The UK is getting a little too carried away with their surveillance of public streets.

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: K1052
Why don't they just combine the CCTV system with commercial TV and install one in every home so that the government can help keep you safe from others, yourself, and that ever so troublesome independent thought and speech so you don't have to worry about it?

Oh wait, that sounds part of a plot to a famous book that will soon move from the fiction shelves here in the US to the British history section....

That's a nice slippery-slope fallacy, but if you're claiming that CCTV is an invasion of independent thought and free speech then could you please prove it instead of sounding like a dogmatic retard who has had the words "liberty" and "freedom" drilled into his head so much that he's forgotten what those words actually mean?

The fact is that when people are being robbed or attacked, it's better to know that someone with a police radio is watching you and alerting a local police car, instead of gambling that a member of the public might just step in and help you, because frankly people rarely do these days, and that's why CCTV is so common here in the first place.

But hey, I guess us Brits know nothing. After all, shootings must be national news over there too right? Oh wait.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: K1052
Why don't they just combine the CCTV system with commercial TV and install one in every home so that the government can help keep you safe from others, yourself, and that ever so troublesome independent thought and speech so you don't have to worry about it?

Oh wait, that sounds part of a plot to a famous book that will soon move from the fiction shelves here in the US to the British history section....

That's a nice slippery-slope fallacy, but if you're claiming that CCTV is an invasion of independent thought and free speech then could you please prove it instead of sounding like a dogmatic retard who has had the words "liberty" and "freedom" drilled into his head so much that he's forgotten what those words actually mean?

The fact is that when people are being robbed or attacked, it's better to know that someone with a police radio is watching you and alerting a local police car, instead of gambling that a member of the public might just step in and help you, because frankly people rarely do these days, and that's why CCTV is so common here in the first place.

But hey, I guess us Brits know nothing. After all, shootings must be national news over there too right? Oh wait.

I claimed no such thing if you took the time to read, I merely made a suggestion.

I could also resort to childish name-calling but that is rather crude and a sign of a weak intellect. It is endlessly ironic to me that your country created the minds that in large part fomented the American Revolution and who were stringent supporters of liberty and freedom even above practicality.

 

[Ime]

Originally posted by: jagec
"Welcome, to City 17."

Yep, that pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

 

[Ime]

Originally posted by: Qianglong
Soon they'll install HellFire missles under the CCTV to fire at any anti-social people or people that look like a bus/train/plane/people bomber etc.

Predator drone man, predator!

No, it would be machine guns. Cameras with machines guns.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: K1052
I claimed no such thing if you took the time to read, I merely made a suggestion.

I could also resort to childish name-calling but that is rather crude and a sign of a weak intellect. It is endlessly ironic to me that your country created the minds that in large part fomented the American Revolution and who were stringent supporters of liberty and freedom even above practicality.

I took the time to read what you said, and it was nothing more than a slippery-slope fallacy with some serious dashings of "OMG LOL CCTV = BIG BROTHER 1984 LOLOLO!!11111oneone!111shift+1!!!" and wasn't worth the brain-fart you had that made you write it, period. Back your crap up, I know this is ATOT and that I'm expecting way too much from people other than garbage, but at least make the effort.

I'm also glad you agree that going on about freedom and liberty is impractical in a situation such as this. Concession accepted.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: bersl2
Right. If you are in a public place, you are fair game.

One question, though: What is the oversight like? I mean, there are other parties that monitor the behavior of the monitors, right? Right?

I'm not sure what you're asking me, there's not much the CCTV operators can do except watch and record you. It's not like they are pointing water balloons at you.

Why don't they just combine the CCTV system with commercial TV and install one in every home so that the government can help keep you safe from others, yourself, and that ever so troublesome independent thought and speech so you don't have to worry about it?

Oh wait, that sounds part of a plot to a famous book that will soon move from the fiction shelves here in the US to the British history section....

You have no expectation or right to privacy in public, no matter what country you live in. :roll:

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: ElFenix
and there is the major difference between people in the US and people in the UK: people in the US don't trust government, generally, and people in the UK do (which is amazing considering how badly parliament treated people during the english civil war and commonwealth, i guess compared to the stuarts it wasn't bad, tho)

I don't know anybody who trusts our current government, but I know a lot of people who trust a CCTV operator more than a member of the public.

when i say government, i don't just mean the ruling party in parliament. those CCTV operators are usually law enforcement, are they not?

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
when i say government, i don't just mean the ruling party in parliament. those CCTV operators are usually law enforcement, are they not?

The city council and local police usually run CCTV, yes, and while I have no faith in the Blair government, I do have faith in my city council and the local police.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: K1052
I claimed no such thing if you took the time to read, I merely made a suggestion.

I could also resort to childish name-calling but that is rather crude and a sign of a weak intellect. It is endlessly ironic to me that your country created the minds that in large part fomented the American Revolution and who were stringent supporters of liberty and freedom even above practicality.

I took the time to read what you said, and it was nothing more than a slippery-slope fallacy with some serious dashings of "OMG LOL CCTV = BIG BROTHER 1984 LOLOLO!!11111oneone!111shift+1!!!" and wasn't worth the brain-fart you had that made you write it, period. Back your crap up, I know this is ATOT and that I'm expecting way too much from people other than garbage, but at least make the effort.

I'm also glad you agree that going on about freedom and liberty is impractical in a situation such as this. Concession accepted.

My suggestion was partly tounge in cheek and partly serious.

As the western country that has embraced CCTV technology the most thoroughly (by far), surely you must see the parallels between Orwell's work and the increasingly monitored state you live in. The real question at the core of my post is where will you Brits draw the line between saftey and privacy/liberty/freedom. Thus far it does not appear that you have even come close to it yet (as long as the gov can convince you it makes you safer).

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Balt

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: bersl2
Right. If you are in a public place, you are fair game.

One question, though: What is the oversight like? I mean, there are other parties that monitor the behavior of the monitors, right? Right?

I'm not sure what you're asking me, there's not much the CCTV operators can do except watch and record you. It's not like they are pointing water balloons at you.

Why don't they just combine the CCTV system with commercial TV and install one in every home so that the government can help keep you safe from others, yourself, and that ever so troublesome independent thought and speech so you don't have to worry about it?

Oh wait, that sounds part of a plot to a famous book that will soon move from the fiction shelves here in the US to the British history section....

You have no expectation or right to privacy in public, no matter what country you live in. :roll:

So, theoretically, if the government came up with a way to monitor your every movement and every single thing you do/say in public for your entire life (and being the governemnt the info would be accessible to the general public via a FOIA request) you would be ok with that?

I know that is taking it to an extreme (though could be made possible as technology advances), but consider it.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Balt

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar

Originally posted by: bersl2
Right. If you are in a public place, you are fair game.

One question, though: What is the oversight like? I mean, there are other parties that monitor the behavior of the monitors, right? Right?

I'm not sure what you're asking me, there's not much the CCTV operators can do except watch and record you. It's not like they are pointing water balloons at you.

Why don't they just combine the CCTV system with commercial TV and install one in every home so that the government can help keep you safe from others, yourself, and that ever so troublesome independent thought and speech so you don't have to worry about it?

Oh wait, that sounds part of a plot to a famous book that will soon move from the fiction shelves here in the US to the British history section....

You have no expectation or right to privacy in public, no matter what country you live in. :roll:

So, theoretically, if the government came up with a way to monitor your every movement and every single thing you do/say in public for your entire life (and being the governemnt the info would be accessible to the general public via a FOIA request) you would be ok with that?

I know that is taking it to an extreme (though could be made possible as technology advances), but consider it.

That would depend entirely on how invasive it is. If the government decided to place cameras monitoring every public place I don't see how you could argue that it's beyond their purview. Most people are probably already recorded a lot more than they realize by both private (businesses) and public cameras. In the future it will probably even go a step further with widespread checking of facial patterns and such for everything from terrorists to the guy who skipped bail for shoplifting.

On the other hand, if they wanted to install tracking chips into people that would be an entirely different matter and not relevant to this particular thread at all.

 

[SampSon]

It's the UK, who cares?

I would dig having that job of yelling at people I see on camera.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: K1052
My suggestion was partly tounge in cheek and partly serious.

As the western country that has embraced CCTV technology the most thoroughly (by far), surely you must see the parallels between Orwell's work and the increasingly monitored state you live in. The real question at the core of my post is where will you Brits draw the line between saftey and privacy/liberty/freedom. Thus far it does not appear that you have even come close to it yet (as long as the gov can convince you it makes you safer).

It's not like we get sent to Room 101 or whatever and have rats chew on our faces if we speak out. CCTV is something that the majority of British citizens feel is neccessary for public safety and to reduce crime in general, and it works.

If they came up with something like mandatory RFID tags to track everyone's whereabouts, you would see a huge outcry and such a thing would thankfully never come to pass. In fact, recently (i.e. for the last couple of years) the government has tried to issue mandatory ID cards, but they have gotten nowhere (even with the recent terrorism, which I might add has allowed your government to stamp on many civil liberties) due to horrible public opinion of such things and they never will get anywhere with it.

It's not like we're being subjugated and having all our rights taken away, but when you live in a society where people can be beaten, raped, and killed without anybody so much as batting and eye, never mind stopping to help, some measures like CCTV go a long way to curbing the problem of anti-social behaviour.

 

[everman]

I wouldn't have a problem with it. What I don't like are red light cameras, they actually seem to make people drive more erraticly because they're so paranoid about them and are just there to make the city money. We don't have speed cameras around here but I feel the same way about them. They both just seem like ways for the gov to make easy money under the guise of public safety.

The CCTV cameras around England can be good, but hope that the gov doesn't figure out another way to rip off the citizens for more money.

 

[0roo0roo]

heh i watched a disturbing documentary called britains yobs. kids run amuck. it wasn't the only one on bbc that showed this, it seems like the kids show no fear. i guess because unlike in the us, they pretty much know most people won't be carrying a gun. lowers the threshold for bad behavior i guess.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: royaldank
I've walked in downtown London at 3:00am a couple miles to my brothers apartment. I had no problems and never felt that I was in danger. I don't think I'd be walking in any of the major cities here at 3:00am and not feel at least a little unconfortable.

Umm I've been in new york city drunk off my ass as late as 6am with no isses.

I'll keep my civil rights, thank you very much. Brits can shove tracking beacons deep in their respective rectums for all I care... that kind stuff will NEVER fly here.

 

[CanOWorms]

The peasants must be watched to be controlled by the Queen.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Aharami
if Brits dont have a problem with it, who the hell are we to complain about it?

Hey, wait a second- It's because of our defiance of the Brits that we have independence and freedom in the first place! Without our "live free or die" attitude, we wouldn't have a country where we live freely.

I wouldn't exactly say that your rationale is logical.

 

[Goosemaster]

camera operator #568:

"Hey you there! Stop that meandering and get to school!

Hey! What the devil do you think you are doing! This is the property of her majesties....

Hey now! Put me down dammnit!

Blimie! I'm going to get fired over this am I not?

camera operator #788 adressing camera operator #219:


ey Jim, look at ole' John ovber dare getting his peepers all twisted....betcah hi'll get a talkin' to by de brass today...I'll tape if or ya

[/quote]

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: conehead433
Say what you want, but after some recent subway, bus bombings in London they used camera footage and were able to track down all of the perpetrators. In the US they would still be running free.

In the US they use suicide bombers who don't care if they've been seen.

Hell, in 9/11, they have pictures of the perpetrators, but that didn't make a bit of difference after the fact.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Aharami
if Brits dont have a problem with it, who the hell are we to complain about it?

Hey, wait a second- It's because of our defiance of the Brits that we have independence and freedom in the first place! Without our "live free or die" attitude, we wouldn't have a country where we live freely.

I wouldn't exactly say that your rationale is logical.

So because the colonies broke away from the United Kingdom means you can tell us what to do? I could easily say that since you want nothing to do with the UK then you should keep your effing nose out of our business, but the UK today is not even remotely anything like it was two hundred years ago.

It's your kind of jingoist attitude that gives people the stereotype of Americans being loud-mouthed idiots, and while I don't hold that opinion, you sir are not a credit to your nationality whatsoever. As for the "without our "live free or die attitude", we wouldn't have a country where we live freely" comment, are you saying that my country is not a free country? Last time I checked, my country was democratic, just like yours.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: Ulfhednar
The fact is that when people are being robbed or attacked, it's better to know that someone with a police radio is watching you and alerting a local police car, instead of gambling that a member of the public might just step in and help you, because frankly people rarely do these days, and that's why CCTV is so common here in the first place.

I don't understand why being aided by a member of the public even comes into consideration. Engaging an assailant (likely armed or with a physical advantage) while unarmed or facing a possible weapons charge on behalf of a stranger crosses the line into idiotic altruism.

I think the addition of interactivity to the cameras will serve as a deterrent. However, will crime be encouraged by the absence of a voice on the loudspeaker, since that means that the camera is not being actively watched? Maybe they should add computer software to randomly play recorded clips on unmonitored cameras based on motion detection.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: Flatscan
I don't understand why being aided by a member of the public even comes into consideration. Engaging an assailant (likely armed or with a physical advantage) while unarmed or facing a possible weapons charge on behalf of a stranger crosses the line into idiotic altruism.

Most attacks here are actually committed by unarmed youths, usually in groups, and someone even approaching the scene of the crime can be enough to frighten them off. Unfortunately, nobody gives a toss, so I am glad that I have a CCTV operator with a police radio watching my back when I am in the city centre.

For more serious crimes such as attempted or successful murder or rape, CCTV can at least be used to identify the attacker.

Originally posted by: Flatscan
I think the addition of interactivity to the cameras will serve as a deterrent. However, will crime be encouraged by the absence of a voice on the loudspeaker, since that means that the camera is not being actively watched? Maybe they should add computer software to randomly play recorded clips on unmonitored cameras based on motion detection.

Personally, I don't think adding a loudspeaker to CCTV cameras will do much at all unless someone is caught dropping litter. I am just glad that the CCTV system is there, and I'm not sure what you mean by the camera "not being actively watched," but all CCTV feeds are actively watched (by a staff of fifteen IIRC.)

Edit: W00t, 500 posts.

 

[sandorski]

Monitoring Public streets doesn't seem that extreme. That's what cops do already, except they can't be everywhere all the time. These cameras kinda provide an efficient means to focus manpower where needed when needed.

Kinda torn on it though. It's not extremely intrusive, but it is intrusive to an extent for sure. Adding a listening capacity would certainly be over the line IMO, but visual alone seems ok'ish.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: SampSon
It's the UK, who cares?

I would dig having that job of yelling at people I see on camera.

there is a world outside of the USA