The universe had a beginning.

[Moonbeam]

Yes, freewill to choose to be with God or not to be with God. In the end, people will get exactly what they want. Also, it isn't like it is difficult to choose to be with God in terms of the actual "work" involved. Christ did all the work for you- He fulfilled the law with His life and fulfilled the punishment for breaking the law with his death.

This has been said many times but it bears repeating: God is not just about "love." He is also about holiness and justice.

Get the love part down and holiness and justice will take care of themselves.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, but many idiots claim as much without a shred of evidence to support their claim.



Here we are with more completely fabricated, unsubstantiated claims.



Says fucking who?



More completely fabricated, unsubstantiated claims.

One thing's pretty obvious. When you react to LunarRay you don't have any free will at all. He hands you a punch tape and out comes the music.

 

[LunarRay]

Yes, freewill to choose to be with God or not to be with God. In the end, people will get exactly what they want. Also, it isn't like it is difficult to choose to be with God in terms of the actual "work" involved. Christ did all the work for you- He fulfilled the law with His life and fulfilled the punishment for breaking the law with his death.

This has been said many times but it bears repeating: God is not just about "love." He is also about holiness and justice.

It sounds like a Saddam in the sky to me. I mean... Worship Saddam or you'll burn.... not just here on earth but forever.... Now that is some kind of deal if you ask me....

There was no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Seems like a human creation to me. I can't imagine someone dying for me then if I don't comply I get to be burned forever....

 

[Onceler]

There is only king David saying though I make my bed in hell(here I think that it is just Hades mistranslated N.I.V. though I forget where).
The truth is that they use to believe in reincarnation same as the Eastern religions it just got taken out by the early Catholics.

 

[Onceler]

Well ThinClient where is it that I insulted you before you insulted me?

 

[spittledip]

It sounds like a Saddam in the sky to me. I mean... Worship Saddam or you'll burn.... not just here on earth but forever.... Now that is some kind of deal if you ask me....

There was no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Seems like a human creation to me. I can't imagine someone dying for me then if I don't comply I get to be burned forever....

Well, hell is supposed to be eternity without God- outside of his presence. That is the primary punishment... and for some, reward. People don't recognize His presence, but they will realize it when they are without.

Freedom seems to come with a price. People certainly want their freedom, don't they? Isn't this what all this arguing is really about?

 

[spittledip]

Get the love part down and holiness and justice will take care of themselves.

For our part, I agree with this. It is alot more difficult than just making the statement though- these threads are a clear indication of that.

 

[alzan]

Well, hell is supposed to be eternity without God- outside of his presence. That is the primary punishment... and for some, reward. People don't recognize His presence, but they will realize it when they are without.

Freedom seems to come with a price. People certainly want their freedom, don't they? Isn't this what all this arguing is really about?

We seem to be pretty good at creating our own personal heaven(s)/hell(s) during our lives; which may unfortunately spill into the lives of others from time to time. Maybe we should try creating more heaven(s) and let those spill into each others lives.

This life is complicated enough without the thought of an afterlife and what that will entail.

 

[Moonbeam]

We seem to be pretty good at creating our own personal heaven(s)/hell(s) during our lives; which may unfortunately spill into the lives of others from time to time. Maybe we should try creating more heaven(s) and let those spill into each others lives.

This life is complicated enough without the thought of an afterlife and what that will entail.

So true, and on top of everything else, we create what we fear. It is the belief in hell that makes it real. To fear hell is denial that one is already there.

Imagine the petty tyrant of a god that claims to be loving and compassionate and throws people into the fire who don't believe as punishment for not believing. There is only the joy of loving God like he loves you or not. The division of consciousness via the concepts of good and evil divided the mind against itself and created the notion of separation. We can heal or we can remain divided. The divided want everybody to pay for their suffering and that is our hell. In the name of the god of ego, the denier, we have created all this evil. 'Come to my way, my way my way, and we together will destroy the evil of the other." But that other is only the self we hide from. We are the devil, the divided who hallucinate him and point our boney fingers and condemn others in the name of infinite love.

 

[moonbogg]

This post is about how science is telling us how improbable it is that our universe came about by random chance. The probability that God created our universe is very high compared to that low odds.

String theory, M theory, inflationary theory, multiverse, branes, eternal expansion of bubble universes, anthropic theory, and quantum mechanic fluctuations are not realistic in that they fail to address the following issues without absurd consequences:

1) Fine tuning of many constants
2) Universe had a beginning
3) Entropy
4) Nothing (not anything) can't spontaneously become anything

I don't see what this popular argument has to do with god existing. It has no bearing on my belief or lack thereof.

The goal post just gets pushed back further, like always. It used to be said that god created life as it currently is. We know that isn't true, but god is still debated.
People now say god created the universal constants the way they are. What if that proves to be untrue? I think god will still be debated.
Nothing in nature happens only once, at least nothing to my knowledge. its easy to imagine universes trying to erupt from wherever they come from all the time, most of the time collapsing instantly, other times inflating for a brief time, but mostly nothing interesting happens. Once in a great while, something more lasting and interesting happens, and we could find ourselves in one of those more rare events.
Imagine how long this could have been going on for before our universe got here? Imagine how ridiculous it is to blindly assume that this universe is the first, the last and the only one to ever exist! LOL. That just sounds so unlikely to me.
It would have no bearing on the god debate. None whatsoever. The god debate would simply argue over new evidence, new facts, new opinions etc. The god debate evolves over time just like everything else. It can't be won.
People want an answer before they die, as if its so important to know. Well, if you bought into the whole BBQ scenario, then I'd expect that person to jump through many intellectual hoops for the sake of saving their tender soul. That's sad IMO.

 

[William Gaatjes]

This post is about how science is telling us how improbable it is that our universe came about by random chance. The probability that God created our universe is very high compared to that low odds.

String theory, M theory, inflationary theory, multiverse, branes, eternal expansion of bubble universes, anthropic theory, and quantum mechanic fluctuations are not realistic in that they fail to address the following issues without absurd consequences:

1) Fine tuning of many constants
2) Universe had a beginning
3) Entropy
4) Nothing (not anything) can't spontaneously become anything

Another explanation is that we live a universe filled with virtual particles.
No matter how hard you try to make a given location in the universe empty, there will always be the virtual particles. Our definition for empty or nothing is just that there is no measurable EM radiation and particles present. But that does not mean it is really a true pure void. And that what science is now trying to understand, at least i hop so.

 

[Moonbeam]

Another explanation is that we live a universe filled with virtual particles.
No matter how hard you try to make a given location in the universe empty, there will always be the virtual particles. Our definition for empty or nothing is just that there is no measurable EM radiation and particles present. But that does not mean it is really a true pure void. And that what science is now trying to understand, at least i hop so.

Is the observation of the universe what brings it into being? When you look far out or far within do we see ourselves? Does that mind that is fully awake mirror the content of the universe or is it the universe itself?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This post is about how science is telling us how improbable it is that our universe came about by random chance.

What do you think the odds are that the totality of the air molecules in your room are in their exact positions right now?

The probability that God created our universe is very high compared to that low odds.

I echo the earlier request to see the calculations and inequalities that could justify this statement.

String theory, M theory, inflationary theory, multiverse, branes, eternal expansion of bubble universes, anthropic theory, and quantum mechanic fluctuations are not realistic in that they fail to address the following issues without absurd consequences:

1) Fine tuning of many constants

Anthropic principle

2) Universe had a beginning

Shown not to be true in this very thread by the very author you tried to cite as an authority.

3) Entropy

The total energy of the universe is unknown.

4) Nothing (not anything) can't spontaneously become anything

Who has suggested that there ever was nothing?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The fine tuning argument always sounded like this to me:

"Choose a number between one and a billion."
"Okay, I choose 74352436."
"Wow, that's amazing, there was only a one in a billion chance that you'd choose that number!"

This line of reasoning only means anything if the person asking for the number also chose that number. And the universe only producing life under the set of its own exact constraints only means something if you suppose that life has some meaning that precedes the existence of the universe. Assuming the latter is already assuming a god of some sort and the question becomes moot.

I've always called this the "painting the target around the arrow" fallacy, although I think your description might be a bit more easily grasped. Kudos. :thumbsup:

 

[WHAMPOM]

Life after death? Think after we are shut off we are saved to the cloud? More likely we are all RAM on a computer without a save function.

 

[moonbogg]

Is the observation of the universe what brings it into being? When you look far out or far within do we see ourselves? Does that mind that is fully awake mirror the content of the universe or is it the universe itself?

This sounds interesting, but could you rephrase it so that it doesn't sounds like a riddle? What I mean is, if you think that observing the universe brings it into being, why not say, "observing the universe brings it into being."
Why not say, "If you look far out or far within, you will see yourself."
Why not say, "A mind that is fully awake is the universe itself."
They are interesting things to say, but I think people shut down when they have to figure out a riddle. What are your opinions on the things you said? True or untrue? Can you clarify?

The total energy of the universe is unknown.

I think some smart people think it equals zero.


Who has suggested that there ever was nothing?

There never was nothing or there still would be. People can stick god in there as the first thing, but that doesn't help obviously. We are all wrapped up in eternity somehow the way I see it. But we still gonna die, and dead means DEAD for crying out loud. If we don't like that, then we should try to fix it instead of pretending that some imaginary thing will fix it for us.

 

[alzan]

So true, and on top of everything else, we create what we fear. It is the belief in hell that makes it real. To fear hell is denial that one is already there.

Imagine the petty tyrant of a god that claims to be loving and compassionate and throws people into the fire who don't believe as punishment for not believing. There is only the joy of loving God like he loves you or not. The division of consciousness via the concepts of good and evil divided the mind against itself and created the notion of separation. We can heal or we can remain divided. The divided want everybody to pay for their suffering and that is our hell. In the name of the god of ego, the denier, we have created all this evil. 'Come to my way, my way my way, and we together will destroy the evil of the other." But that other is only the self we hide from. We are the devil, the divided who hallucinate him and point our boney fingers and condemn others in the name of infinite love.

There be many dragons to defeat and many universes to explore. It is the internal universe which vexes us all and whose dragons are fiercest; yet defeating them/coming to terms with it, will yield the greatest reward.

 

[alzan]

Life after death? Think after we are shut off we are saved to the cloud? More likely we are all RAM on a computer without a save function.

I'd rather not be saved to the cloud; I don't trust the overlords to not mess with my essence.

Like the ENIAC? Progs must be typed in and run for results.

 

[Moonbeam]

This sounds interesting, but could you rephrase it so that it doesn't sounds like a riddle? What I mean is, if you think that observing the universe brings it into being, why not say, "observing the universe brings it into being."
Why not say, "If you look far out or far within, you will see yourself."
Why not say, "A mind that is fully awake is the universe itself."
They are interesting things to say, but I think people shut down when they have to figure out a riddle. What are your opinions on the things you said? True or untrue? Can you clarify?

It would just be more words. I am a nobody. I don't know anything. But I believe that as one approaches understanding paradox occurs. Truth to me is the resolution of opposites in a higher understanding, the collapse of duality in being. I believe that being collapsed duality and I call that awakening, the awakening in the now. To be is not to be for the ego because the ego is duality. To awaken, to be present, is to be in the present. To be fully in the present ends time. To be in the present full of love is to find life immortal in the kingdom of heaven. Can the mind stop time? If it can it stops thought. It is thought that divides and thought is language. If there is a state of consciousness that is fully present in the now, It can't be arrived at by words. It can't be discovered by the ego. It is the absence of everything rather than the addition of the new. To know is not to know anything. It is only being, the coming full circle and the discovery of the original self, the monkey joy of swinging through the trees and hooting like a fool, but with all the potential of a human being. If you want to fill your cup with human joy, empty it so it can be filled to the top with it.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

 

[LunarRay]

Well, hell is supposed to be eternity without God- outside of his presence. That is the primary punishment... and for some, reward. People don't recognize His presence, but they will realize it when they are without.

Freedom seems to come with a price. People certainly want their freedom, don't they? Isn't this what all this arguing is really about?

According to the Catholic Church you are correct! But, and correctly, you've used the term, 'primary'. Secondary or additional punishment will be had as well according to the Church's doctrine and mentioned numerous times in the New bit of the Bible.

Used to be a Limbo place as well but the Church did away with that a number of years ago.... A place for the unbaptized Original Sin folks... IF true, that must have been one heck of a big place.... Maybe it is the 'Dark Energy' that seems to exist in the universe....

But.... and a big but... Why would a God make people and put this Original Sin on them thus insuring gazillions of folks would suffer the Limbo fate... Seems cruel and unusual punishment to me. Part of what I once wrote...., "... upon life's splintered bridge a garish sneer awaits..." So... I wonder, just who or what does the sneer belong to?

 

[LunarRay]

(snip)


4) Nothing (not anything) can't spontaneously become anything

We are forced to use the brains we've evolved to have. We can't intuit quantum stuffs... well... not with any comfort.

It seems at least plausible that where nothing.... not anything... and I chuckle at this bit.... exists something might become something. We seems to have this bias that expects to find borders containing the universe.... but if there are none then the universe expands to be something where nothing was.... for instance.... but marry quantum and relativity stuffs just about anything imaginable and unimaginable could occur.... and if time is not relative ... is occurring.

 

[Moonbeam]

We are forced to use the brains we've evolved to have. We can't intuit quantum stuffs... well... not with any comfort.

It seems at least plausible that where nothing.... not anything... and I chuckle at this bit.... exists something might become something. We seems to have this bias that expects to find borders containing the universe.... but if there are none then the universe expands to be something where nothing was.... for instance.... but marry quantum and relativity stuffs just about anything imaginable and unimaginable could occur.... and if time is not relative ... is occurring.

I think sometimes that if virtual particles arise from the vacuum and return to it in nanos of seconds, perhaps we are what that looks like from inside the particle that arises, born and gone in a nano that seems like eternity.

 

[spittledip]

According to the Catholic Church you are correct! But, and correctly, you've used the term, 'primary'. Secondary or additional punishment will be had as well according to the Church's doctrine and mentioned numerous times in the New bit of the Bible.

Used to be a Limbo place as well but the Church did away with that a number of years ago.... A place for the unbaptized Original Sin folks... IF true, that must have been one heck of a big place.... Maybe it is the 'Dark Energy' that seems to exist in the universe....

But.... and a big but... Why would a God make people and put this Original Sin on them thus insuring gazillions of folks would suffer the Limbo fate... Seems cruel and unusual punishment to me. Part of what I once wrote...., "... upon life's splintered bridge a garish sneer awaits..." So... I wonder, just who or what does the sneer belong to?

I don't disagree that it seems cruel and unusual. I hate it and yet I realize my like for something or lack of understanding something does not make it impossible or irrational. From a human perspective, all these things..

Whether or not the "Original Sin" was put on people rather than an actual choice- it seems to me it was a choice from what is written. I suppose God could have thrown the whole creation idea in the dustbin upon knowing the outcome, and then He could have created another one that He knew would work. I don't know if it is even possible for man to have not fallen, although I assume it probably was possible. My guess is that God just went with the first universe rather than go through a series of trial and errors as a series of trials and errors would do away with true freewill. One could argue that the very act of creation was predestination of sorts, but only in the most rigid sense. But this is all just speculation and doesn't really mean much. That is the thing about speculation- it doesn't mean much. There are too many unknowns to make an informed decision. We trust based on what we do know and have evidence of. There is too much beauty and good in the world for me to come to the conclusion that some evil mastermind was behind it... or the incredibly silly notion of a FSM for that matter.

Nice verse btw.

 

[LunarRay]

I think sometimes that if virtual particles arise from the vacuum and return to it in nanos of seconds, perhaps we are what that looks like from inside the particle that arises, born and gone in a nano that seems like eternity.

When you think in terms of billions and billions of years... Our universe is like 13.8 billion years old or at least the events that follow the expansion start... our life span is nano like.

Heck... maybe we were created 15 minutes ago with all the stuff before that set to give the illusion we've been here a long time... would we know?

 

[LunarRay]

I don't disagree that it seems cruel and unusual. I hate it and yet I realize my like for something or lack of understanding something does not make it impossible or irrational. From a human perspective, all these things..

Whether or not the "Original Sin" was put on people rather than an actual choice- it seems to me it was a choice from what is written. I suppose God could have thrown the whole creation idea in the dustbin upon knowing the outcome, and then He could have created another one that He knew would work. I don't know if it is even possible for man to have not fallen, although I assume it probably was possible. My guess is that God just went with the first universe rather than go through a series of trial and errors as a series of trials and errors would do away with true freewill. One could argue that the very act of creation was predestination of sorts, but only in the most rigid sense. But this is all just speculation and doesn't really mean much. That is the thing about speculation- it doesn't mean much. There are too many unknowns to make an informed decision. We trust based on what we do know and have evidence of. There is too much beauty and good in the world for me to come to the conclusion that some evil mastermind was behind it... or the incredibly silly notion of a FSM for that matter.

Nice verse btw.

guess we've to get on the same page to allow assumptions to carry the same weight and understanding... I posit:

God is without a time factor... Alpha/Omega... always was and always will be... eternity and etc...

Ergo, God would know all that was and is to be relative to us, in the now... all things are now. So it would follow, I think, that full knowledge is has...

I reckon it is plausible that God might simply be very old and pretty smart and filled with hope that what was started has purpose and an eternity of future...

I just can't reckon that this universe was created for us.... There are simply too many realities that go against that notion... Andromeda is about 2.5 million light years away and coming fast toward us... and there are simply too many opportunities for life elsewhere to have us proclaim sovereignty over the universe.