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the truth about INTEL vs AMD

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What are we fighting for!!.........................................................................................................................................oh yea intel and amd.
/me goes back to sleep
 
NOS: do you trust me so little that i have to back up all my information with links?? Please keep in mind that I used prices that I EXPECT to be upon the P4's actual entry into the market in about 3 weeks. If I use CURRENT prices P4 is over $1000. I'm sure you don't want that.

DDR memory: $200

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1357&p=2
2 x 128MB DDR SDRAM: $200

2 x 128MB DRDRAM = $400 (ok- I was off by $50)

AMD760 chipsets cost $2 more than KT133 chipsets do now. Production costs will be about $10 more. Current lowest price on KT133 is $89. Add $10 to ensure you geta quality brand name then $12 increased costs, plus $10 padding and you get my figure. Maybe an i850 board could be shaved down to $220 but the chipset itself costs the manufacturer $80 (almost 3x other chipsets) and is more expensive to produce than i840 (quad pump bus) making me expect closer to $300 at first.
Some/most of this info is from:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1358&p=7

TBird 1.2Ghz. $488 with a heavy price drop expected on Monday- probably actually less than $450.

P4?? $950? I think that's the 1000 unit volume sale price, am I wrong? That's just a guess what it will be after the "its new" stir dies down. I'm giving Intel the benefit of the doubt that they won't pull another 'papermine' on us.

Zephyer your statement would mean something if I was a person that goes out and always buy's the latest speed grade proccessor. But like most Overclockers I alway's buy the lower grades and OC them to close to the highest grade so the top of the line mhz wise doesn't mean anything to me.
PRECICELY- now you're starting to understand.

Even the cC0 stepping of the PIII can't break 1.13Ghz and it is VERY rare to reach even that. The best candidate for running 1gig+ is the PIII-850 that will do 1066 with 133mhz FSB. Most 1GHz Athlons (priced comparable to the PIII-850) will run 1.2Ghz. Same price, 200MHz faster with the AMD.

I could go into the technicals of the bin splits but here's my brief thought i think Intel's yeild sigma (standard deviation) is lower than AMD's due to the extreme tweaking that has gone into the PIII core and their process technology. I believe Intel's median speed grade is about 800MHz compared to AMDs being about 950MHz. The tighter yeild sigma on the Intel side means better overclocking from the low end chips but worse overclocking in the high-end areas. Meaning a 533 is much more likely to run 900 but an 850 is less likely to run 1.1Ghz. The higher mean on the AMD camp means that their low-end chips are more likely to have been actually 'rated' at a higher speed but remarked to compete economically and that you will have much more success with the extra high-end chips. Note: I'm talkig about their Copper Process. Their Alum. process looks very similar to Intels with perhaps a 50MHz higher median on the Duron core.

Time for me to go.

We can end this now: I can see I'm not going to convince you so this is futile.

We agree to disagree.

Eric



 
NOS

"Zephyer your statement would mean something if I was a person that goes out and always buy's the latest speed grade proccessor. But like most Overclockers I alway's buy the lower grades and OC them to close to the highest grade so the top of the line mhz wise doesn't mean anything to me."

Good for you.. I'll remember that one for when the P4 comes out 🙂

"Also the performance of quake 3 when the processor and all system resources are stetched to there limits is where the boy's are seperated from the men and means everything to me. hell most of the apps we all use like web browsing and such work fine on a 500 mhz processor it the graphics apps and games that really use the Processor the most and what count to me."

Good so please tell me.. where do you get more FPS pr. $ you spend.. Intel or AMD? 😀

"So in both cases AMD loses hands down which is proven over and over in market share LOL!!!!!!!!!1"

I wish you'd realize there's a thing called fab. capacity

"IaPuP I guess your right you didn't start it back up Zephyer did sorry I opened your email notice first and just assumed you started it back up/ It was dead and burried for 2 days"

Yes I reopened the thread.. so sue me!!!

Frustrated:

"Zephyr I really wish that I could take your posts seriously. It would really help if you would realize that there is no such thing as a syntethic benchmarks"

Ah yes that's funny.. see the thing is that while what you point out was a typo, your error was hardly a such since you managed to write "1.12" twice and then suggest it could be o/c'ed to "1.16" or 1.18" .. what are we o/c'ing 40 and 60 MHz now? 😀



 


<< Besides the P-4 is coming in monday and going to steam roll over the T-Bird in no time so watch out. Again I'm sure that the T-Bird will win at Mflops and synthetic benchmarks LAMO !!!!!! >>



Anandtech - P4 Review
Read it and weep. Seems like the P4 has a hard time rolling over the 1.2Ghz Tbird(which is 300mhz slower). The only thing that is steaming is the huge P4 heatsink.

 
Thanks dexion for posting this link to anands p4 review.
I was reading this thread and couldnt wait till someone mentioned the review.
Basically p4=crap in anands eyes and i believe him.
He ran so many tests my eyes hurt after reading.
The p4 gets smoked by the thunderbirds in almost every meaningful bench. I love it!
I had intel for years and was waiting for some real competition, well we have it now.
The only thing intel can do now is market market market cause they are gonna get raped for a while by amd. P3-cant do anything over 1ghz p4-just rots T-bird-great performance and very scalable(cheap too). I can't see how these intel zealots can justify there faith in intel knowing that a ddr t-bird is the fastest, cheapest and most scalable arcitecture available for the next year?
It boggles the mind.
Anyway maybe now that anand has set them straight they will see the amd light like i did.
just my 2 cents
 
I guess we have a conflict of interest tho! NOS only buys stuff that runs Quake3 at the hottest speeds possible (Pentium 4) but it sucks clock for clock! Oh the horror.
 
This is going to hurt:

Intel Pentium 4 1.4 GHz OEM $950.00
Intel Pentium 4 1.5 GHz OEM $1,176.00

Motherboard:
Intel D850GB i850 $265.00

Samsung PC800 RAMBUS 128MB $280.00
Samsung PC800 RAMBUS 128MB $280.00

These are price quotes from GamePC. Not necessarily the cheapest, but look at the price of the motherboard! Ouch!

Remember all those complaints raised about having to upgrade your power supply? Yeah, you're going to have to do that again now too. Oh, and a new case too!
 


<< I never stated that the 1.2 ghz Athlon was slower than a 1 GHZ P-3. I stated Clock for clock in real world Apps that I use IT IS SLOWER !!!!! those are the facts. The Athlon is way faster at synthetic Benchmarks and Applications that most people don't ever use the P-3 is faster in the Apps that Mater to me and most PC users. >>


Face it NOS, you can never compare to a Athlon 1.2Ghz with a P3 since the P3 will never have a 1.2Ghz counterpart. The P6 core has reached the end of its line(with the 1.13Ghz to prove it), going to 0.13m or 0.10m process is way too expensive compared to how much more Mhz they can squeeze into this aging core. You can argue clock for clock all you want, the P3 won't have any higher clock speeds as Intel will be phasing them out for P4. Unfortunately, the P4 isn't that impressive neither. AMD's Palomino and Clawhammer is looking better and better.

 
I will say this since no one is allowed to make mistakes around here (ie. me 1.12 etc....)🙂I would never pay that much for a computer period (which would be a huge mistake)Intel or AMD, and don't think NOS would either for that matter.
As for the powersupply well I won't have to buy a new one to run the p4 nor will NOS as we have just received 2 enermaxs that have been in the RMA process for the last month or so. These new enermax powersupplies come with the extra 4 pin connector that the p4 requires. But once again the prices are going to have go way down or I won't even consider owning one🙂

At that price I definately would become an AMD ZEALOT🙂
 
hey its YOU that resort to name callings for obvious reasons. just get over it, quit changing your stance.... intel cpu is just of less value at similar performance. if UT and mdk2 are sythentic benchmarks, then how the hell 3dmark2k isnt? stop posting for a second, have a beer or drag, take a deep breath. come back and reread what blunder you have typed and appologize. thank you.
 
hrmm... NOS is absent all of a sudden... maybe just not back from school =).. anyway, i figure this is a good place to say this. The p4 proc. gets mopped by the 1.2ghz tbird, plain and simple. Q3a runs good because of dual channel pc800 rambus, w/o that and its qdr bus... it would get eaten in q3 as well. The cpu is lame, the bus/chipset is what make it what it is. All people comparing p4 v. athlon need to realize this... its not all about the cpu, infact its chipset is more important.

alin
 


<< I will say this since no one is allowed to make mistakes around here (ie. me 1.12 etc....)I would never pay that much for a computer period (which would be a huge mistake)Intel or AMD, and don't think NOS would either for that matter. >>



Well, why pay so much for such crappy performance?
 
ok- now I have to side with NOS.

People are scurrying in to talk about how the TBird is &quot;mopping&quot; the P4. This simply isn't the case.

If I were to go out on a limb, I would say that their OVERALL performance is quite equal (1.2Ghz TBird vs 1.5Ghz P4). The P4 actually may come out slightly ahead. I have to hand it to Intel for a good CPU- especially Tom's overclocking success!! amazing.

NOS: I will not back down that the Athlon beats the PIII on ALL COUNTS but now that we've seen hard numbers on the Athlon, the P4 wins (strictly performance) but I'm still going to recommend the Athlon because of platform support, price, availability and upgradability.

Eric
 
Just so you all know I just returned home from work and havn't had time to read thru the reviews as of yet so I will reply to your on slaughts at a later time. Some people do work for a living.
 
Uhhhh? iapup did you read anands review? It clearly shows a 1.2 t-bird with 760 chipset beating the p4 in 80% of the benches the only gaming bench the p4 wins is q3 which is sse enhanced and not 3dnow enhanced(well it is but not to the extent of sse). Read it and be objective and you can see in all the games (other than q3) it beats the higher clocked p4 and in almost if not all other benches?
What were you reading?
hehehehe clock for clock amd spanks p4 (p4 has little red bum now)
I do hope that intel comes out with better performers soon or they may end up like 3dfx kings who got cocky and then dethroned. Its good for all of us to have good competition.
And when intel has good price performance again i will buy one.
 
First: clock for clock doesn't matter for $hit.

Second: Never rely on just one source.

I was most impressed by the quality of the reviews at Tom's and Ace's. Anands was ok but he does weird thing by avoiding certain compilers and such. Go look over the reviews at Ace's hardware. That site is run by experienced computer engineers and they know a lot more about how stuff is supposed to work. They also have a GREAT analysis in the conclusions section.

Frankly, the P4 kicks the Athlon's butt in MP3/MPEG encoding and Q3A which are probably the two most common CPU intensive tasks. The Athlon comes very close or wins in many other tests. The P4 wins in almost all of the Spec tests but gets destroyed in the 3D visualization studios and such.

Both CPUs are so different that you can't pin down which is faster. Just which is faster for a specific use.

Eric

 
IaPup that was very well thought out and fair reply's. I'm not recomending the P-4 yet either.


I will have to admit I just read anandtech's review and was very dismayed. Than I read Tom's and became very enlightened. I'm not about to go out and buy one and never had any thoughts to that end. But I do beleive I will have one before the end of next year. the numbers from alot of the benchmark to say the least suck but I think most of you guy's need to read between the lines. The P-4 is the future and so is Rdram. I copied and pasted a bunch of things from both reviews that caught my eye. So here they are !!

Quotes from Anandtech Review



?In spite of using the same memory controller as the i840 chipset, the Pentium 4 on the i850 chipset holds a 75% performance advantage over even the fastest AMD 760 DDR platform.?



?However it is hard to believe that the AMD 760's 266MHz bus isn't enough to do at least the same.?


?The only remaining explanation points us in the direction of the Pentium 4's architecture itself. As you're sure to see in benchmarks floating around, the Pentium 4 will do quite well in SPECfp_2000?


?A major factor for the Pentium 4's performance will be the 400MHz bus, especially as games increase in complexity and the amount of data being sent to and from the CPU increases.?



Quotes from Tom?s Hardware


?Many of the overclockers of this world were afraid that Pentium 4's quad-pumped 100 MHz bus would make bus overclocking of this processor as difficult and restrictive as with Athlon and its dual-pumped 133/100 MHz-bus. I can bring you the surprisingly positive news that Pentium 4 is as overclockable as Intel processors always have been. You can imagine that the multiplier of official Pentium 4 processors will be locked, but with a good P4-motherboard you won't have any problems overclocking the bus.

I took advantage of the jumperless-mode of the Asus P4T-motherboard and managed to let two different Pentium 4 processors run at up to 125 MHz bus clock. I even included a 1.4 GHz Pentium 4 overclocked to 14 x 115 MHz = 1610 MHz as well as the evaluation 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 overclocked to 16 x 108 MHz = 1728 MHz in the benchmark results. I only had to raise the voltage from 1.7 to 1.8 V. There was no thermal issue, as Pentium 4 heat sinks are already designed for much higher heat dissipation than what current Pentium 4 processors are actually able to produce.?




?Although Intel claims that Pentium 4 has the worlds best floating point performance we know that in reality the normal FPU of Pentium 4 is hardly even able to live up to Pentium III standards. Only floating point applications that use SSE2 could possibly support Intel's bold claim. Today's standard software is obviously not yet SSE2-optimized, so that standard FPU-intensive software will probably run rather slow on Pentium 4 systems.?



This is what Tom say?s about sysmark 2000
?What does this result mean to us? Not much really. Office applications haven't been a challenge to any of the processors that were released within the last 12 months?
?The lead of Pentium 4 is reduced but not lost when it's running the complex NVIDIA NV15-level. The processor needs to compute a whole lot of FP-stuff and so far Quake 3 doesn't take any advantage of SSE2. Still, Pentium 4 is looking good?




?You might remember the recent article about AMD's 760 chipset. I wrote that I consider the MPEG4-test the overall most important processor benchmark, because the scores in this benchmark make a really noticeable difference to the computer user. We are talking of hours of waiting that can be saved with a well performing processor.
I bet that Intel loves this benchmark, because Pentium 4 performs really well here. Even the slowest Pentium 4 is able to beat the competitor from Sunnyvale.
This result shows what Pentium 4 was designed for. It seems that Intel is taking more care of 3D-gamers and DVD-Rippers than of office workers. Pentium 4 doesn't want to be working class?


?You can see that the memory speed does indeed have a major impact on all the benchmark results except of the 3D Studio Max scores. In some cases the difference between the slowest and the fastest score is more than 10%! This proves clearly that Pentium 4 lives from the high memory bandwidth that RDRAM is finally able to deliver. Keep that in mind in case someone wants to sell you PC600 RDRAM!?



Toms remarks ??.
?Intel seems very determined to make Pentium 4 a success and I have the feeling that it will succeed. The implementation of SSE2-instructions into future software as well as the usage of code-optimizing compilers for Pentium 4 will make sure that Pentium 4 will be standing in a much better light very soon. However, I believe that Pentium 4's strongest side is its clock speed potential. Just realize that I overclocked this brand new 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 to beyond 1.7 GHz without any problems. I don't care whatever the latest roadmap of Intel may be saying. I am certain that Intel will deliver very fast Pentium 4 processors very soon. Intel has finally won back the ability to make AMD's life a lot harder.
What do I think of the components around Pentium 4? I have got to admit it, but with Pentium 4 Rambus is finally able to deliver for the first time. If you look at Pentium 4's design closely enough, you can see that it's engineered to live with RDRAM in perfect harmony. The memory benchmarks from above show that Pentium 4 really requires the 3,200 MB/s of data bandwidth supplied by the two Rambus channels. I doubt that it will perform as well with DDR-SDRAM, unless two channels will be used. One DDR-SDRAM channel offers 'only' 2,122 MB/s of data bandwidth, which might make quite a difference with Pentium 4.
The new power supply and housing requirements for Pentium 4 might be a nuisance to some, but they make perfect sense. I hope that AMD will follow Intel's example and come up with some solid new specifications for Athlon-platforms as well.
I personally really like Pentium 4. It's a bit like getting designer furniture. You don't really need it, but it's damn cool to have it. Don't buy Pentium 4 unless you feel like this. If you can spend the extra bucks and like the strengths of Pentium 4 without minding the little weaknesses (e.g. x87 floating point applications) you maybe want to consider it. If you are on a budget or your system is a hard working platform that's required to make you money, I'd rather go for the really working class kind of processor by the name of Athlon.
Pentium 4 at 1.4 GHz goes for $644, Pentium 4 at 1.5 GHz costs $819 right now. It's not exactly a bargain, but, hey, who really cares about price if it really is all about style?


Now guys look at more than the numbers and you will see why I say the P-4 is going to steam roll over the Athlon.
 
To balance this argument, an equal number of quotes could be found to back up the Athlon. Its a matter of opinion. I think MPEG encoding is important. I don't play Quake. My roomate is a graphics guy and runs 3D Studio and other modelling programs but he plays Quake too... *shrug* different stuff.

Let me point out an article that I wrote a little under a year ago. I never put it on any of the major review sites because I couldn't get Tom's permission to use his benchmarks.

Future memory standards

Eric
 
first time i'm reading this part of the forums and i can say the intel vs amd discussions here SUCK. one person who says a bunch of non-fact things vs others. i'm glad you people don't visit general hardware 😛
 
Intel sucks, GeForce sucks. Need I say more?

-GW (doesn't even bother to check back because there are too many replies to sift through)
 
&quot;isn't it time you got some &quot;hooked on phonics&quot;? &quot;

thanks for the good laugh :^D
 
Interesting reading NOS looks like the p4 will be something to reckon with in the near future🙂

Brotherman I am not changing my stance!!! I merely stated that I thought if anyone at this time bought a p4 for that kind of money it would be a mistake. I have a p3 system and am going to stay with a p3 system whether you think its a good value or not. If in the future the p4 doesn't come down in price then I may be forced into buying an AMD based system. Thats all I said and meant to say so you go have a beer, drag, shot in the arm, or whatever it is that you do and read the whole thread before you jump in and post.
 
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