The unintended consequences of the Americans With Disabilities Act

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,696
13,425
146
With every new feel good legislation and regulation comes the unintended consequences. It's too bad that no one ever reports on the consequences.

The most telling is that the net effect of the ADA is FEWER disabled are employed.

JOHN STOSSEL: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished?
By John Stossel

Published September 02, 2010

You own a business, maybe a restaurant. You've got a lot to worry about. You have to make sure the food is safe and tastes good, that the place is clean and appealing, that workers are friendly and paid according to a hundred Labor Department and IRS rules.

On top of that, there are rules you might have no idea about.

The bathroom sinks must be a specified height. So must the doorknobs and mirrors. You must have rails. And if these things aren't right -- say, if your mirror is just one inch too high -- you could be sued for thousands of dollars.

And be careful. If you fail to let a customer bring a large snake, which he calls his "service animal," into your restaurant, you could be in trouble.

All of this is because of the well-intentioned Americans With Disabilities Act, which President George H.W. Bush signed 20 years ago. It's the subject of my Fox Business show this week.

The ADA was popular with Republicans and Democrats. It passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming majorities, 377 to 28 in the House and 91 to 6 in the Senate.

What does it do? The ADA prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities, requiring businesses to provide the disabled "equal access" and to make "reasonable accommodation" for employees. Tax credits and deductions are available for special equipment (talking computers, for instance) and modifying buildings to comply with the accessibility mandate.

The ADA was supposed to help more disabled people find jobs. But did it?

Strangely, no. An MIT study found that employment of disabled men ages 21 to 58 declined after the ADA went into effect. Same for women ages 21 to 39.

How could employment among the disabled have declined?

Because the law turns "protected" people into potential lawsuits. Most ADA litigation occurs when an employee is fired, so the safest way to avoid those costs is not to hire the disabled in the first place.

Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and author of the blog, Overlawyered.com, says that the law was unnecessary. Many "hire the handicapped" programs existed before the ADA passed. Sadly, now most have been quietly discontinued, probably because of the threat of legal consequences if an employee doesn't work out.

Under the ADA, Olson notes, fairness does not mean treating disabled people the same as non-disabled people. Rather it means accommodating them. In other words, the law requires that people be treated unequally.

The law has also unleashed a landslide of lawsuits by "professional litigants" who file a hundred suits at a time. Disabled people visit businesses to look for violations, but instead of simply asking that a violation be corrected, they partner with lawyers who (legally) extort settlement money from the businesses.

Some disabled people have benefited from changes effected by the ADA, but the costs are rarely accounted for. If a small business has to lay off an employee to afford the added expense of accommodating the disabled, is that a good thing -- especially if, say, customers in wheelchairs are rare? Extra-wide bathroom stalls that reduce the overall number of toilets are only some of the unaccounted-for costs of the ADA. And since ADA modification requirements are triggered by renovation, the law could actually discourage businesses from making needed renovations as a way of avoiding the expense.

A few disabled people speak up against the law. Greg Perry, author of "Disabling America: The Unintended Consequences of the Government's Protection of the Handicapped," says that because the disabled now represent an added expense to businesses, many resent them.

Finally, the ADA has led to some truly bizarre results. Exxon gave ship captain Joseph Hazelwood a job after he completed alcohol rehab.

Hazelwood then drank too much and let the Exxon Valdez run aground in Alaska. Exxon was sued for allowing it to happen. So Exxon prohibited employees who have had a drug or drinking problem from holding safety-sensitive jobs. The result? You guessed it -- employees with a history of alcohol abuse sued under the ADA, demanding their "right" to those jobs. The federal government (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) supported the employees. Courts are still trying to sort it out.

More money for the parasites.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,696
13,425
146
If businesses didn't discriminate to begin with a slap on the hands would not have been needed.

I see your reading comprehension is lacking.

Businesses discriminate MORE now, because the ADA opens them up to lawsuits, thus making disabled employees a financial risk and even more undesirable than before.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Yeah, screw those disabled people. Let's not give them access to a store, job, gov't building, bus, etc b/c I have spend money to build a ramp or elevator. They need to stay at home and rot.

More than feel good and has benefited the disabled much more than it hasn't. Every law, legislation, etc will have unintended consequences. Nothing is 100% perfect.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Amused posting another PoS fox article, and from Flip Flopper Stossel, who would have thought.


Thanks for the laugh, you always make yourself a good joke. :)
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
If businesses didn't discriminate to begin with a slap on the hands would not have been needed.

As usual you missed the point completely. The legislation, while well-intentioned, either backfires and causes the opposite to happen than what was intended, or has negative unintended consequences, or both.

This is something frequently talked about among managers/executives/directors - but only in private, never 'officially' for obvious reasons.

If I'm hiring for a position, and my choice is between two candidates that are fully and equally qualified: Candidate A, straight white male, age 30. Candidate B: black openly lesbian female with a physical disability, age 45. Which one makes logical sense to hire? Very simple. Candidate A, no doubt about it. Why? Because if the candidate doesn't work out or if there are ever any "issues", I can fire A without any problems. If I hire B, and something happens, I'm gonna have major problems firing her, because she's a walking lawsuit waiting to happen. She has so many angles to sue (ADA, EO, etc) that a lawsuit is almost certain if the parting is acrimonious. This research confirms this logical behavior by hiring managers. It's not that they are making a bigoted or discriminatory hiring decision, they are just making the only logical decision.

When writing this kinds of feel-good legislation, lawmakers have to be a lot more careful about how things end up playing out, and what the actual consequences will be.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
Yeah, screw those disabled people. Let's not give them access to a store, job, gov't building, bus, etc b/c I have spend money to build a ramp or elevator. They need to stay at home and rot.

More than feel good and has benefited the disabled much more than it hasn't. Every law, legislation, etc will have unintended consequences. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Nobody suggested that nothing has to be done to protect certain people and give everyone in society as much of an opportunity as possible. However, see my post above for an explanation, and the research just confirms it as more than mere anecdotal discussions.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
Amused posting another PoS fox article, and from Flip Flopper Stossel, who would have thought.

Thanks for the laugh, you always make yourself a good joke. :)

Yes, attack the messenger (Stossel), but don't say anything about the MIT research backing the article. After all, MIT is just a right-wing hateful bigoted bastion of conservatism. :rolleyes:
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
As usual you missed the point completely. The legislation, while well-intentioned, either backfires and causes the opposite to happen than what was intended, or has negative unintended consequences, or both.

This is something frequently talked about among managers/executives/directors - but only in private, never 'officially' for obvious reasons.

If I'm hiring for a position, and my choice is between two candidates that are fully and equally qualified: Candidate A, straight white male, age 30. Candidate B: black openly lesbian female with a physical disability, age 45. Which one makes logical sense to hire? Very simple. Candidate A, no doubt about it. Why? Because if the candidate doesn't work out or if there are ever any "issues", I can fire A without any problems. If I hire B, and something happens, I'm gonna have major problems firing her, because she's a walking lawsuit waiting to happen. She has so many angles to sue (ADA, EO, etc) that a lawsuit is almost certain if the parting is acrimonious. This research confirms this logical behavior by hiring managers. It's not that they are making a bigoted or discriminatory hiring decision, they are just making the only logical decision.

When writing this kinds of feel-good legislation, lawmakers have to be a lot more careful about how things end up playing out, and what the actual consequences will be.


That is one of the dumbest things to even think. By selecting the Guy you did open yourself up to a lawsuit, and a lawsuit more easy to prove then if you hired her and then fired her. She sues and if she is more qualified then him; would probable have a good case as what are you going to do, admit you did not hire due to race, disability, etc...?
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
I agree with the OP. When I was interning for a city, we did ADA compliance stuff. Apparently some guy sued another city for ADA noncompliance and the city had to spend a ridiculous amount of $$$ to fix the curb ramps for ADA compliance.

Cities are forced to tear out perfectly fine ramps and put in truncated domes, for instance.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Nobody suggested that nothing has to be done to protect certain people and give everyone in society as much of an opportunity as possible. However, see my post above for an explanation, and the research just confirms it as more than mere anecdotal discussions.

If you read the MIT study, they use data from 1993-96, after the ADA went in affect in 1992 to show a decline since the ADA. The decline is also small and happened right after ADA, what about now? What was the trend prior to 1993? Flaw study.

I agree with your above post but everyone should have the same opportunity. If I can't interview or work a job b/c I can't enter the building b/c of my wheelchair, I should just be shit out of luck?

And the OP is a troll, just look at his other threads.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
That is one of the dumbest things to even think. By selecting the Guy you did open yourself up to a lawsuit, and a lawsuit more easy to prove then if you hired her and then fired her. She sues and if she is more qualified then him; would probable have a good case as what are you going to do, admit you did not hire due to race, disability, etc...?

Ummm... beavis... go back and read my post. I specifically said that they are both fully and EQUALLY qualified.

Basically, if in the long run each logical decision results in a pattern of discrimination, then the company opens itself up to such a suit. However, for each single hiring decision, as the hiring manager, my logical decision is exactly as I said: hire A, and not B.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
If you read the MIT study, they use data from 1993-96, after the ADA went in affect in 1992 to show a decline since the ADA. The decline is also small and happened right after ADA, what about now? What was the trend prior to 1993? Flaw study.

I agree with your above post but everyone should have the same opportunity. If I can't interview or work a job b/c I can't enter the building b/c of my wheelchair, I should just be shit out of luck?

And the OP is a troll, just look at his other threads.

The MIT study is for a specific relatively small period, and only one type of "protected category", but I'd be willing to bet the farm that if someone were to do a larger scale study you'd find the same results for other categories as well.

I don't disagree with your premise of equal access and equal opportunity, so I'm not saying those things should not be done, just that you have to be VERY careful how you do it, or it will backfire and/or create all sorts of other issues.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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Stossel claims installing mirrors and handrails too high to be usable by someone in a wheelchair should just be ignored, because fixing the mistake costs money.

Sorry, someone in a wheelchair should be able to use the bathroom in a restaurant too. Build it right the first time and there won't be any extra costs.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
Stossel claims installing mirrors and handrails too high to be usable by someone in a wheelchair should just be ignored, because fixing the mistake costs money.

Sorry, someone in a wheelchair should be able to use the bathroom in a restaurant too. Build it right the first time and there won't be any extra costs.

He didn't claim any such thing. He simply said that there is a cost to that action, and that those costs are rarely taken into account when evaluating possible legislation. That is all correct.

Regardless, it should not be possible for professional litigants to go into every business to find "gotcha!" items to try and extort money. The laws are in place to protect those with disabilities, not create a money making racket for some. For example, if it turns out that something wasn't built exactly to spec, then the resolution should be to make them fix it to spec, not to provide punitive damages to plaintiffs.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,696
13,425
146
Yeah, screw those disabled people. Let's not give them access to a store, job, gov't building, bus, etc b/c I have spend money to build a ramp or elevator. They need to stay at home and rot.

More than feel good and has benefited the disabled much more than it hasn't. Every law, legislation, etc will have unintended consequences. Nothing is 100% perfect.

When did I say screw the disabled?

The ADA, as written, is a horrible piece of legislation. And it's net results have been negative, not positive. An entire industry has sprung up over lawsuits, and fewer disabled people are employed.

About the only people the ADA has benefited are lawyers, and a few litigious disabled people. Everyone else has lost.

Your post implies I wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I never said that and neither did Stossel.

As with the "think of the children" argument, one cannot win when it comes to arguing against the ADA as written, because of emotional arguments such as your own.

Ya know, it's funny, but before the ADA the disabled weren't staying home and rotting. They were adapting to fit the world rather than forcing the world to adapt to fit them. Much the same as child safety laws that force the world to be childproof rather than parents taking responsibility for their kids.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
10
0
That is one of the dumbest things to even think. By selecting the Guy you did open yourself up to a lawsuit, and a lawsuit more easy to prove then if you hired her and then fired her. She sues and if she is more qualified then him; would probable have a good case as what are you going to do, admit you did not hire due to race, disability, etc...?

/facepalm
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,641
58
91
First and foremost would be make ADA complaints no longer civilly actionable.

I agree with this.

The office I work in (built in the early 70s) is in dire need of having the bathrooms remodeled, however due to the ADA the work to remodel them would be so expensive that the building management won't do it. :(
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,696
13,425
146
Amused posting another PoS fox article, and from Flip Flopper Stossel, who would have thought.


Thanks for the laugh, you always make yourself a good joke. :)

As usual, you poison the wells and offer no valid counter point whatsoever.

The joke is on you.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
With every new feel good legislation and regulation comes the unintended consequences. It's too bad that no one ever reports on the consequences.

The most telling is that the net effect of the ADA is FEWER disabled are employed.

JOHN STOSSEL: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished?
By John Stossel

Published September 02, 2010

You own a business, maybe a restaurant. You've got a lot to worry about. You have to make sure the food is safe and tastes good, that the place is clean and appealing, that workers are friendly and paid according to a hundred Labor Department and IRS rules.

On top of that, there are rules you might have no idea about.

The bathroom sinks must be a specified height. So must the doorknobs and mirrors. You must have rails. And if these things aren't right -- say, if your mirror is just one inch too high -- you could be sued for thousands of dollars.

And be careful. If you fail to let a customer bring a large snake, which he calls his "service animal," into your restaurant, you could be in trouble.

All of this is because of the well-intentioned Americans With Disabilities Act, which President George H.W. Bush signed 20 years ago. It's the subject of my Fox Business show this week.

The ADA was popular with Republicans and Democrats. It passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming majorities, 377 to 28 in the House and 91 to 6 in the Senate.

What does it do? The ADA prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities, requiring businesses to provide the disabled "equal access" and to make "reasonable accommodation" for employees. Tax credits and deductions are available for special equipment (talking computers, for instance) and modifying buildings to comply with the accessibility mandate.

The ADA was supposed to help more disabled people find jobs. But did it?

Strangely, no. An MIT study found that employment of disabled men ages 21 to 58 declined after the ADA went into effect. Same for women ages 21 to 39.

How could employment among the disabled have declined?

Because the law turns "protected" people into potential lawsuits. Most ADA litigation occurs when an employee is fired, so the safest way to avoid those costs is not to hire the disabled in the first place.

Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and author of the blog, Overlawyered.com, says that the law was unnecessary. Many "hire the handicapped" programs existed before the ADA passed. Sadly, now most have been quietly discontinued, probably because of the threat of legal consequences if an employee doesn't work out.

Under the ADA, Olson notes, fairness does not mean treating disabled people the same as non-disabled people. Rather it means accommodating them. In other words, the law requires that people be treated unequally.

The law has also unleashed a landslide of lawsuits by "professional litigants" who file a hundred suits at a time. Disabled people visit businesses to look for violations, but instead of simply asking that a violation be corrected, they partner with lawyers who (legally) extort settlement money from the businesses.

Some disabled people have benefited from changes effected by the ADA, but the costs are rarely accounted for. If a small business has to lay off an employee to afford the added expense of accommodating the disabled, is that a good thing -- especially if, say, customers in wheelchairs are rare? Extra-wide bathroom stalls that reduce the overall number of toilets are only some of the unaccounted-for costs of the ADA. And since ADA modification requirements are triggered by renovation, the law could actually discourage businesses from making needed renovations as a way of avoiding the expense.

A few disabled people speak up against the law. Greg Perry, author of "Disabling America: The Unintended Consequences of the Government's Protection of the Handicapped," says that because the disabled now represent an added expense to businesses, many resent them.

Finally, the ADA has led to some truly bizarre results. Exxon gave ship captain Joseph Hazelwood a job after he completed alcohol rehab.

Hazelwood then drank too much and let the Exxon Valdez run aground in Alaska. Exxon was sued for allowing it to happen. So Exxon prohibited employees who have had a drug or drinking problem from holding safety-sensitive jobs. The result? You guessed it -- employees with a history of alcohol abuse sued under the ADA, demanding their "right" to those jobs. The federal government (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) supported the employees. Courts are still trying to sort it out.

More money for the parasites.

I can't find a reference to the MIT study anywhere except in this article, and it doesn't mention the names of the researchers, let alone link it. I doubt he just made it up, but I've learned to never trust journalistic descriptions of research because they usually oversimply and often distort what it actually says. I'd like to know, for example, the magnitude of the decline in employment among the disabled, and particular whether they have isolated causation of if it is just a correlation. If you can find the actual study that would be great. Until then, I'll treat it as non-evidence.

Incidentally, a 2009 MIT study also shows increased risk of global warming:

http://www.globalwarmingisreal.com/...imate-change-is-going-to-be-twice-as-extreme/

I assume you wouldn't accept that uncritically would you?

Stossel is definiately right about one thing - the law has given rise to a bevy of unscrupulous plaintiff's lawyers who are out to make a buck. That could end if they just amend the law to permit recovery of only minimal attorney's fees. It need not be repealed.

- wolf
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Regardless, it should not be possible for professional litigants to go into every business to find "gotcha!" items to try and extort money. The laws are in place to protect those with disabilities, not create a money making racket for some. For example, if it turns out that something wasn't built exactly to spec, then the resolution should be to make them fix it to spec, not to provide punitive damages to plaintiffs.

I agree with that. The point of any suit should just be to provide the accommodation, not to make ambulance chasers money.

Penalties should only exist if not providing proper facilities was done knowingly and willfully, and in that case the money should go to the state or feds to cover enforcement costs, not to some lawyer.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,696
13,425
146
I can't find a reference to the MIT study anywhere except in this article, and it doesn't mention the names of the researchers, let alone link it. I doubt he just made it up, but I've learned to never trust journalistic descriptions of research because they usually oversimply and often distort what it actually says. I'd like to know, for example, the magnitude of the decline in employment among the disabled, and particular whether they have isolated causation of if it is just a correlation. If you can find the actual study that would be great. Until then, I'll treat it as non-evidence.

Incidentally, a 2009 MIT study also shows increased risk of global warming:

http://www.globalwarmingisreal.com/...imate-change-is-going-to-be-twice-as-extreme/

I assume you wouldn't accept that uncritically would you?

Stossel is definiately right about one thing - the law has given rise to a bevy of unscrupulous plaintiff's lawyers who are out to make a buck. That could end if they just amend the law to permit recovery of only minimal attorney's fees. It need not be repealed.

- wolf

I believe that was Stossel's point all along. Not that the idea behind the ADA is wrong, but that the legislation itself is flawed and counter productive.

No, I don't accept any study uncritically. But there is a big difference between biased climate models based on nothing but speculation, and the simple act of counting heads.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
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www.facebook.com
I'm opposed to the ADA. It's ridiculous. It drives up the cost of business and it prevents disabled people from being hired. It's completely counter-effective.
 

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