"The turn of Hamas"

[Czar]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=311207&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

The turn of Hamas

By Gideon Samet



We'll have to wait and see if Hamas decides by the
weekend to agree to a cease-fire. The correct
guess right now appears to be that it will. Then,
we'll have to wait and see how long the halt in
the attacks lasts and what the extremist
Palestinians do without a state and the Israeli
radicals - some acting in the name of the state -
do to foul the entire process.




Till then, the militant minority
organizations on the other side
now have an unusual opportunity
to decide if the political
initiatives will be given a
chance or not. It's their turn
to behave with reason and
wisdom. This, therefore, is a
call, from a modest corner, to
Hamas and its associates, to do

We'll have to wait and see if Hamas decides by
the weekend to agree to a cease-fire. The
correct guess right now appears to be that it
will. Then, we'll have to wait and see how long
the halt in the attacks lasts and what the
extremist Palestinians do without a state and
the Israeli radicals - some acting in the name
of the state - do to foul the entire process.

Till then, the militant minority organizations
on the other side now have an unusual
opportunity to decide if the political
initiatives will be given a chance or not. It's
their turn to behave with reason and wisdom.
This, therefore, is a call, from a modest
corner, to Hamas and its associates, to do the
right thing.

There's also much cause for concern about the
behavior on the Israeli side. Within the huge
brainwash in which Israelis have been caught up
for a long time, not enough has been said about
the ongoing and consistent political blurring
and deceit on the part of the Ariel Sharon
government.

It did everything it could to delay the road
map. At first, it didn't approve it. Then, it
got some form of American understanding for
numerous comments that are designed to impede
it. It continued with assassinations and
appeared to intensify them whenever there
seemed to be signs of movement on the other
side.

The ingenuous reasoning was that this is how
Sharon-Mofaz-Ya'alon-Halutz want to help Abu
Mazen, while he fights Ali Baba and thousands
of thieves. The explanation was that every
helicopter that descends on a victim in the
territories brings the opposition groups closer
to an agreement on a cease-fire. The
assassinations also result in revenge-killings
against us? The answer - difficult to disprove
until there is a cease-fire: Had we not taken
them out, they would have killed more
Israelis.

Aside from this, Sharon behaved very strangely
during the faux-evacuation of the outposts. An
army, which knows how to prevent comings and
goings from entire Palestinian cities, was
unable to block the flow of violent
demonstrators against one fake outpost - one of
the 60 established during the current Sharon
government and that the road map demanded be
removed by last month. While 1,000 policemen
were mobilized to arrest a number of the
suspects from the Israeli Islamic Movement, an
apparently insufficient - or not determined
enough - force stuttered at preventing the
rejectionist nuisance on the part of the
settlers.

And how are we supposed to understand the
establishment of the contra-outposts, speedily
constructed under the noses and right in the
faces of the entire world and its sister. In
the midst of the storm, the settlers even
showed sarcastic humor: They called the new
outpost alongside the dismantled Mitzpeh
Yitzhar, Ariel Hill, in honor of the father of
the illegal settlements.

On Monday, the Rabbinical Union - one of the
local counterparts of Palestinian opposition
groups - issued its own determined public
statement. Some 500 rabbis from the Union for
the People of Israel and the Land of Israel
declared the road map "a direct contradiction
of the halakha." What's the difference between
this and a declaration (which hasn't been
voiced) by hundreds of Palestinian mullahs in
favor of the right of return and the right of
their people to the entire land?

But precisely because of these eye-for-an-eye
equals a tooth-for-a-tooth moves, a decision in
favor of a lengthy hudna now carries special
weight. It will present a challenge to the
Israeli rejectionists; and will also be a slap
in the face to the knight of Palestinian
prevarication, Yasser Arafat, who is doing all
he can to undermine Abu Mazen, to prevent any
progress as long as he is imprisoned in the
rubble cage of the Muqata.

With the most preliminary stages of the road map
going like this, one can only imagine what lies
ahead. It will look bad, frustrating, hopeless,
saturated with mutual trickery.

The minutes that Haaretz reporter Arnon Regular
brought to the newspaper yesterday from the
meeting in Gaza between Abu Mazen and the heads
of the rejectionist organizations included some
very instructive details. But one special
statement was a scoop on the intentions of
President George W. Bush. According to Abu
Mazen, Bush said that if he doesn't get any
help in solving the Middle East problem soon,
the U.S. elections will come around and "I'll
be forced to concentrate on them."

Bush has never before said as such so
explicitly. It would be best to believe him
that it will happen, to the detriment of both
sides, if the Palestinian organizations don't
approve the cease-fire in the coming days, and
if Israel tries to disrupt the move after it is
approved.

 

[Alistar7]

ask yourself why the rest of the international community wants Bush to solely be at the forefront of this effort even though it has wide support from "3" other backers, one of which being the UN....

But I thought the rest of the world thought he was a horrible diplomat......

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
ask yourself why the rest of the international community wants Bush to solely be at the forefront of this effort even though it has wide support from "3" other backers, one of which being the UN....

But I thought the rest of the world thought he was a horrible diplomat......

Because Israel won't listen to anyone but the United States. We are the only country that has any influence with Israel..and vice a versa.

 

[Alistar7]

One country shouldn't have that power, it should only be held and used by the UN....

or so some said months ago when they were trying to protect their sugar daddy Saddam, funny how hypocritical some can be, and how few will even notice apparently....

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
One country shouldn't have that power, it should only be held and used by the UN....

or so some said months ago when they were trying to protect their sugar daddy Saddam, funny how hypocritical some can be, and how few will even notice apparently....

Could you please explain yourself. What power are you talking about? I am not sure what you are intending to say.


I also think the claims of the French, Germans, and Russians trying to protect the Hussein regime for economic reasons is weak at best. All of those countries do FAR FAR more trade with the US. It would be far more beneficial for them economically to stay on our administrations good side if you are talking straight economics.

 

[Alistar7]

03-05-2003
Who Benefits From Saddam's Regime
-- Sources


France
According to the CIA World Factbook, France controls over 22.5 percent of Iraq?s imports.[1] French total trade with Iraq under the oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since 1996, according to the United Nations.[2] In 2001 France became Iraq?s largest European trading partner.
Roughly 60 French companies do an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with Baghdad annually under the U.N. oil-for-food program.[3]
France?s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil.[4]
Total Fina Elf also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq?s Nahr Umar field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country?s reserves.[5]
France?s Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76 million contract to rehabilitate Iraq?s telephone system.[6]
From 1981 to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq?s arms imports.[7]
Germany
Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[8]
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany?s ?firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.? It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[9]
During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[10]
In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[11]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein?s Al Fao Supercannon project.[12]
Russia
According to the CIA World Factbook, Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq?s annual imports.[13] Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia?s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.[14]
According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.[15]
Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980?1988 Iran?Iraq war.
Russia?s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.[16]
In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian?Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.[17]
In April 2001, Russia?s Zaruezhneft company received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion.
A future $40 billion Iraqi?Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[18] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.[19]
Russia?s Gazprom company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.[20]
The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[21]
China
According to the CIA World Factbook, China controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq?s annual imports.[22]
China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[23]
In recent years, the Chinese Aero-Technology Import?Export Company (CATIC) has been contracted to sell ?meteorological satellite? and ?surface observation? equipment to Iraq. This contract was approved by the U.N. oil-for-food program.[24]
CATIC also won approval from the U.N. in July 2000 to sell $2 million worth of fiber optic cables. This and similar contracts approved were disguised as telecommunications gear. These cables can be used for secure data and communications links between national command and control centers and long-range search radar, targeting radar, and missile-launch units, according to U.S. officials. In addition, China National Electric Wire & Cable and China National Technical Import Telecommunications Equipment Company are believed to have sold Iraq $6 million and $15.5 million worth of communications equipment and other unspecified supplies, respectively.[25]
According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18 percent of Iraq?s weapons imports.[26]


Those are the deals above the book, and don't count the billions promised in Oil. What about the modern, French, German, Russian, and Chineese modern weapons we found, or the luxury French goods that were found in great quantity in everyone of Saddam's palaces? You do realize Saddam was allowed to choose which bank admin'ed the funds under the food for oil program and was able to direct about 40% of the money? The bank he chose to hold the billions is in France, France and Russia got the majority of the money he had control over from 1996-2000, about the same time they began pushing for an end to sanctions, ever after inspectors were kicked out by Saddam. From 2000-2003 the majority of that money went to Syria and Egypt, his "old friends

" in an effort to buy regional support, worked with Syria. In case you did not know France has been the leading exporter of Iraqi oil for 75 years. I'm sorry my "claims" were so "weak", hopefully the facts will open your mind a bit....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[2]Jon Talton, ?French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle?, The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003.

[3]Jon Talton, ?French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle,? The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003.

[4]Kenneth Katzman, Iraq: Oil-for-Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade, Congressional Research Service, September 26, 2002.

[5]Kenneth Katzman, Iraq: Oil-for-Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade, Congressional Research Service, September 26, 2002.

[6]Evelyn Iritani, ?Hussein?s Government Signs Lucrative Contracts, Especially with Nations that Oppose the U.S. Led Effort to Oust the Regime,? The Los Angeles Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, November 11, 2002.

[7]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

[8]David R. Sands, ?France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,? The Washington Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, February 20, 2003.

[9]David R. Sands, ?France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,? The Washington Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, February 20, 2003.

[10]?Africa Analysis?Trade Points Way to Peace?, The Financial Verdana,Arial,Helvetica: Asia Africa Intelligence Wire, November 19, 2002.

[11]Faye Bowers, ?Driving Forces in War-Wary Nations: The Stances of France, Germany, Russia and China Are Colored by Economic and National Interests,? Christian Science Monitor, February 25, 2003.

[12]?Helping Saddam Rearm,? The Wall Street Journal, October 11, 2002.

[13]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[14]Testimony provided by Ariel Cohen to the House International Relations Committee, ?Russia and the Axis of Evil: Money, Ambition and U.S. Interests,? February 26, 2003.

[15]Nelli Sharushkina, ?Russia Plays the Field in Iraq?Mixed Signals Worry Baghdad,? Energy Intelligence Briefing, February 5, 2003.

[16]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, ?In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,? The Washington Post, September 15, 2002.

[17]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, ?In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,? The Washington Post, September 15, 2002.

[18]Scott Peterson, ?Russia?s Newest Tie to Iraq: Moscow Is Set to Sign a $40 billion Economic Pact with Baghdad Next Month,? Christian Science Monitor, August 20, 2002.

[19]?Mideast Tensions to Delay Iraq Iraqi?Russian Signing,? Energy Compass, April 19, 2002.

[20]Dmitry Zhdannikov, ?Russian?s Grim About Working Under Saddam,? The Houston Chronicle, April 14, 2002.

[21]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

[22]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[23]Trish Saywell, ?Oil: The Danger of Deals with Iraq,? Far Eastern Economic Review, March 6, 2003.

[24]Kenneth R. Timmerman, ?Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,? Insight on the News, March 4, 2003.

[25]Kenneth R. Timmerman, ?Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,? Insight on the News, March 4, 2003.

[26]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

 

[Alistar7]

I thought no country should act alone? Why is the UN not at the forefront of the effort? Why is France not demanding to have an equal say in the matter?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
I thought no country should act alone? Why is the UN not at the forefront of the effort? Why is France not demanding to have an equal say in the matter?

Because the US and Israel have essentially said FU to the UN and the international community as a whole. Israel has always done this and the US has covered thier asses anytime that that they have.


Beause of the very simple fact that the US is Israels largest financer/protecter/advocate/etc. Any time any of those other countries attempt to influence the Israelis they are either ignored by the israelis or essentially called anti-semites.

The UN and the EU are heavily involved in this process. For the two years that the Bush administration decided to back burner the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians it was the EU, and the UN that were trying to restart negotiations with envoys arriving every day and billions of dollars in aid money. Didn't work, because Israel knows that the only nation they have to be accountable to is the US and so do the Palestinians.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
03-05-2003
Who Benefits From Saddam's Regime
-- Sources


France
According to the CIA World Factbook, France controls over 22.5 percent of Iraq?s imports.[1] French total trade with Iraq under the oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since 1996, according to the United Nations.[2] In 2001 France became Iraq?s largest European trading partner.
Roughly 60 French companies do an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with Baghdad annually under the U.N. oil-for-food program.[3]
France?s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil.[4]
Total Fina Elf also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq?s Nahr Umar field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country?s reserves.[5]
France?s Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76 million contract to rehabilitate Iraq?s telephone system.[6]
From 1981 to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq?s arms imports.[7]
Germany
Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[8]
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany?s ?firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.? It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[9]
During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[10]
In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[11]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein?s Al Fao Supercannon project.[12]
Russia
According to the CIA World Factbook, Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq?s annual imports.[13] Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia?s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.[14]
According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.[15]
Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980?1988 Iran?Iraq war.
Russia?s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.[16]
In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian?Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.[17]
In April 2001, Russia?s Zaruezhneft company received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion.
A future $40 billion Iraqi?Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[18] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.[19]
Russia?s Gazprom company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.[20]
The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[21]
China
According to the CIA World Factbook, China controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq?s annual imports.[22]
China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[23]
In recent years, the Chinese Aero-Technology Import?Export Company (CATIC) has been contracted to sell ?meteorological satellite? and ?surface observation? equipment to Iraq. This contract was approved by the U.N. oil-for-food program.[24]
CATIC also won approval from the U.N. in July 2000 to sell $2 million worth of fiber optic cables. This and similar contracts approved were disguised as telecommunications gear. These cables can be used for secure data and communications links between national command and control centers and long-range search radar, targeting radar, and missile-launch units, according to U.S. officials. In addition, China National Electric Wire & Cable and China National Technical Import Telecommunications Equipment Company are believed to have sold Iraq $6 million and $15.5 million worth of communications equipment and other unspecified supplies, respectively.[25]
According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18 percent of Iraq?s weapons imports.[26]


Those are the deals above the book, and don't count the billions promised in Oil. What about the modern, French, German, Russian, and Chineese modern weapons we found, or the luxury French goods that were found in great quantity in everyone of Saddam's palaces? You do realize Saddam was allowed to choose which bank admin'ed the funds under the food for oil program and was able to direct about 40% of the money? The bank he chose to hold the billions is in France, France and Russia got the majority of the money he had control over from 1996-2000, about the same time they began pushing for an end to sanctions, ever after inspectors were kicked out by Saddam. From 2000-2003 the majority of that money went to Syria and Egypt, his "old friends

" in an effort to buy regional support, worked with Syria. In case you did not know France has been the leading exporter of Iraqi oil for 75 years. I'm sorry my "claims" were so "weak", hopefully the facts will open your mind a bit....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[2]Jon Talton, ?French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle?, The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003.

[3]Jon Talton, ?French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle,? The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003.

[4]Kenneth Katzman, Iraq: Oil-for-Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade, Congressional Research Service, September 26, 2002.

[5]Kenneth Katzman, Iraq: Oil-for-Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade, Congressional Research Service, September 26, 2002.

[6]Evelyn Iritani, ?Hussein?s Government Signs Lucrative Contracts, Especially with Nations that Oppose the U.S. Led Effort to Oust the Regime,? The Los Angeles Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, November 11, 2002.

[7]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

[8]David R. Sands, ?France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,? The Washington Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, February 20, 2003.

[9]David R. Sands, ?France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,? The Washington Verdana,Arial,Helvetica, February 20, 2003.

[10]?Africa Analysis?Trade Points Way to Peace?, The Financial Verdana,Arial,Helvetica: Asia Africa Intelligence Wire, November 19, 2002.

[11]Faye Bowers, ?Driving Forces in War-Wary Nations: The Stances of France, Germany, Russia and China Are Colored by Economic and National Interests,? Christian Science Monitor, February 25, 2003.

[12]?Helping Saddam Rearm,? The Wall Street Journal, October 11, 2002.

[13]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[14]Testimony provided by Ariel Cohen to the House International Relations Committee, ?Russia and the Axis of Evil: Money, Ambition and U.S. Interests,? February 26, 2003.

[15]Nelli Sharushkina, ?Russia Plays the Field in Iraq?Mixed Signals Worry Baghdad,? Energy Intelligence Briefing, February 5, 2003.

[16]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, ?In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,? The Washington Post, September 15, 2002.

[17]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, ?In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,? The Washington Post, September 15, 2002.

[18]Scott Peterson, ?Russia?s Newest Tie to Iraq: Moscow Is Set to Sign a $40 billion Economic Pact with Baghdad Next Month,? Christian Science Monitor, August 20, 2002.

[19]?Mideast Tensions to Delay Iraq Iraqi?Russian Signing,? Energy Compass, April 19, 2002.

[20]Dmitry Zhdannikov, ?Russian?s Grim About Working Under Saddam,? The Houston Chronicle, April 14, 2002.

[21]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

[22]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook.

[23]Trish Saywell, ?Oil: The Danger of Deals with Iraq,? Far Eastern Economic Review, March 6, 2003.

[24]Kenneth R. Timmerman, ?Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,? Insight on the News, March 4, 2003.

[25]Kenneth R. Timmerman, ?Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,? Insight on the News, March 4, 2003.

[26]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), ?Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981?2001,? at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf.

The numbers DO NOT BACK UP THE ECONOMIC MOTIVATION ARGUMENT.

Trade balance with US for 2003 up until April:
China -34,121.80
Russia -2,050.40
Germany -11,989.30

(in Millions of US Dollars)


The problem is the French, Chinese, Russians etc. benefit far more from trade with us that any of thier contracts with the former Iraqi government.

France has a 3.3 billion dollar positive balance of trade with the US JUST UP TO APRIL OF THIS YEAR. This dwarfs any contracts with Iraq. Similar disparities exist with the other nations.

I don't see the economic incentive to piss of your largest and most lucrative trading partner for the comparativley minor $3.1 Billion SINCE 1996.



From [url]www.census.gov: US Trade Balance with France[/url]

 

[Alistar7]

that doesnt show how much debt was owed to them either, and only includes what was publicly known. The 3.1 billion you are talking about is only the food for oil program BTW.
What are the numbers for the arms deals alone, not provided, much of Saddams trade would not show up on that list.....

Can you suggest any other reason they opposed? Not one would stand up and say they believed there were no WMD, even Blix admitted most intelligence agencies in the world all felt Saddam still had WMD. Why is it that after so much WMD was found after 1996 when the money starting flowing into those countries they had no problem in calling for an end to sanctions, right in the face of balatant violations that never ceased.
They found WMD equipment in Feb. of 2003 that was destroyed under UN supervision in 1991 but had been dug-up and modified for a proscribed missille program.
Why did they want them to end?

"Russia?s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. "

"A future $40 billion Iraqi?Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[18] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions"


France?s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil.
Total Fina Elf also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq?s Nahr Umar field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country?s reserves. (more than a quarter of the wrold second largest reserve on the line there)

China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[23]

The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[21]

Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany?s ?firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.? It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein?s Al Fao Supercannon project.
(We would like to know about the GPS systems too please, obviously post 1991.)

We are talking about hunbdreds of billions of dollars and control over the worlds 2nd largest reserves besides any trade mentioned before. One other factor in France's motives is their opposing policy towards the ME, they are unabashedly pro-Palestine, have a large vocal muslim population, go to Paris and watch Jews get beat in the street, it's their newest offering to the world. Yes, I know you were wondering, most of Hama's money gets funneled through French banks.....


notice you do not have your profile enbaled, why is that? What part of the earth do you call home?

 

[Czar]

why cant you people stay on topic!

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
that doesnt show how much debt was owed to them either, and only includes what was publicly known. The 3.1 billion you are talking about is only the food for oil program BTW.
What are the numbers for the arms deals alone, not provided, much of Saddams trade would not show up on that list.....

Can you suggest any other reason they opposed? Not one would stand up and say they believed there were no WMD, even Blix admitted most intelligence agencies in the world all felt Saddam still had WMD. Why is it that after so much WMD was found after 1996 when the money starting flowing into those countries they had no problem in calling for an end to sanctions, right in the face of balatant violations that never ceased.
They found WMD equipment in Feb. of 2003 that was destroyed under UN supervision in 1991 but had been dug-up and modified for a proscribed missille program.
Why did they want them to end?

"Russia?s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. "

"A future $40 billion Iraqi?Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[18] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions"


France?s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil.
Total Fina Elf also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq?s Nahr Umar field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country?s reserves. (more than a quarter of the wrold second largest reserve on the line there)

China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[23]

The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[21]

Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany?s ?firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.? It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein?s Al Fao Supercannon project.
(We would like to know about the GPS systems too please, obviously post 1991.)

We are talking about hunbdreds of billions of dollars and control over the worlds 2nd largest reserves besides any trade mentioned before. One other factor in France's motives is their opposing policy towards the ME, they are unabashedly pro-Palestine, have a large vocal muslim population, go to Paris and watch Jews get beat in the street, it's their newest offering to the world. Yes, I know you were wondering, most of Hama's money gets funneled through French banks.....


notice you do not have your profile enbaled, why is that? What part of the earth do you call home?

I can suggest plenty of reasons why they opposed.

1. They didn't feel the threat rose to the level of requiring massive military action, and the subsequent requirement for the occupation and re-building of a non-western nation.

2. They wanted the United Nations weapons inspectors to verify that a threat did exist and attempt to eliminate it by non-violent means.

3. They were worried about the potential backlash due to an invasion of Iraq and subsequent affect on relations between the Arab/Muslim world and the affect on international terrorism.

4. They wanted to attempt to preserve the unity and power of the post WWII international system by discouraging military action without the broad consensus of th International community.

5. They wanted to limit the hegemonic use of American power in the face of any lack of a traditional counterweight such as used to be posed by the Soviet Union.

it goes on and on. Of course if you want to extrapolate "hundreds of billions" of dollars in economic gain from potential contracts, and vague assertations of shady dealings go ahead. You can doggedly hold on to that bone if you so desire. I personally do not see any indication that in any realistic scenario that the economic benefits of a strong partnership with the US would outweigh any relationship with Iraq.

And why does it make a difference where I am from? D.C. Metro Area BTW.

We are unabashadly pro-Israeli. What exactly have we gotten out of that btw? Did we go to war to further the Israeli cause? We have a lot of Jews living in the US and they have a big lobby. Is that a bad thing, is that any worse than the Muslim lobby in France lobbying for the rights of Palestinians?

BTW: what are you referring to here?

"They found WMD equipment in Feb. of 2003 that was destroyed under UN supervision in 1991 but had been dug-up and modified for a proscribed missille program. "

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Czar
why cant you people stay on topic!

sorry, answered a direct question posed to me....

 

[Alistar7]

Do we allow Palestinians to be beaten in the streets with little punishment for the offenders?

1. They didn't feel the threat rose to the level of requiring massive military action, and the subsequent requirement for the occupation and re-building of a non-western nation.

Please provide a direct link where any representative on the opposing members who accepted Blair's challenge to publicly state they beleived Saddam had no WMD or ties to terrorists.

2. They wanted the United Nations weapons inspectors to verify that a threat did exist and attempt to eliminate it by non-violent means.

They wanted the UN to stop sanctions and inspections beginning in 1996, over 275 tons of precursor chemicals alone were found and destroyed after 1997. They did not care abou the violent means the Iraqi people were subjected to by Saddam, the 10,000 a month dying under sanctions due to neglect.

3. They were worried about the potential backlash due to an invasion of Iraq and subsequent affect on relations between the Arab/Muslim world and the affect on international terrorism.

Yet they have no problem funneling money for Hamas, maybe they only like to support their "team".

4. They wanted to attempt to preserve the unity and power of the post WWII international system by discouraging military action without the broad consensus of th International community.

What a joke, how many operations/campaigns have they conducted in Africa in their former colonies since the end of WW2 without UN approval? has any other nation even asked the UN to engage in war other than the US? I can give you a link which describes how this "need" for an international consensus was created, it was due to US actions in the past with Bosnia and Afghanistan.

BTW: what are you referring to here?

"They found WMD equipment in Feb. of 2003 that was destroyed under UN supervision in 1991 but had been dug-up and modified for a proscribed missille program. "

Thirteenth quarterly report of the Executive Chairman of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission in accordance with paragraph 12 of Security Council resolution 1284 (1999)
30 May 2003United Nations Security Council

118. During an inspection on 7 January 2003 of the Al Mamoun site, UNMOVIC
inspectors observed two large propellant casting chambers. Iraq declared that those
casting chambers had originally been acquired for the Badr 2000 project. That was a
proscribed project, and although UNSCOM had supervised the destruction of the
two casting chambers in 1991 Iraq had managed to refurbish them for use in their
current solid propellant missile projects.

that's what I was talking about, thought that was the Feb. find, my bad, that was Jan. 2003.....

 

[Alistar7]

United Nations Watch aims to promote the balanced, fair, and non-discriminatory application of the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, and to encourage respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, gender, culture, language, or religion.

Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, has written the following of UN Watch: "I deeply appreciate the valuable work performed by UN Watch. I believe that informed and independent evaluation of the United Nations? activities will prove a vital source as we seek to adapt the Organization to the needs of a changing world. I can promise you that I will pay close attention to your observations and views in the years ahead."

The world?s reluctance to act in the face of continuing military aggression in Kosovo prompts a consideration of the evolution in the legitimacy of the use of force.

George Bush's decision to liberate Kuwait in line with Security Council authorization probably helped to secure the legitimacy of Operation Desert Storm. Bush's tactics prevented a potentially devastating rift between Arab and non-Arab nations.

Using force only when sanctioned by the international system ? as represented by the Security Council ? would be ideal, if adhered to by all. Sadly, aggressors are largely impervious to the force of world opinion. Often, even economic sanctions fail to alter dictators? behavior, as the brunt of the pain is transferred to domestic populations for whom the aggressor shows little respect.

What?s more, the gradual delegitimation of the use of force in the absence of Security Council approval, a paradigm shift that started with Desert Storm , now hampers efforts to resolve humanitarian tragedies. No side in Kosovo has completely clean hands. But the inability of Europeans or NATO to stop Milosevic shows how one ruthless individual can use the Western liberal ethic to stymie efforts to stop him.

Of course since that was written we know the US stepped in again to save Europe and got the Dayton Accords signed, which paved the way for UN aprroval of force ( the very next day ) to end the conflict. This created the "need" for UN approval, so the rest of the world should match our effort before they criticize....

 

[Alistar7]

Claims and evaluations of Iraq's proscribed weapons


"It is not about Iraq's overall compliance with that resolution or subsequent resolutions on Iraq, including SCR 1441 (2002). For example, it does not attempt to analyse the extent of Iraq's obstruction of inspectors from UNSCOM, UNMOVIC or IAEA. It is instead a presentation of what is actually known about the weapons and programmes themselves. For the UN inspectors currently in Iraq, discovering what is unknown about the history and present status of these items is the task at hand. Inspectors must engage with the possibility of Iraq's retention or development of non-conventional weapons, and report to the Security Council on this basis. However, a set of evaluations can also be made of the likelihood of Iraq's non-conventional weapons programmes, given the material available. No overall judgements are made in this reference file, but material is presented that should allow a more well informed opinion to be reached."






"UNSCOM supervised the destruction of more than 40,000 chemical munitions, nearly 500,000 liters of chemical agents, 1.8 million liters of chemical precursors, and seven different types of delivery systems, including ballistic missile warheads.
More than 10 years after the Gulf war, gaps in Iraqi accounting and current production capabilities strongly suggest that Iraq maintains a stockpile of chemical agents, probably VX,[3] sarin, cyclosarin,[4] and mustard.


Iraq probably has concealed precursors, production equipment, documentation, and other items necessary for continuing its CW effort. Baghdad never supplied adequate evidence to support its claims that it destroyed all of its CW agents and munitions. Thousands of tons of chemical precursors and tens of thousands of unfilled munitions, including Scud-variant missile warheads, remain unaccounted for.

UNSCOM discovered a document at Iraqi Air Force headquarters in July 1998 showing that Iraq overstated by at least 6,000 the number of chemical bombs it told the UN it had used during the Iran-Iraq War?bombs that remain are unaccounted for.

Iraq has not accounted for 15,000 artillery rockets that in the past were its preferred means for delivering nerve agents, nor has it accounted for about 550 artillery shells filled with mustard agent.

Those are some of the unaccountef for WMD the UN wanted to keep inspections looking for, any ideas where they are?