The universe had a beginning.

[MagickMan]

You're definitely showing signs of psychosis, you'r poor mind cockroach-like, when exposed to the sun. You need seriously to get medical attention as fast as you can. I really must apologize for having so much fun of you at your expense. I didn't see how sick you are. Shame on me for exposing your illness so publicly.

Deflecting, always deflecting. What little shred of dignity and community respect there was for you has evaporated, you won't address your wild inconsistencies, dubious spirituality, or abusive, trollish behavior, which isn't Christian in any way. You make a mockery of the very beliefs you claim to hold dear and your professed wisdom and piety are a sham.

 

[ThinClient]

The definition of what makes a philosophy is very broad. A simple google search points out that quantum mechanics/physics is indeed a philosophy.

Point in case a MIT course - philosophy of quantum mechanics.

There are even religions that have come up using quantum mechanics to support metaphysical backgrounds.

Owned.

 

[Carfax83]

You are so wrong it hurts.

How am I wrong? Have you read some of the comments by your illustrious peer, Cerpin Taxt?

Here's a fine one:

We've been over this before, and as I showed you the last time, DNA does not contain "information" and it is not a "code."

So he thinks there is no information in DNA And when pressed to find a credible or official source that says genetic code is NOT a code, he gives me some op-ed from a Science writer in a freaking online magazine

And by some of his comments, he seems to be a proponent of the infinite Universe, something which has no evidence whatsoever and actually defies the laws of Physics.

So basically, like I said, atheists are in denial and they're resorting to the same "God of the gaps" delusions that they pin on religious people; except their god is Science.

 

[Aldon]

My belief: If I can create a creature out of a sperm cell, then there has to be a sort of sperm cell for the universe. And luckily, our has been that sperm cell to create all of us.

 

[Moonbeam]

Deflecting, always deflecting. What little shred of dignity and community respect there was for you has evaporated, you won't address your wild inconsistencies, dubious spirituality, or abusive, trollish behavior, which isn't Christian in any way. You make a mockery of the very beliefs you claim to hold dear and your professed wisdom and piety are a sham.

Ah, you tell us more and more about your fears. You worry about your reputation. Without status you can't bully because nobody will pay attention to you. That makes us different. I know that nobody can hear my truth but you fear that nobody will believe your lies. For example, you are afraid that you can't just say I make a mockery of my beliefs and your reputation will make it true when in fact your beliefs are so absurd you can't begin to understand mine. You have seen your reflection in the mirror so deeply you have become the reflection itself. We have returned to the state where it all began where it is you that reflects the deepest truth, the secret truth of the Hidden Masters of Al Ketab Lle Ama first spoken in the language of Kai thousands of years ago and transmitted faithfully down to this day in a form understandable to the youngest English speaker. 'I am rubber and you are glue......and if you contest with a pompous self flattering boob who would call himself something like MagicMan, he will just drag you down to his level and attempt to beat you stupid with his greater experience." Now tell me something about my beautiful eyes. Are they not wonderful. And please oh please throw me in the briar patch if you must, but please oh please don't ruin my reputation. hehehehehehehe

 

[Moonbeam]

My belief: If I can create a creature out of a sperm cell, then there has to be a sort of sperm cell for the universe. And luckily, our has been that sperm cell to create all of us.

Is that egg on your face or just a beard? I ask because I'm missing an egg. Where the fuck did my egg go.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So he thinks there is no information in DNA

Information isn't "in" anything. It is something abstracted from the relationships among things. It isn't a physical thing. DNA is a physical thing.

More to the point, one can abstract "information" from just about anything. See my spilled pennies example, or hell take a geiger reading from a radium atom. It'll generate terabytes of "information" continually.

And when pressed to find a credible or official source that says genetic code is NOT a code, he gives me some op-ed from a Science writer in a freaking online magazine

It was simply a more comprehensive organization of the same facts I've presented you and which you have not even attempted to contest. It has not gone unnoticed that you refuse to confront those facts directly -- instead attempting to discount the cited article because the author isn't "official."

The facts are not decided by experts or authorities. They are decided by reality. The reality of this circumstance was nicely explained therein, and if you hope to rebut them you must address them directly -- it matters not who wrote them down.

And by some of his comments, he seems to be a proponent of the infinite Universe...

I'm more of a proponent of the "you-haven't-shown-that-its-finite" universe.

...something which has no evidence whatsoever....

Well, there's that whole "everywhere we look we see the universe" thing. Y'know... the "we can't seem to find the edges" thing. Feel free to reveal any evidence to the contrary, though.

... and actually defies the laws of Physics.

Oh, this oughta be good. Go ahead and tell me, Einstein. Which "laws of Physics" should an infinite universe defy, according to you, hmm? Don't you think that's something that might have occurred to Max Tegmark when he was constructing his cosmological model? If you think he overlooked some crucial fact to which you think you are privy, maybe you should shoot him an email and share with him your certainly valuable knowledge.

So basically, like I said, atheists are in denial and they're resorting to the same "God of the gaps" delusions that they pin on religious people; except their god is Science.

That's pretty funny coming from a guy who admitted his god is not a real phenomenon.

 

[MagickMan]

Ah, you tell us more and more about your fears. You worry about your reputation. Without status you can't bully because nobody will pay attention to you. That makes us different. I know that nobody can hear my truth but you fear that nobody will believe your lies. For example, you are afraid that you can't just say I make a mockery of my beliefs and your reputation will make it true when in fact your beliefs are so absurd you can't begin to understand mine. You have seen your reflection in the mirror so deeply you have become the reflection itself. We have returned to the state where it all began where it is you that reflects the deepest truth, the secret truth of the Hidden Masters of Al Ketab Lle Ama first spoken in the language of Kai thousands of years ago and transmitted faithfully down to this day in a form understandable to the youngest English speaker. 'I am rubber and you are glue......and if you contest with a pompous self flattering boob who would call himself something like MagicMan, he will just drag you down to his level and attempt to beat you stupid with his greater experience." Now tell me something about my beautiful eyes. Are they not wonderful. And please oh please throw me in the briar patch if you must, but please oh please don't ruin my reputation. hehehehehehehe

Keep on deflecting, and trying to somehow turn it around to me when you were the one that started all this. I think you need to whine and squirm some more. Oh, and spout off more that new age spiritual crap that you ripped-off from Dianetics and The Complete Idiot's Guide to New Age Christian Shamanism for Trolling Schizophrenic Assholes. :awe:

Better yet, cry some more about how everyone here hates you, that egotistical claptrap doesn't get old either.

 

[Moonbeam]

Keep on deflecting, and trying to somehow turn it around to me when you were the one that started all this. I think you need to whine and squirm some more. Oh, and spout off more that new age spiritual crap that you ripped-off from Dianetics and The Complete Idiot's Guide to New Age Christian Shamanism for Trolling Schizophrenic Assholes. :awe:

Better yet, cry some more about how everyone here hates you, that egotistical claptrap doesn't get old either.

Boing!

 

[HAL9000]

The universe had a beginning according to available evidence.

You make a jump from rational thought, to faith.

<---- Here

That the universe had a beginning is one of many signs pointing to God's existence. It matches with what He tells us in the Bible. God is an eternal (outside of time) existence.

Just because a scientific theory matches with something in the bible means absolutely nothing. There may be scientific theories that match with things in Harry Potter, that also, means nothing.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

There is one silver lining in these debates -- the Religionists seem to be conceding in the area of Epistemology. They seem to be conceding that "reason is man's means of knowledge" instead of simply being content with faith. It's slow progress, but at least it's some progress.

 

[fskimospy]

Odd, that's pretty much my take on your position: You're missing the forest for trees and God must be subject to the rules because you say so.

Actually I wouldn't be telling you that.

Fern

Wait what?

I'm not saying that god has to be subject to anything, only that you have no basis for exempting god from these rules other than a declaration that it is so. It is illogical.

Whether you like it or not, god suffers from every single first cause problem the universe does. As I said in my original post you have simply chosen to square this circle by saying "nuh-uh". You haven't provided a single reason why one entity should be exempt from a requirement for a first cause but not the other except to say that one doesn't because you say so.

If that is a convincing argument to you then you are welcome to it. Don't try and pretend it is rational though.

 

[LunarRay]

Wait what?

I'm not saying that god has to be subject to anything, only that you have no basis for exempting god from these rules other than a declaration that it is so. It is illogical.

Whether you like it or not, god suffers from every single first cause problem the universe does. As I said in my original post you have simply chosen to square this circle by saying "nuh-uh". You haven't provided a single reason why one entity should be exempt from a requirement for a first cause but not the other except to say that one doesn't because you say so.

If that is a convincing argument to you then you are welcome to it. Don't try and pretend it is rational though.

That's not entirely true. We have some theorists dealing in quantum mechanics and the potential for an universe to 'pop' into existence when there was nothing... no laws, no space, no nuttin.... so from their POV there is no precursor to the event... and certainly no time either... and if there was no time factor it seems plausible there is no first cause... An infinite anything seems to deal with time as some component of the analysis.... Maybe some would argue that 'Hilbert's Hotel' has no time aspect but unless all the movement occurred in the same.... there it is ... time frame there would be...
A God seems to fit into that scenario too... Least ways it is possible and as usual when dealing with god(s) it is not falsifiable.

 

[LunarRay]

There is one silver lining in these debates -- the Religionists seem to be conceding in the area of Epistemology. They seem to be conceding that "reason is man's means of knowledge" instead of simply being content with faith. It's slow progress, but at least it's some progress.

Folks who base a belief on faith still have this Left Brain issue that nags at the core of that belief.... We evolved to deal with what were our issues so to deal with them.... We didn't know about the realities we see today and until we evolve a bit more to cope with them we will still find ourselves seeking the answers through a faith belief.... Well... most of us, anyhow.

I think we are pretty far along now a days in being able to deal with our universe and its mysteries. I see no reason for the kids of today to find answers in a god but their parents and their onlookers still call them "catholic or Jewish or whatever Kids" cuz their parents are... How many of us proclaim our nationality to be Irish or German.... all the while being US citizens... we want to identify as something.... always grasping it seems to me... We seems to even try to adopt the culture of our heritage at times... It is interesting....

 

[William Gaatjes]

The beginning of the universe with the big bang...

 

[LunarRay]

My belief: If I can create a creature out of a sperm cell, then there has to be a sort of sperm cell for the universe. And luckily, our has been that sperm cell to create all of us.

I think I understand your post but could rephrase it a bit.

The universe is here.... I am here... I'd be surprised to learn that either it or I'm not here. How it started is reasonable.... A stork dropped me in a basket ... so I'm told... And, God created the universe and the stork.... So... given I'm made up of the elements of God's creation, delivered by another of his creations there was no spermy thing involved... or eggs either unless you think the baby making stork had a parental unit that God created.

 

[Fern]

The definition of what makes a philosophy is very broad. A simple google search points out that quantum mechanics/physics is indeed a philosophy.
-snip-

I'm familiar that it can be. But when you stretch the definition of philosophy that far it encompasses all of science. I.e., the accusation is meaningless.

Fern

 

[sandorski]

There is one silver lining in these debates -- the Religionists seem to be conceding in the area of Epistemology. They seem to be conceding that "reason is man's means of knowledge" instead of simply being content with faith. It's slow progress, but at least it's some progress.

Indeed.

 

[spittledip]

There is one silver lining in these debates -- the Religionists seem to be conceding in the area of Epistemology. They seem to be conceding that "reason is man's means of knowledge" instead of simply being content with faith. It's slow progress, but at least it's some progress.

Conceding? Faith has always been based on reason, although not consistently. Some people may hold a belief or faith that they have not reasoned through, but a blanket claim that those who hold faith have not used reasoning when coming to and working out their faith is false. The claim that faith has nothing to do with reason is a fallacy that has been pushed alot as a means to discredit the "religious". Any faith that is not thought through carefully is a pretty useless faith.

 

[Fern]

Conceding? Faith has always been based on reason, although not consistently. Some people may hold a belief or faith that they have not reasoned through, but a blanket claim that those who hold faith have not used reasoning when coming to and working out their faith is false. The claim that faith has nothing to do with reason is a fallacy that has been pushed alot as a means to discredit the "religious". Any faith that is not thought through carefully is a pretty useless faith.

Yeah.

He's apparently never really been around religious people much. My father and brother get into debates about theological issues. It's like sitting around listening to two tax lawyers debate some obscure detail of tax law.

Fern

 

[William Gaatjes]

My English is not that good, but i will try to explain :
For the interested, there is such a thing as self assembly. To keep it simple, atoms prefer certain energy levels aka molecular shape. When you take a given set of atoms, and add enough EM radiation at a given environment temperature... A certain lattice will form. Thus atoms prefer a certain lattice shape or form a certain molecule. Now, with molecules it is the same thing.
This concept is the basis of life. And it happens everywhere in the universe at environments similar to our solar system. Asteroids flying around through the solar wind showered with EM radiation and ions are a perfect birth place to form the complex molecules needed. When these asteroids crash into a planet such as earth, these complex molecules are spread around the crash site. These molecules interact with the complex molecules formed here on the planet. And that is how it starts, there are multiple complex molecules that interact. This universe is a nursery for life itself. It has no use to debate
who or what was the origin.

It is all about self assembly at the atom level and at the molecular level.
And when we humans master the use of self assembly in every discipline, we will transcend to a better way of life with a more enlightened mindset or we will destroy each other, probably by accident.
That does not mean we do not make use of it now. I believe plastics are created with a crude from of self assembly. But how about silicon wafers ?
Pure crystal wafer. Upcoming nanotechnology is another discipline.



Do you like to know more ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-assembly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_self-assembly

 

[William Gaatjes]

If you want to understand your creator, try to understands how the universe is formed. Then you will meet your creator. But be warned, you may not like what you will become or happen to you when you do grasp what might be out there. Everyday life becomes meaningless...

 

[ThinClient]

If you want to understand your creator, try to understands how the universe is formed. Then you will meet your creator. But be warned, you may not like what you will become or happen to you when you do grasp what might be out there. Everyday life becomes meaningless...

Everyday life IS meaningless. There is no inherent meaning in anything. The only meaning in anything is what you make it.

How do you know that there is a creator?

 

[Retro Rob]

Everyday life IS meaningless. There is no inherent meaning in anything. The only meaning in anything is what you make it.

How do you know that there is a creator?

That also means that your lack of meaning is a product of your mind, right? If you can assign meaning, you can also remove it.

Make consistent arguments, instead of appealing to your obvious incredulity.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Everyday life IS meaningless. There is no inherent meaning in anything. The only meaning in anything is what you make it.

How do you know that there is a creator?

It is part of human nature to find meaning in life. It is a psychological extension of the desire for procreation. Problem solving is very beneficial for procreation. Also for animals. a safe home, food and offspring. That is the basic drive.

How do i know there is a creator ?
I put a lot of effort in understanding the universe and life in it for the last few years by reading a lot science papers from multiple disciplines. And it was so much that most i have forgotten and that i burned myself up. But i had revelation after revelation only later to find out that this was already proven by science. I was on the right track. Then i realized one thing, we always have a choice. And there is always the exception. Then i started digging more and more to find the always present exception. And it is like a fractal. Consistency yet there is always an exception. It will never end.

Without endlessly debating the definition of good...
If god exist, would you be a good person because god exists ?
Or would you just be a good person even if god does not exist ?
There is something wrong with god fearing people. With the right mindset there is nothing to fear and an evil god should not be worshipped.
It is all about karma and free choice.