The truth behind ISP's: Stop blaming the wrong people

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
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People are always eager to say "MY ISP SUCKS- I'M GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE." What most people don't realize is that changing providers may give you the exact same connection from the exact same location- just with a different brand on it. If the underlying problem was never resolved, you're also going to have the exact same problems.

This is most prevalent with dial-up connections. If you choose (or are stuck) using dial-up, and you experience things like your call dropping or poor connection speeds, the first thing a consumer does is blame the ISP. In reality, there is little an ISP's technical support can do to fix this situation because it has to do with phone line quality between point A and point B. When a customer gets fed up and goes to another provider, that person often sees the exact same issue because:

a. The customer is dialing into the same equipment being leased by another ISP
b. The customer's phone line issue still exists

These customers then wander around to different dial-up providers like zombies looking for brains---some go through as many as 10-12 a year trying to find a provider that doesn't drop them. Since the underlying cause is not being repaired, their search will never end.

DSL is another example of this. If there is an line issue with the DSL signal traveling from the phone company central office to a customer's home, the service is going to be awful. Likewise if the signal has to travel too far (over 15000ft in circuit length starts to get iffy), or if there is an issue with the internal wiring at the residence. Unlike dial-up, many of these types of problems can be detected and/or corrected. However, the typical consumer is unwilling to make much of an effort to repair or resolve any issues. Therefore they cancel their service, thinking "someone that KNOWS what they're doing will be my savior!" Then, sadly, they experience the same issues all over again because DSL all comes from the same place- no matter who delivers it.

Cable is in a unique situation in that the cable company is usually the sole provider in an area, and they control all aspects of their network- from their NOC all the way to the box on your TV. If the customer has an issue, it is repaired because their type of network allows them to tell where the problem lies very accurately . However, many customers like to make modifications, such as splitting off their cable with DIY connections inside the home. This wrecks havoc with the cable modem signal, and then they are shocked when most cable companies will charge the customer for this type of repair. This prompts a cancellation because of "poor service"...when in reality it's an problem of their own doing.

Moral of the story: An ISP is an ISP. They deliver the service, most do it very well, and there's not a lot of difference between them. The average consumer needs to switch their thinking of receiving Internet service from "why did you single me out to screw up my service" to "why am I not receiving your service." Internet service can be compared to receiving a radio station- if you can't get a particular station, you don't call the station and tell them how awful they are- you do some troubleshooting to make the signal stronger (move the antenna, try it in another room, etc). The signal is being broadcast- you need to figure out why you're not getting it. Once the consumer changes their mindset to one of empowerment, both sides of the fence will be much happier.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
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May give you the same problems. May not.
Depends on where the problem lies, obviously, and often it can be a fault at your house, or it can be that the ISP has a poor back end, in which case switching might help.

Just because sometimes there are problems which aren't the ISP's fault doesn't mean there aren't problems which are.

Had DSL in one place, which was 6mbit or so, no ping issues etc.
Switched to another provider, speeds dropped to being anything from ~2mbit to ~6mbit, and pings were all over the place depending on time of day and which of their servers I got routed to. That was an ISP issue, because the ISP had a shoddily setup backhaul where everyone was put on a handful of servers and they got clogged up.
The way to fix pings was constantly try reconnecting until a lightly loaded one was found.

Now I'm in a house where the max speed is 512kbit down and 256kbit up, which is apparently because the line to the house (on the telco's part) is poor, and the ISP (who just leases the line) can't really do much about that.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
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Originally posted by: Lonyo
May give you the same problems. May not.
Depends on where the problem lies, obviously, and often it can be a fault at your house, or it can be that the ISP has a poor back end, in which case switching might help.

Just because sometimes there are problems which aren't the ISP's fault doesn't mean there aren't problems which are.

Had DSL in one place, which was 6mbit or so, no ping issues etc.
Switched to another provider, speeds dropped to being anything from ~2mbit to ~6mbit, and pings were all over the place depending on time of day and which of their servers I got routed to. That was an ISP issue, because the ISP had a shoddily setup backhaul where everyone was put on a handful of servers and they got clogged up.
The way to fix pings was constantly try reconnecting until a lightly loaded one was found.

Now I'm in a house where the max speed is 512kbit down and 256kbit up, which is apparently because the line to the house (on the telco's part) is poor, and the ISP (who just leases the line) can't really do much about that.

The "back end" as you put it is not a common issue. That would be an example of an ISP issue and is something your ISP can resolve. If you look at churn statisitics for ISPs, the most common cause of cancellation after billing is "poor connection." From the statistics we see, nearly all of these are caused by customer wiring issues (this is for DSL or dial-up, we don't offer cable so I can't see their stats).

So, yes, in rare cases, the ISP can be at fault, but as stated those issues are usually fixable.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
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I'd say house issues should be hammered out when you jump ship and during the installation of the next brands equipment. If I go from 1 modem ISP to another, the new place should schedule to stop by and insure everything is in working order to utilize their services. Maybe that's expecting too much or maybe it's wishful thinking, but it would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it? Granted, they can't trace every line in your house, they can trace out a new line and test that one, then based on the results narrow the issue down.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
The big issues I have had with ISPs are: billing errors, poor customer service, long & unexplained outages and inexperienced on-site techs.

As for the connection at large, well, most people don't realize your ISP has zero to do with someone's crappy web server you are requesting information from. They don't understand your IPS sent your request to that web server very quickly but it's taking its time on sending any data back.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Sure, people are quick to blame the ISP, but then again, ISP's are equally quick to blame something else -- anything outside of their control -- so it's a wash. Lets face it, when the ISP tells you the problem is in your house and you need some expensive stuff done to correct the problem, or they tell you the problem is the phone line and not the ISP, then wouldn't the logical approach be to switch to another ISP? That way, if the problem remains you haven't lost anything. If the problem goes away, voila, problem solved.

My ISP told me there was a problem with the phone lines in the house. I told them they were full of it, and sure enough, when I switched to another ISP all was magically fixed.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Sure, people are quick to blame the ISP, but then again, ISP's are equally quick to blame something else -- anything outside of their control -- so it's a wash. Lets face it, when the ISP tells you the problem is in your house and you need some expensive stuff done to correct the problem, or they tell you the problem is the phone line and not the ISP, then wouldn't the logical approach be to switch to another ISP? That way, if the problem remains you haven't lost anything. If the problem goes away, voila, problem solved.

My ISP told me there was a problem with the phone lines in the house. I told them they were full of it, and sure enough, when I switched to another ISP all was magically fixed.

What issue were you having, and what type of connection?
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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It's SOP for ISP's (catchy eh?) to never admit responsibility. I had dial up for many years. At least 6 different times with each of three different companies, when I had connection problems, I was told the problem was on my end. Later, when I was able to show the service folks that my problems coincided with 'maintenance' being done on their servers according to the server logs, I was told it must have been unscheduled and the techs never informed them. Yeah right!
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
^ It seems to be the policy of every company now days to never admit fault regardless of if the customer's allegations are founded in facts rather than perceptions. Getting a corporation to admit to any fault on any level these days is a near impossibility.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
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Edit: [someone I know and can't say for fear of harming his employment] works for a broadband ISP and he blames them and their practices all the time. Not buying enough bandwidth, constantly shifting regions to different nodes rather than adding capacity (customer equipment reset required*), etc.

*knocks customers offline until they call days later complaining
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
I don't mind if an issue involves something which an ISP cannot fix, but what pisses me off the most is that the CS and tech reps for most ISPs do a really poor job isolating the issue. Like PokerGuy said, they are just as quick to blame the problem on something that they cannot solve as the customer is to blame the issue on the ISP. The difference, is that the ISP is expected to be the professional on the matter, but those who they put in charge of isolating the issues have no idea what they are doing most of the time. Therefore, since one cannot rely on the ISPs to properly isolate these issues, the easiest and most efficient decision that a consumer can make is to switch ISPs. You got nothing to lose. You either end up gaining or you break even. Plus, you can always switch back if all else fails. It isn't like they are going to say no.

Of course that brings us to the real meat of the matter, which is that there is not nearly enough choices to choose from in the vast majority of places around the US. Competition is awful and the result has been degrading quality. There was a time and place when Comcast was a high quality ISP that really took that extra step to please and assist the customer. You don't see that anymore. They do not have enough competition to care. Hopefully that will change soon enough.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I don't mind if an issue involves something which an ISP cannot fix, but what pisses me off the most is that the CS and tech reps for most ISPs do a really poor job isolating the issue. Like PokerGuy said, they are just as quick to blame the problem on something that they cannot solve as the customer is to blame the issue on the ISP. The difference, is that the ISP is expected to be the professional on the matter, but those who they put in charge of isolating the issues have no idea what they are doing most of the time. Therefore, since one cannot rely on the ISPs to properly isolate these issues, the easiest and most efficient decision that a consumer can make is to switch ISPs. You got nothing to lose. You either end up gaining or you break even. Plus, you can always switch back if all else fails. It isn't like they are going to say no.

Of course that brings us to the real meat of the matter, which is that there is not nearly enough choices to choose from in the vast majority of places around the US. Competition is awful and the result has been degrading quality. There was a time and place when Comcast was a high quality ISP that really took that extra step to please and assist the customer. You don't see that anymore. They do not have enough competition to care. Hopefully that will change soon enough.

I guess I'm spoiled, because our techs are actually competent (I train them myself :) ). We've been doing this for over 11 years now, and know our stuff. The average Internet user is barely competent enough to use a door knob, much less try things like "switch to another phone jack" or "bypass your surge protector". They just want to plug it in and have it work. If it doesn't work, we can tell where it's breaking. We can see unfiltered alarm systems, filters plugged in backwards (or not at all), ground faults..you name it. People with bandwidth problems do not fall in this category---the people I'm speaking of have no concept of that. I'm also speaking from the side that our tech support is US based, so you don't have people in India reading index cards to you. With that type of tech support, if the problem isn't covered in their flow chart of troubleshooting, they say it's your problem and hang up.

To the person that had problems during scheduled maintenance, if your ISP is taking down major systems more than once/week for maintenance, there's something seriously wrong with their engineering dept.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I don't mind if an issue involves something which an ISP cannot fix, but what pisses me off the most is that the CS and tech reps for most ISPs do a really poor job isolating the issue. Like PokerGuy said, they are just as quick to blame the problem on something that they cannot solve as the customer is to blame the issue on the ISP. The difference, is that the ISP is expected to be the professional on the matter, but those who they put in charge of isolating the issues have no idea what they are doing most of the time. Therefore, since one cannot rely on the ISPs to properly isolate these issues, the easiest and most efficient decision that a consumer can make is to switch ISPs. You got nothing to lose. You either end up gaining or you break even. Plus, you can always switch back if all else fails. It isn't like they are going to say no.

Of course that brings us to the real meat of the matter, which is that there is not nearly enough choices to choose from in the vast majority of places around the US. Competition is awful and the result has been degrading quality. There was a time and place when Comcast was a high quality ISP that really took that extra step to please and assist the customer. You don't see that anymore. They do not have enough competition to care. Hopefully that will change soon enough.

I guess I'm spoiled, because our techs are actually competent (I train them myself :) ). We've been doing this for over 11 years now, and know our stuff. The average Internet user is barely competent enough to use a door knob, much less try things like "switch to another phone jack" or "bypass your surge protector". They just want to plug it in and have it work. If it doesn't work, we can tell where it's breaking. We can see unfiltered alarm systems, filters plugged in backwards (or not at all), ground faults..you name it. People with bandwidth problems do not fall in this category---the people I'm speaking of have no concept of that. I'm also speaking from the side that our tech support is US based, so you don't have people in India reading index cards to you. With that type of tech support, if the problem isn't covered in their flow chart of troubleshooting, they say it's your problem and hang up.

To the person that had problems during scheduled maintenance, if your ISP is taking down major systems more than once/week for maintenance, there's something seriously wrong with their engineering dept.

Being spoiled with quality CS makes a world of difference. These days, it almost feels like divine intervention when I find a company with consistent and rock solid CS considering how rare it is. Making the switch to DirecTV made me feel that way. :)
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
This post might have been relevant in 1990. People no longer use dialup.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: CKent
This post might have been relevant in 1990. People no longer use dialup.

Wow are you wrong. Over 30% of the US is still on dial-up, and either can't upgrade or doesn't want to pay the extra cash. In fact, 65% of our customers are still on dial-up.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Originally posted by: CKent
This post might have been relevant in 1990. People no longer use dialup.

Wow are you wrong. Over 30% of the US is still on dial-up, and either can't upgrade or doesn't want to pay the extra cash. In fact, 65% of our customers are still on dial-up.

Eh...I don't know if it is quite that high anymore. This thread inspired me to look that kind of info up earlier and the data I found was pretty much consistent with the info in this link which includes a chart too.

10% of all Americans have Dial Up and it is going down fast
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Originally posted by: CKent
This post might have been relevant in 1990. People no longer use dialup.

Wow are you wrong. Over 30% of the US is still on dial-up, and either can't upgrade or doesn't want to pay the extra cash. In fact, 65% of our customers are still on dial-up.

Eh...I don't know if it is quite that high anymore. This thread inspired me to look that kind of info up earlier and the data I found was pretty much consistent with the info in this link which includes a chart too.

10% of all Americans have Dial Up and it is going down fast

It depends on the area of the country. The midwest is still dial-up rich, and our dial-up products have increased greatly nationwide, despite DSL being available for under $20/month (probably due to the economy). The latest stats for our areas show a 30% hold as of July 29, 2008.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
I guess I can't blame my ISP either when their DNS server crapped and I have intermittent connection issues.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Originally posted by: SSSnail
I guess I can't blame my ISP either when their DNS server crapped and I have intermittent connection issues.

Again, this is not a common issue. If it were common, that particular ISP would not be around very long. My OP is about how most reported connectivity issues are based around a customer's environment, yet they blame the service.