the ultimate "do i need a 24pin PSU ?" thread

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Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,576
7
81
Originally posted by: rocketPack
Thank you! I was afraid people would mis-interpret what I said and blow me off, but I'm glad to see that it's being taken seriously. I will try to put together a better representation of the hazards and risks posed by these kinds of issues so that people with little to no electrical background may comprehend the deeper meaning behind it. But again, I'm just glad people took it the right way =).

(By the way, just to answer any doubts out there - I am an electronics major in college right now ;))

Congradulations of you college efforts! Keep it up.
 

rocketPack

Member
Jan 5, 2005
52
0
0
OK, I'm back and armed with pictures (well, A picture...)

This should give a better idea of how to calculate what you are doing to your PSU and its wiring. Examine the following picture and read the details below.
http://www.rocketpack.net/stuff/psu_currents.jpg

In the picture you will notice there are three variables and three "zones". Do not mistake that the variables refer directly to the zones. I is representative of "current" (measured in amperes, or amps)- why I most people ask; well, because "C" is the constant for the speed of light, for one thing, but it has other meanings I don't want to get into - just take my word for it. Since this is pure (and basic) DC, there are only 3 (technically 4) things we need to be concerned with: VOLTAGE (V or E, measured in VOLTS), the force "pushing" electronics through the wire (known also by E for the alternate definition "electro-motive force"); CURRENT (I, measured in AMPS or AMPERES), the number of electrons moving through the wire (kind of like volume when talking about liquid); and RESISTANCE (R, measured in OHMS); and lastly POWER (P, measured in WATTS [among other things]), which is a combination of VOLTAGE and CURRENT to give an overall idea of the amount of energy being consumed. OK, that's the background.

As previously stated we can have about 72W flowing through each line of the power supply. This is because each wire has a small amount of resistance - which causes heat (this is energy being consumed because it is pushing back against the voltage- think of it as electrical friction), even though its intended to conduct, this world is not perfect. At lower current levels this resistance is quite nominal, but it determines the maximum amount of current a piece of wire can handle before it heats to the point where its insulation and eventually the wire itself melts which poses (hopefully) obvious risks and begins to break down.

Now, each of the Is (I1, I2, I3) in the picture represent the current flowing through each plug on the line (for the purpose of this post the entire span of wire will be refered to as "the line") - aka the current being demanded by the device attached to the plug. So, let's say for example that the plug on the very end (the floppy connector) is connected to a floppy drive which consumed a fairly nominal amount of power, maybe a couple of watts tops (2 or 3). Because the wires (as you can see) from that plug are attached to the next plug, the current from that wire is now flowing past the connector corresponding to I2. These two currents are additive as they share a wire. Now say that your second plug (at I2) is connected to a hard drive. They consume (give or take) about 10W. Now we're up to about 12W. All 12W of that power is being drawn through the greenish/yellow zone of the cable now. Say that at last we attached a splitter to the connector at I3, and hooked up another hard drive (10W) and then our very hungry video card's power adapter, say 60W (let's pretend). Each of our wattages seem quite harmless, 60W, 10W, 10W, 2W... but wait a second, they're all additive. The red zone is now forced to carry the entire 92W load - well above its specifications allow. Adding more splitters to this scenario can easily make this into a catastrophic situation, causing power supplies to overheat and either catch fire or fail (often putting out unpredictable currents and voltages to sensitive electronic devices as it fails), or the wiring to overheat and melt, causing a short which would again lead to fire or power supply failure. In this example it didn't take much!

Also note that any electrical noise created at the connector corresponding to I3 will be spread on to the other devices on that rail, and if any one one of the devices changes its voltage or current demand drastically it can cause a power dip or spike in all other devices on the same line, so make sure you chose carefully when you plug your devices in. Things that use motors (like fans) often create electrical noise (only a small amount because their power demand is so little, but noise is noise). Personally I would never put important things like video cards and hard drives on the same line as a fan or similar device, so as to make the possability of interference a little as I can.

I hope that the picture and scenario explanation can shed some light onto why using splitters and adapters is such a risky and sometimes dangerous practice. Please chose carefully when you buy a power supply, and make sure it has what you need - buy a power supply that will require as few "adapters" and "splitters" as you possibly can (while, obviously, still meeting the demands for output rating and quality assurance).

Good luck, be careful, and feel free to ask me if you have any questions - I'm not claiming to be a pro or an expert (nor will I take on that kind of responsibility :p), but if you're in doubt it's always good to ask around! I'd rather take a moment to give someome advice than to listen to them whine about a wrecked rig!

-Scott
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,383
146
Originally posted by: rocketPack
OK, I'm back and armed with pictures (well, A picture...)

This should give a better idea of how to calculate what you are doing to your PSU and its wiring. Examine the following picture and read the details below.
http://www.rocketpack.net/stuff/psu_currents.jpg

In the picture you will notice there are three variables and three "zones". Do not mistake that the variables refer directly to the zones. I is representative of "current" (measured in amperes, or amps)- why I most people ask; well, because "C" is the constant for the speed of light, for one thing, but it has other meanings I don't want to get into - just take my word for it. Since this is pure (and basic) DC, there are only 3 (technically 4) things we need to be concerned with: VOLTAGE (V or E, measured in VOLTS), the force "pushing" electronics through the wire (known also by E for the alternate definition "electro-motive force"); CURRENT (I, measured in AMPS or AMPERES), the number of electrons moving through the wire (kind of like volume when talking about liquid); and RESISTANCE (R, measured in OHMS); and lastly POWER (P, measured in WATTS [among other things]), which is a combination of VOLTAGE and CURRENT to give an overall idea of the amount of energy being consumed. OK, that's the background.

As previously stated we can have about 72W flowing through each line of the power supply. This is because each wire has a small amount of resistance - which causes heat (this is energy being consumed because it is pushing back against the voltage- think of it as electrical friction), even though its intended to conduct, this world is not perfect. At lower current levels this resistance is quite nominal, but it determines the maximum amount of current a piece of wire can handle before it heats to the point where its insulation and eventually the wire itself melts which poses (hopefully) obvious risks and begins to break down.

Now, each of the Is (I1, I2, I3) in the picture represent the current flowing through each plug on the line (for the purpose of this post the entire span of wire will be refered to as "the line") - aka the current being demanded by the device attached to the plug. So, let's say for example that the plug on the very end (the floppy connector) is connected to a floppy drive which consumed a fairly nominal amount of power, maybe a couple of watts tops (2 or 3). Because the wires (as you can see) from that plug are attached to the next plug, the current from that wire is now flowing past the connector corresponding to I2. These two currents are additive as they share a wire. Now say that your second plug (at I2) is connected to a hard drive. They consume (give or take) about 10W. Now we're up to about 12W. All 12W of that power is being drawn through the greenish/yellow zone of the cable now. Say that at last we attached a splitter to the connector at I3, and hooked up another hard drive (10W) and then our very hungry video card's power adapter, say 60W (let's pretend). Each of our wattages seem quite harmless, 60W, 10W, 10W, 2W... but wait a second, they're all additive. The red zone is now forced to carry the entire 92W load - well above its specifications allow. Adding more splitters to this scenario can easily make this into a catastrophic situation, causing power supplies to overheat and either catch fire or fail (often putting out unpredictable currents and voltages to sensitive electronic devices as it fails), or the wiring to overheat and melt, causing a short which would again lead to fire or power supply failure. In this example it didn't take much!

Also note that any electrical noise created at the connector corresponding to I3 will be spread on to the other devices on that rail, and if any one one of the devices changes its voltage or current demand drastically it can cause a power dip or spike in all other devices on the same line, so make sure you chose carefully when you plug your devices in. Things that use motors (like fans) often create electrical noise (only a small amount because their power demand is so little, but noise is noise). Personally I would never put important things like video cards and hard drives on the same line as a fan or similar device, so as to make the possability of interference a little as I can.

I hope that the picture and scenario explanation can shed some light onto why using splitters and adapters is such a risky and sometimes dangerous practice. Please chose carefully when you buy a power supply, and make sure it has what you need - buy a power supply that will require as few "adapters" and "splitters" as you possibly can (while, obviously, still meeting the demands for output rating and quality assurance).

Good luck, be careful, and feel free to ask me if you have any questions - I'm not claiming to be a pro or an expert (nor will I take on that kind of responsibility :p), but if you're in doubt it's always good to ask around! I'd rather take a moment to give someome advice than to listen to them whine about a wrecked rig!

-Scott

You had me at hello:p

 

Kinghunter

Member
Mar 1, 2005
25
0
0
If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Keep the one you have, unless you're getting random reboots, shutdowns, or BSOD's.

Well I found the power supply I have is appearently not to good it came with my Raidmax Cobra 822 output is:
+3.3V@26A +5V@32A +12V@13A -5V@.5A -12V@.8A +5Vsb@2A
I want to overclock an 64 3000+ to about 2.2ghz could this psu handle it? Or should I go with a new psu with 24pin? Any recommendations on a new one less than $75 would be be appreciated.
 

tranquil1024

Member
Feb 12, 2005
30
0
0
Hi...i just need some advice...atm im on a very cheap 20 pin psu .,,but lets not get into that anyway...i have an EPoX EP-5EPA+ and a Sapphire X800 Pro PCI-e and atm i have my psu's 20 pin connector plugged into the 24 pin connector...I have now bought an Antec True550 ATX12V (also has a 20 pin connector) with an amperage of 30A on +12V and im just wondering whether it will be fine...becuase i dont want to screw up again...ive proven that it does work putting a 20 pin connector into a 24 pin socket but id like to know the truth...with my very power-demanding system will i need to get an adapter because im very eager to stick this thing in right now...btw...im also using two molexes on the PCI-Ex video card because im using an adapter

Full Specs:
EPoX EP-5EPA+
P4 Prescott 3.4 ghz not oc'd
Sapphire ATI Radeon X800 Pro PCI-Ex
1 GB RAM
Cheap 480w power supply and brand new Antec True550 sitting on my shelf
 

ps3ud0

Junior Member
Mar 3, 2005
1
0
0
Hi rocketPack,

If its ok I would appreciate any help you (or anyone) can regards my noob question:

Im looking to possibly get a dual 12v rail PSU like the OCZ Powerstream 600W (20A/18A) or Enermax Noisetaker 600W (18A/18A) and I wanted to work out if their seperate rails would be adequate (of course they would be, but no harm in checking as I really should know this :p).

Basically how do you work out the current usage for each component - is it simply:

Current (Amps) = Power (Watts) / Voltage (Volts)

On top of this I need to consider what uses the 12v - as I understand its the CPU, PCI, PCI-Express and HD/Opticals - is there anything else?

Also Im still trying to double check what the 12V1 rail supplies (I think its CPU only) and what the 12V2 rail supplies (everything else?)...

From all that I should have a good idea what is needed and will have to quantitatively/qualitatively take into considering how load across rails affects current supply and also temperature decreasing overall power (presumable because of increasing resistance). Any help would be appreciated...

Thxs again for the above post on spilters as its a concern that I get enough connectors without needing those things...

ps3ud0 :cool:

My system spec should be (if thats any help - soz its long - reads better):
A64 3500+ 90nm;
XP-120 + Panaflo Fan;
DFI NF4 SLI-DR;
GSKILL 4400LE 1GB;
X850XT PE VIVO;
Onboard Sound (for now);
Raptor 74GB;
7200.8 300GB;
7K500 500GB (when out);
a DVDRW;
Liteon 16x DVDROM;
Mitsumi FA 404M;
CM-Stacker + Cross Flow Fan;
OCZ/Enermax 600w;
MX4 LCD Bay;
a TV Card.
 

FastEddie

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,946
0
0
I wouldn't care if god himself came off the mount and recommended that unit---it's not worth the $220 price tag when there are a couple dozen units priced under $100 that will work just as well, and suite the purpose for what's required in powering an sli rig. ;)
 

Ender Wiggin

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2005
2
0
0
Hi everyone, I'm a newbie about to build a computer, and the issue of 20-pin vs. 24-pin connectors did not escape me.

The stuff that I've read (including some of the earlier stuff on this thread) makes me believe that my equipment is compatible, but I just want to be sure because some of the higher level jargon is beyond me.

Antec True 430 W (I believe 20-pin)
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDe...-103-908&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

Powercolor X800 XL
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDe...-131-299&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

Gigabyte nForce 4 (I believe 24-pin)
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDe...-128-268&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

Would this work without buying anything additional? If it is compatible, would it be difficult to get it to work? Thanks for your help.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Originally posted by: mechBgon
flexy, it looked like there were a few questions about which 20 holes to plug a 20-pin into, on a 24-pin board. I have an image from the Asus A8N-SLI manual that I edited to help show that, if it helps:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/mechBgon/20in24.gif

Don't listen to mechBgon, he's a n00b...............lol J/K
He actually has a great computer building tutorial in his sig. ;)
 
May 6, 2004
138
0
0
There are a few questions remaining:

What's that -5V thingy on various PSU's (usually at 0,5A) ? MSI and Gigabyte say they need that but hardly any ATX 2.0 with 2x 12v supplies that -5v.

I am planning on having a Yesico http://www.yesico.de/products/550atxt.htm FL-550ATX(T) with TMS powering a nF4 Ultra board. MSI says on their nF4 Ultra and up mainboards the 12v ATX needs to be greater than 18A. I can't figure out if they mean the combined A of the two available 12v rails or any of the single rails?
 

bradr

Junior Member
Mar 10, 2005
4
0
0
Guys I'm new to all of this and was hoping for some help. I just bought an AMD Athlon 64, 3200+ cpu and DFI Lan-party Nforce 4 Ultra-D mobo. I just ordered the Antec 1080Plus case with 430 Watt Truepower supply. Will the power supply be good enough? I havn't purchased the rest of the computer yet and will be doing so right away. I plan on getting an 80 SATA hard drive, DVD-RW, 6600GT vid card and am still undecided about my RAM. I was wanting to get some low latency RAM with 2-2-2-5 timings.
 

Go Go Gadget

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2005
14
0
0
I have been having problems with a 6800GT.

Right now I have a Chaintech VNF4 and a True430 (ANTEC)

I have the extra power cables for the 6800GT plugged into molex connectors, yet I still don't get enough power.

The card stops performing welll and pops up a message telling me so, and that it doesnt have sufficient power.

Do you think that if I got a 24-pin power supply, it would work?
 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,576
7
81
Originally posted by: Go Go Gadget
I have been having problems with a 6800GT.

Right now I have a Chaintech VNF4 and a True430 (ANTEC)

I have the extra power cables for the 6800GT plugged into molex connectors, yet I still don't get enough power.

The card stops performing welll and pops up a message telling me so, and that it doesnt have sufficient power.

Do you think that if I got a 24-pin power supply, it would work?

Yes, You DO NEED a 24 Pin PSU. The 4 extra pins provide power to your graphics cards. That is where it is most likely lacking.

PC Power and Cooling Has the only PSU Certified and Approved by nVIDIA for use in SLI Systems.
Two Models are avalable: 510watt and 850watt. Both have Dual PCI-e Power cables.

http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_sli_powersupplies.html
 

Go Go Gadget

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2005
14
0
0
A bit expensive for my tastes at 200+ dollars, but thanks!

I will now go out and get a new power supply.


edit: those special 6pin cables look awesome though.