or even their loved ones can literally be at risk. But yeah they need to do what they can to report coworkers doing bad stuff and not let themselves be assimilated. I wonder what the stats are for PDs that use body cams and if they decrease corruption, or if they don't help. If the entire department as a whole is corrupt I imagine the bodycams do nothing since even the people that should be disciplining them are going to back them up and "the body cam was malfunctioning that day" and there is magically no footage.

There really needs to be better oversight in general when it comes to policing and the entire system needs a full revamp really. Violence needs to be the absolute last resort instead of the first one. Just the other day a teenager was killed by a cop in her own driveway... this stuff is just getting so out of hand and something needs to happen to make this stop.

The Columbus one is something not clear-cut avoidable.

The teenage female had a knife and it sure looked like she was going to impale the other girl/woman in the orange clothing.

The cop could have sat back and let her initiate the plunge motion, but then someone else might be dead or in the hospital.

 

[brianmanahan]

i think once robot tech gets good enough (20 years or so), most cops get replaced with robots that just stun or tackle everyone with no need to shoot

 

[deadlyapp]

The Columbus one is something not clear-cut avoidable.

The teenage female had a knife and it sure looked like she was going to impale the other girl/woman in the orange clothing.

The cop could have sat back and let her initiate the plunge motion, but then someone else might be dead or in the hospital.

And many are going to say well he should have gone to a less lethal option, eg a taser - but what happens if he tases her and she still initiates and kills the other girl? I say the columbus one is a justified shoot, even if it is tragic that someone young has lost their life.

 

[Kaido]

any cop who does not report a bad cop or stop a bad cop from acting out is also a bad cop......

A lot of it is an issue with how the incentives in any organization are truly structured (the whole "what the handbook says we do" vs. "what we actually do"). For example, does HR exist to protect the employees, or to protect the company? Police officers & HQ's are in similar situations. There were some politics involved in this situation from a decade ago:

Miami police chief disciplines officer for pulling over FHP trooper

The traffic stop — the trooper was not ticketed or arrested — was one of the latest actions in a back-and-forth feud

www.police1.com

What started out as an example of abuse of power (reckless driving as an officer):

Florida Highway Patrol trooper Donna Jane Watts drew her gun, handcuffed, then charged Miami Officer Fausto Lopez with reckless driving on Florida's Turnpike in Broward.

Which is no small issue, as the Sun Sentinel did some research with a focus on off-duty speeding:

Cops among Florida’s worst speeders, Sun Sentinel investigation finds

We’ve all seen it, and now there’s proof: Police officers sworn to uphold our traffic laws are among the worst speeders on South Florida roads. A three-month Sun Sentinel investigation …

www.sun-sentinel.com

A three-month Sun Sentinel investigation found almost 800 cops from a dozen agencies driving 90 to 130 mph on our highways.

Which isn't without serious consequences, but lacks accountability:

Speeding cops can kill. Since 2004, Florida officers exceeding the speed limit have caused at least 320 crashes and 19 deaths. Only one officer went to jail — for 60 days.

Woman Pulls Over Cop for Speeding, Gets Apology

If a police car speeds by, most people would not bat an eye. But one woman decided to uphold the law to chase down and pull over an officer who was speeding.

abcnews.go.com

Which turned into a harassments situation for the trooper who pulled that officer over, also with no real accountability:

Watts’ lawsuit alleged 88 law enforcement officers from 25 jurisdictions illegally accessed her personal information more than 200 times.

...

After the traffic stop, Watts said she became afraid of the police: She received online threats, hang-ups on her home phone and cellphone, according to her lawsuit. Police followed her for no reason, and pranksters sent pizza to her house, the lawsuit said. Cars stopped and lingered on her cul-de-sac, she said in her suit.

...

...the police department’s own internal affairs investigation determined the five Miami officers had done a search that was not for law enforcement purposes, and not allowed. They were officially reprimanded, but not punished.

 

[Torn Mind]

And many are going to say well he should have gone to a less lethal option, eg a taser - but what happens if he tases her and she still initiates and kills the other girl? I say the columbus one is a justified shoot, even if it is tragic that someone young has lost their life.

I think if the exchange was longer and more conversational, then the "should've tased her" argument would hold water. But he just arrived, got spun around, and when he turned back, he saw the knife and other girl trying to back away from the knife. He waited until the last moment before firing.
Where the cop might have been too excessive is either bullet number 3 or 4. I think number 4 is unambiguously excessive; that's when the teenager clearly fell down and no longer a threat to the other girl/woman. It will be a matter of the autopsy to determine which was the bullet most responsible for death; if it was bullet number 4 that was the killing blow, he must be punished to some extent. If it were self-defense, self-defense itself requires imminent danger, meaning, it's damn about to happen in a split-second. In slow-mo, imminent danger was present with the first two, but when the third was shot, she spun and fell. He was able to process and react to the last point before the girl was going to make the downward stab, so he could have ceased immediately when the teenage girl and spun and fell after bullet 2 and the other one got away.

So, I would not fully vindicate the cop. But the teenage girl certainly provoked his response first.


The real matter is how did the situation escalate to the point a hothead teenage got her hands on a knife and wanted to stab someone so badly with adults present.

I even heard one of them stated that the cop "is not supposed to be here". So, was this some dispute the parties were planning on settling "internally" but a neighbor called?

The people might be family or "friends", meaning they knew each other.

Also, daddy of the dead could be nominated for a Oscar with his constant yelling into the camera of "you shot a little girl".

If there is one thing that irks me, it's teenagers can be called boys or girls. The dictionary definition may technically be correct, but there is a huge connotative difference between a prepubescent child and one who has gone through or is going through puberty. Teenagers are high-maintenance proto-adults with ever increasing adult tendencies, often with impulsive belligerence or recklessness to along with it.

 

[Kaido]

i think once robot tech gets good enough (20 years or so), most cops get replaced with robots that just stun or tackle everyone with no need to shoot

Robotics with recording abilities has a lot of future promise in many different situations. Accountability across the board for human beings in any situation is always pretty eye-opening. Tesla's multi-dashcam system has caught a LOT of stuff since it's rolled out:

Politician's Hit-and-Run Captured on Camera by Tesla's “Sentry Mode”

Ex-traffic Judge Willie Singletary backed his Cadillac Escalade into the Tesla.

www.insidehook.com

UPDATE: Tesla Sentry Mode Captures Car Keying: Video

Tesla Sentry Mode provides continuous surveillance of your vehicle so you can have peace of mind when you're away from the car. It's proving its value.

insideevs.com

Tesla 'Sentry Mode' Leads to Vandal Being Arrested for Keying Model 3

The Model 3's cameras recorded a young mom viciously running her keys through the car while taking cover behind her own child.

www.thedrive.com

https://youtu.be/geiC13IGsx4

 

[Red Squirrel]

The Columbus one is something not clear-cut avoidable.

The teenage female had a knife and it sure looked like she was going to impale the other girl/woman in the orange clothing.

The cop could have sat back and let her initiate the plunge motion, but then someone else might be dead or in the hospital.

That's where process needs to change. The aim should be to stop a threat, not kill it. Focus should be on tackling, tasing, disarming etc and as a very last resort, non lethal gun force. Lethal force should never be used unless the person is immediately trying to use lethal force. (ex: active shooter) there needs to be better tactics/training for dealing with melee weapons such as knives as well. And maybe better tools.

 

[Bitek]

I don't have a problem with cops, rather the clowns who go into police to be untouchable bullies, and who's only methods are force and compliance to commands.

That and petty traffic offences can get fked.

Police culture in many areas needs and overhaul to de emphasize force, and improve de-escalation and diplomacy.

If you treat the community like an enemy, expect that to be returned in kind.

 

[Captante]

that is why i don't live anywhere near cities

New Haven is a city and although I was concerned about potential unrest behind this case, I was not worried about much going down around here.

It's not "cities" so much as it's morons* you need to avoid. 😎

*(PLENTY of those to be found on BOTH sides of this topic lol)

 

[BarkingGhostar]

'To serve and protect [oneself]' is their motto.

 

[Red Squirrel]

'To serve and protect [oneself]' is their motto.

Pretty much. They are there to serve (the government/corporations) and protect (the government/corporations and themselves). They are not there for civilians. This is why lot of crimes like theft or assault between civilians do not really get much action, because it's only civilians that are a victim. But crimes that undermine a government process (ex: tax fraud) or a corporation (theft of corporate IP for example) then those things get full action to the maximum extend of the law. And if anyone even remotely threatens a cop, even something as basic as odd body language, they go full force for the kill.

Not all cops are like this though, some truly want to serve and protect the people, there are feel good stories about cops even joining in a basketball game on the street after some karen reported them for example. But unfortunately those are not the cops that get promotions or pay raises and they may even get in trouble over it.

 

[Torn Mind]

That's where process needs to change. The aim should be to stop a threat, not kill it. Focus should be on tackling, tasing, disarming etc and as a very last resort, non lethal gun force. Lethal force should never be used unless the person is immediately trying to use lethal force. (ex: active shooter) there needs to be better tactics/training for dealing with melee weapons such as knives as well. And maybe better tools.

Knives are tricky business though. Because although they are melee, an knife-wielding assailant can get by an individual with an advantage like strength or a firearm. A knife assailant does not give a potential victim much reaction time. Moreso than firearm on firearm, but still only seconds to react. Tasing a knife wielder is preferable yes, but there is only one shot in a taser. The Tueller Drill shows that a knife-attacker needs to be about 20 ft away to not reach the gun shooter.

The other matter is that the policy on paper in departments these days has already emphasized proportionate force relative to the level of resistance, generally speaking. The problem that cops are legally experienced and thus understand the exploits that can be used to cover for abuses. Defending to a stalemate is one such legal battle tactic. Using extenuating circumstances to excuse the violation of policy.

The police officer had justification for bullets 1 and 2 on the girl as she was legitimately threatening deadly force to another. But I do consider bullet 3 questionable and bullet 4 crossed the line as imminent danger had passed and he had proven moments prior that he was processing in microseconds quite well.

It is not that the paper rules are poor these days, but rather that officers become so well-versed in crime they themselves would pull out extenuating circumstances to justify their actions. If that 3rd or last bullet was the one that killed the knife-wielding girl, that would indeed be crossing the line as the grounds for self-defense passed in that quick moment. He was able to hold his fire until the last moment before she going make the stab. He should have been able to see the attacker relent just as quickly.

Neither media outlet side would report the story in the nuanced manner I have assessed it. It's always some hardline one way or the other.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Oh definitely, and I think that's where more training should come in. They really need to try to come up with better tactics for safely disarming/disabling someone with a knife. Now if the person is a few feet away and lunges right at you, then yeah I think in that case it's not worth the risk of trying the taser or non lethal force first, you have seconds to react at most. But a lot of these situations the person is flaunting the knife around and acting erratically but not necessarily seconds away from immediate threat, or they have another object in their hand that the cops think is a knife. (it's dark etc and visibility may not be perfect due to other factors).

I've seen videos of cops yelling instructions at people, like to get their license and registration, they reach over their glove box, then get shot because the cop thinks the person was pulling a knife. There needs to be better ways to handle these situations. There's even been some where the person had a legal gun in their glove box, and warned the cop that he had the gun just to try not to surprise the cop when he takes it out to get the license, and cop shot anyway. So many of these shootings could be prevented with better procedures and training.

 

[BoomerD]

Knives are tricky business though. Because although they are melee, an knife-wielding assailant can get by an individual with an advantage like strength or a firearm. A knife assailant does not give a potential victim much reaction time. Moreso than firearm on firearm, but still only seconds to react. Tasing a knife wielder is preferable yes, but there is only one shot in a taser. The Tueller Drill shows that a knife-attacker needs to be about 20 ft away to not reach the gun shooter.

The other matter is that the policy on paper in departments these days has already emphasized proportionate force relative to the level of resistance, generally speaking. The problem that cops are legally experienced and thus understand the exploits that can be used to cover for abuses. Defending to a stalemate is one such legal battle tactic. Using extenuating circumstances to excuse the violation of policy.

The police officer had justification for bullets 1 and 2 on the girl as she was legitimately threatening deadly force to another. But I do consider bullet 3 questionable and bullet 4 crossed the line as imminent danger had passed and he had proven moments prior that he was processing in microseconds quite well.

It is not that the paper rules are poor these days, but rather that officers become so well-versed in crime they themselves would pull out extenuating circumstances to justify their actions. If that 3rd or last bullet was the one that killed the knife-wielding girl, that would indeed be crossing the line as the grounds for self-defense passed in that quick moment. He was able to hold his fire until the last moment before she going make the stab. He should have been able to see the attacker relent just as quickly.

Neither media outlet side would report the story in the nuanced manner I have assessed it. It's always some hardline one way or the other.

When in doubt...empty the magazine.