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The United States needs to be not so much loved as it needs to be respected. - Dick Cheney
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Zebo
Elite Member
Agreed. Yes there will be a chemical or biological attack by a certain adherents of a peaceful religion knowing their MO so when it's happens there is no vindication for Cheney anymore than saying the sun will rise from the east.
Obama is trying a more isolated approach to combating terror including, publically opening his heart to Muslims, supporting secular leaders, and will continue to kill their mujahideen on the down low. That is probably a more effective tactic than taking them all on. Since no one likes these radicals, but if forced to choose like Bush made them do - co-religion, nationalism and tribalism takes over and you get no where if not blow back making it worse.
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.
bamacre
Lifer
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
And when, or if, Obama places further sanctions on Iran?
And before you answer, may I remind you that the sanctions placed on Iraq were responsible for hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths.
soccerballtux
Lifer
Weak argument, for obvious reasons.
However, I do think the rest of the world needs a wakeup call...as in...if they think we are imperialists, then they forget that of all the "dictators" of history, we are teddy bears.
That's why, at least in my case, their whining falls on deaf ears.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
Of course.
AND Obama should be able to continue the trend with relative impunity, behind the scenes, & without any public knowledge of the dark deeds, because he doesn't have the willing brainwashed operatives from the opposite party firmly engaged in destroying the things that make this country (successful) strong.
Proving Clinton was equally good at preventing terrorist attacks on our soil - even better, since the people behind the one early in his presidency were actually caught.
After that, there were no more such terrorist attacks on US soil during his 8 years in office, proving how great he was at preventing them.
Oh ya, and his policies that 'worked' did not include Guantanamo, war in Iraq, torture etc.
The evil people on the right simply distort the logic around their evil desires.
They want to torture, and so more attacks would prove the need for being willing to torture to prevent additional attacks, and no attacks proves torture prevented any.
So no matter what happens, thier conclusion is that their evil polices are justified.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
Well, instant kharma didnt get him. It must be saving him up for a slow horrible painful death.
But seriously, why should we care what he says... Its not like he weas right about anything in 8 years of power. Suddenly his idiotic paranoid views should matter? Bah
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
And when, or if, Obama places further sanctions on Iran?
And before you answer, may I remind you that the sanctions placed on Iraq were responsible for hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths.
And how does this relate to what? 😕
TallBill
Lifer
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
Good thing we haven't done it yet!
Suspicious-Teach8788
Lifer
The operative word is IF. Because IF all those charges you list have any real footing in the court of law, then great, but if it's just a bunch of macros that would only stand up on your kangaroo court of law, then that's rather unfortunate. Just because Obama says that any documented criminality should be prosecuted doesn't mean that there's any real indisputable documented criminality. It doesn't mean that all the "crimes" you've "listed" that fall into this "grey area" automatically stick to the Bushwhackos.
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
Good thing we haven't done it yet!
No good thing about it. The EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals have, in fact, committed treason, murder, torture and other war crimes against American citizens.
The only way we can cleanse ourselves of their stench is to prosecute the Bushwhacko criminals for the crimes they have committed against the American people.
TallBill
Lifer
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
Good thing we haven't done it yet!
No good thing about it. The Commander In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals have, in fact, committed treason, murder, torture and other war crimes against American citizens.
The only way we can cleanse ourselves of their stench is to prosecute the Bushwhacko criminals for the crimes they have committed against the American people.
Innocent until proven guilty my overzealous friend. Also, fixed for correct title.
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
Good thing we haven't done it yet!
No good thing about it. The Commander In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals have, in fact, committed treason, murder, torture and other war crimes against American citizens.
The only way we can cleanse ourselves of their stench is to prosecute the Bushwhacko criminals for the crimes they have committed against the American people.
Innocent until proven guilty my overzealous friend. Also, fixed for correct title.
They have not yet been convicted in a court of law, but there's nothing "innocent" about the Bushwhackos or the crimes they've committed.
- '
- Your EX-Traitor In Chief and his EX-Vice Traitor In Chief have both admitted explicitly approving the use of torture and other acts recognized as war crimes and crimes against humanity, some of which were committed on U.S. soil. Those are crimes under both U.S. and international law.
- They both admit authorizing illegal surveillance of the phone and Internet communications of every American citizen. That constitutes a direct violation of their oaths of office to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." I consider that to be treason.
- As of 2/1/09, 4,237 American troops have died in their war of LIES in Iraq. I've previously posted that each of those deaths comprises a count of first degree murder under two separate, valid theories of the crime under both state and Federal statutes.
Do I really have to repost one of my page long macros documenting their crimes... yet AGAIN? :roll:
Fuck Dickwad Cheney! If the U.S. is ever again to be respected in the world, we must return to aspiring to live up to our own self-announced, self-defined ideals. We will never defeat evil by continuing to be the evil we claim to oppose.
Lemon law
Lifer
The Cheney logic is strange indeed. Basically saying you should insult everyone in the world and give them every reason to Fear the USA. And that will protect us???????????
My partial fear as a US citizen is that the various people who hate the acts of GWB&co will make no distinction between me and the actual idiots inside of GWB&co who give them all kinds of very good reasons to hate all Americans. And unlike Dick Cheney and GWB, I have no cordon of secret service agents to protect me.
As for just a partial list of ordinary people who have paid the price for those Cheney;s behavior, we have the Jadec list of "* 2002 - Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and beheaded in Karachi.
* 2002 - Nine people killed by bomb blast near US embassy in Lima - seen as attempt to disrupt forthcoming visit by President George W Bush.
* 2002-2006 - Karachi consulate attacks: three separate attacks killed 18 people (including an American diplomat) and injured 87.
* 2002 - Two Marines shot, one killed in Kuwait.
* 2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 9 Americans, among 35 others.
* 2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization of terrorist groups has taken responsibility for the attack."[1]
* 2003-present - Damascus terrorist attacks: American interests in Syria targeted by Islamist terrorists.
* 2004 - Civilians Nick Berg, Jack Hensley, and Eugene Armstrong kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq.
* 2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
* 2007 - American embassy attacked in Athens, Greece.
* 2007 - 9 People killed in a mall in Omaha , Nebraska.
* 2008 - John Granville, US diplomat, assassinated in Khartoum, Sudan
*2008 - US Embassy attacked by Al Qaeda in Yemen, 11 killed"
Not to mention all the US and Nato troops who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, all the misspent money maintaining a war on terror that creates more terrorists, and with no end in sight.
NO MR. CHENEY, I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU KNOW ANYTHING OR UNDERSTAND ANYTHING. WHICH IS WHY I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD STAND TRIAL FOR WAR CRIMES. THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I FEEL SAFER AS YOUR SAD STINKING THINKING CAN BE PUT TO A FITTING CLOSE.
My partial fear as a US citizen is that the various people who hate the acts of GWB&co will make no distinction between me and the actual idiots inside of GWB&co who give them all kinds of very good reasons to hate all Americans. And unlike Dick Cheney and GWB, I have no cordon of secret service agents to protect me.
As for just a partial list of ordinary people who have paid the price for those Cheney;s behavior, we have the Jadec list of "* 2002 - Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and beheaded in Karachi.
* 2002 - Nine people killed by bomb blast near US embassy in Lima - seen as attempt to disrupt forthcoming visit by President George W Bush.
* 2002-2006 - Karachi consulate attacks: three separate attacks killed 18 people (including an American diplomat) and injured 87.
* 2002 - Two Marines shot, one killed in Kuwait.
* 2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 9 Americans, among 35 others.
* 2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization of terrorist groups has taken responsibility for the attack."[1]
* 2003-present - Damascus terrorist attacks: American interests in Syria targeted by Islamist terrorists.
* 2004 - Civilians Nick Berg, Jack Hensley, and Eugene Armstrong kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq.
* 2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
* 2007 - American embassy attacked in Athens, Greece.
* 2007 - 9 People killed in a mall in Omaha , Nebraska.
* 2008 - John Granville, US diplomat, assassinated in Khartoum, Sudan
*2008 - US Embassy attacked by Al Qaeda in Yemen, 11 killed"
Not to mention all the US and Nato troops who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, all the misspent money maintaining a war on terror that creates more terrorists, and with no end in sight.
NO MR. CHENEY, I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU KNOW ANYTHING OR UNDERSTAND ANYTHING. WHICH IS WHY I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD STAND TRIAL FOR WAR CRIMES. THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I FEEL SAFER AS YOUR SAD STINKING THINKING CAN BE PUT TO A FITTING CLOSE.
I believe Cheney is right in some respects. Actually a fair amount of stuff that he says is right in some sense. The problem is 1) it's overshadowed by failure and 2) he's damaged goods.
We do not need countries to love us. It's silly to think we must be loved by other countries and I don't think it's the goal of any country around the world to be loved by others.
However we do need to build strong relationships and act with integrity, both of which require respect. Respect is earned many ways, and yes that may include an occasional beatdown when necessary. (we can all argue when a beatdown is necessary, or what the beatdown should look like, but it's a factual, sometimes necessary variable in world politics).
It's similar to current COIN debate and emerging doctrine. Hearts and minds may be too lofty a goal in most cases... what we really need to focus in on is trust. We don't need to win the hearts and minds of countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to win their trust. Once that occurs, a more realistic outcome can be achieved quicker and cheaper (in money and blood).
It's hard to remove Cheney the man from the words, but there is some logic to be found.
We do not need countries to love us. It's silly to think we must be loved by other countries and I don't think it's the goal of any country around the world to be loved by others.
However we do need to build strong relationships and act with integrity, both of which require respect. Respect is earned many ways, and yes that may include an occasional beatdown when necessary. (we can all argue when a beatdown is necessary, or what the beatdown should look like, but it's a factual, sometimes necessary variable in world politics).
It's similar to current COIN debate and emerging doctrine. Hearts and minds may be too lofty a goal in most cases... what we really need to focus in on is trust. We don't need to win the hearts and minds of countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to win their trust. Once that occurs, a more realistic outcome can be achieved quicker and cheaper (in money and blood).
It's hard to remove Cheney the man from the words, but there is some logic to be found.
BoomerD
No Lifer
THIS part I agree with.
Fear us or respect us. Either way, don't fuck with us...or else.
However, I also agree with many of the other posters. Darth Cheney should have been impeached and brought up on charges of war crimes for his part in the Iraq war lie machine.
After watching "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" yesterday in school, I think Bush, Cheney, and Ah-Nold should all be criminally charged with multiple counts of fraud, theft, and rape for what they did to Kahleeforneeya and the energy crisis of 2000-2001.
The question is, do you support a double standard - is it ok for Iran to take actions to be 'feared', for Hamas to take actions to be 'feared', etc.?
If you go barging into your neighbors house in the middle of the night and try to take his TV, you have somr reason to fear his reaction. But you get along fine normally.
The US too often wants to define 'being feared' not as keeping people from breaking in and taking tv's, but as letting us break in and take their tv's. That's wrong.
No one's suggesting the US let others do wrong to it; the problem today is the arrogance of power where the US has a blindness to its own wrongs, a 'who cares' thug attitude where people who chose wrong policies are enabled by a disinterested, amoral public to do what they like, and all they have to do is smooth it over with a little PR.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
That is what happens when America sets back and watches from the sidelines. I believe our weak leadership, and it's non-interventionist policy ultimately led to the death of some 400,000 americans in WW2, making it possible for Germany, at our expense, to become a peacful Industrial Powerhouse, after Hitler killed his millions. Imagine (since that is all we can do) if we would have pre-empted Hitlers actions.
bamacre
Lifer
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
And when, or if, Obama places further sanctions on Iran?
And before you answer, may I remind you that the sanctions placed on Iraq were responsible for hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths.
And how does this relate to what? 😕
I thought my question was quite clear and obvious.
It is so important to realize that as with all complex and paradoxical issues, there are always two polar views that resolve at a higher understanding. Cheney is at one pole, the realization that when evil comes after you you had better fight. This is very true. What he does not see is that he is that evil. He reacts without comprehension. There's lots of evil in the world for folk like Cheney, because there are lots of people who think like him.
And you can see the blindness in his world. 'Better to be respected than loved'. He means, of course, that fear is more powerful than real respect, of which he knows nothing. He doesn't understand the real nature of love because he does not have any. He understands fear perfectly, however, because he is full of it. When faced with fear, he had other priorities, remember?
But fear can be mitigated by desperation, rage, and other powerful emotions. Respect can't be so easily broken. The human soul longs for higher ideals. It is why the good can't ever really lose. It is written into the soul of man.
So when you deal with psychotics filled with self hate, you will have to be strong and cause them to fear your power. But when you fight the Great War of good vs evil, if you aren't on the side of good you will parish. The soul of man is love and its power is known only to those who know it, but it is the ultimate power. In love the lover and all his hate disappear. The lover can't be touched by evil. The lover has no self.
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Harvey
Meanwhile, we must never again elect people to office who are willing to commit treason, murderer, torturer, war crimes and crimes against humanity elsewhere in the world because it means they are willing to commit those crimes here, against us.
We know this is true because we elected them, ... :Q
... and that's what they did.🙁
And when, or if, Obama places further sanctions on Iran?
And before you answer, may I remind you that the sanctions placed on Iraq were responsible for hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths.
And how does this relate to what? 😕
I thought my question was quite clear and obvious.
Guess you'd better think again. :roll:
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